BANNED! But Is There Still Hope?

[Rispa]

I can see that side of the argument, yes. However, it very well could turn this hobby into a 1% one meaning only a few can actually afford it. Few fish are already there then let us take a look at the designer corals that someone slaps a fancy sticker on then adds a couple digits to the price tag. Don't get me wrong I know it is about choices and I'm just has guilty with my many vices. Just trying to separate out the conscientious aquarist (after all Fenner wrote a great book on it) who is doing the right thing suddenly getting thrown out of a hobby due to a increase in animal life. I consider it collateral damage and I hate to see those people get caught up in this.

As with life there are many factors in play here many of which most of us will never know. I personally just try to do the right thing and treat all my animals has family pets. I know it sounds silly but it keeps me honest at least.

If a person buys a clownfish for $1 they probably aren't going to want to shell out for the best food and environment. However if that clownfish costs $50+, then $20 for the better food for a month doesn't seem so bad. Also I don't think the poor should have pets. It's less of an issue in the aquarium hobby, but if the pet gets sick they don't have the means to take care of it. Also chances are they don't have the means to give them optimal care. Now middle class and up has disposable income. As such if they really want that Gem tang they will find a way to afford it whether savings, credit card, or some other method is involved. This will be true if the prices rise on something like a clownfish.

 

[User1]

If a person buys a clownfish for $1 they probably aren't going to want to shell out for the best food and environment. However if that clownfish costs $50+, then $20 for the better food for a month doesn't seem so bad. Also I don't think the poor should have pets. It's less of an issue in the aquarium hobby, but if the pet gets sick they don't have the means to take care of it. Also chances are they don't have the means to give them optimal care. Now middle class and up has disposable income. As such if they really want that Gem tang they will find a way to afford it whether savings, credit card, or some other method is involved. This will be true if the prices rise on something like a clownfish.

This isn't about who should or shouldn't have - it is more of a question about the price of xenia or a yellow tang for example to the price of the gem tang you mentioned. I've personally seen homeless (poor) people take better car of animals than most people. But we are getting off topic here for sure which isn't my intent. There is a somewhat understandable price for some items in saltwater aquarium like the gem tang you mentioned, or other elusive / limited fish. It isn't the case with most captive bred or readily available propagated corals.

I get it that there is a huge up front cost in the RnD aspect of tank raised fish - much like, although not to the same degree, of pharmaceutical RnD. So people want their ROI...

 

[chefjpaul]

Anything that is perceived to negatively impact the environment (real or not) is political fodder these days. Right or wrong, this hobby will be in the crosshairs of some groups. Re-seeding reefs, employing locals, conservation efforts, etc won't matter to some people, because they are viscerally against the concept, and no fact will get in the way of an emotion for them.

In the end, I think the hobby will evolve into much more aquaculture on a large scale. When forced, suppliers will become better at captive breeding tricky fishes, aquaculturing delicate coral,seeding dead rock, etc. Ultimately (somewhat cynically), I think countries will also put reelection & govt profit before supposed moral stances. If they make more money from ecotourism, etc, coral collecting will be banned. If it costs them money and votes, bans will be lifted. Like everyone else here, I think this may just be a debate over how to best polish the brass on the Titanic. Other factors seem to be destroying wild reefs at an incredible rate - well beyond any impact coral collecting (or collection bans) may have.

Good point.

It's definitely an image thing relating to the hobby in a negative way, whether ones belief is good, bad, or indifferent.

 

[AquaDaddy]

I find this discussion very interesting. Relatively speaking, I'm fairly new to the hobby, having really only paid attention to what and how we should maintain our tanks in the past year. But, for almost 10 ye now, we've had a tank in our house, and I never paid attention like I do now. About a year ago, my wife and I had a discussion around the fish tank. The discussion was simply "are we going to go all in and really try to care for a tank like we should, or should we stop fooling ourselves trying to maintain the tank with little attention to what it takes to really maintain a living reef." In the previous years, it was more of our son's fish tank, and basically let him do what he wanted, but, in defense of him, didn't really support him the way we should have - and that's totally on us.

Now, we have done tons of reading, watching videos, researching and learning so much about keeping fish and corals. In the past, I just assumed things sold to me would be successful, both fish and corals. Assumed when I was told that a canister filter on a 90 gallon would work fine with little to no maintenance, for example. Oh, and maybe it will, but didn't for me. I wasn't giving the hobby the time AND resources needed. So, as mentioned earlier we went all in. Why the short story? Well, because in the past I never seemed to really care about the fact that these fish and those corals are all living beings and it's my job as a Reef Keeper to do what I can to care for these animals. Does everyone who has a tank feel that way? Do some people throw away beautiful and healthy fish because they found another hobby, didn't have time, or weren't successful? Absolutely. I think there in lies a fundamental flaw we have in reef/fish keeping. We call it a hobby. Is it? I like to play with RC boats. When I crash one, I just buy replacement parts and go on about my business. No worries, right? That's the way it is with most hobbies. Is that okay to do with live animals or is that even a hobby? you don't hear of folks trying to ban RC cars/boats/planes, gaming, fishing, woodworking, home brewing, etc... When we put a different lens on it, does it make it less or more important on it's relationship to our environment? Someone earlier mentioned about optics, yes they matter,to the keeper and those that watch the keeper.

 

[Muttley000]

People in general won't tend to care about conserving something they don't identify with. Aquariums are the only exposure many people will have to coral and many sea creatures. The people with the aquarium hobby in thier crosshairs probably don't understand that, but if they do it is not as important as furthering their political agenda! Most all single issue groups are not to be unilaterally trusted.

 

[Rispa]

People in general won't tend to care about conserving something they don't identify with. Aquariums are the only exposure many people will have to coral and many sea creatures. The people with the aquarium hobby in thier crosshairs probably don't understand that, but if they do it is not as important as furthering their political agenda! Most all single issue groups are not to be unilaterally trusted.

Yes! This is very very true!

 

[ReefWithCare]

Alright so no one has brought his up yet —- but didn’t over collections nearly wipe out
The banggai cardinalfish?

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/09/wildlife-banggai-cardinalfish-trade-cites-protections/

 

[Rispa]

Alright so no one has brought his up yet —- but didn’t over collections nearly wipe out
The banggai cardinalfish?

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/09/wildlife-banggai-cardinalfish-trade-cites-protections/

That was a good read. It sounds like CITIES is slacking and we need more work on breeding these guys. Actually this sounds like the perfect starting species for experimenting and creating a sustainable population in captivity

 

[shred5]

ORA could never keep up with demand they are way to small. Fish would be hundreds of dollar if not more. Do people even realise how many fish are collected for the hobby? The hobby is world wide, not just the USA. Just yellow tangs collected from Hawaii is around 400,000. That is just the yellow tang can you imagine the total fish taken from there? That is now gone. I just saw a chevron tang go for 500.00 on La and it is ugly and especially as a adult. Thats the imapct this is having already.

https://reefbuilders.com/2016/11/14/truth-yellow-tang-collecting-hawaii/

 

[Sunny Goold]

I think the real reason for these moves by politicians / Governments is that it's an easy win for them. They can say they are doing something for the environment whilst they hurt an industry that doesn't matter to them whilst continuing to line their pockets from the big industries that do all the damage.
Most of the big players in the industry (in my view) focuses on protecting their own niche instead of growing the hobby, lobbying as one and creating what should be an amazing future. I mean look at the amazing community our hobby is. I'm sure the big players could all get together and start standing up against these decisions - they could make a great commercial argument to a State like Hawaii and the amount of signatures etc from this community would have a big impact.

I am not so much concerned with bans in individual countries / states for collection. Many smaller nations will take advantage of this and the industry does have a great story to tell. There needs to be a push from the industry to improve standards. Like Cyanide testing should be standard on every fish import and the industry should really be demanding that and the hobbyists would line up behind. I don't know but I would be surprised if Cairns Marine hasn't worked hard with the Australian Government - it's an incredible story in the worlds biggest nanny state. Biota is also doing incredible stuff.

But if the industry doesn't lead these things (that may push prices up a little but will result in much higher survival rates) then States are going to move to the next step as Mike says - start banning imports at the airports.

Also Governments are clearly under pressure. The thing that annoys me most is that the planet has massive environmental issues. The big 4 that threaten the oceans is global warming, acidification, pollution (nutrients and plastics) and massive overfishing. Collecting 400,000 yellow tangs from Hawaii each year is certainly not an impact in comparison to the big 4 - but environmentalists want to focus on it and other things like Orca's at Seaworld.

So I feel like we need to grow this hobby and the industry needs to start stepping up and leading positive change. For me it's not just about a standard for collection practices. As a beginner doing my first build I don't have much money at all but I have time and passion. I'd certainly pay double for tank raised fish.

I think wild collection should be heavily restricted. Licenses should only be given to companies that prove that they can propagate the animals. That keeps wild reefs safe (yes, reefing does hurt reefs just not as much as other human activity) while allowing for replenishment of genetic diversity and new species to the hobby.

Of course an intelligent ban is unlikely to ever happen.


$$$$

Those industries have the money to influence policy. The pet industry rarely does.

I agree with this but the industry could have sway - it just chooses not to. And if the industry decided to work together and lead on these standards there could be an "intelligent ban" as you call it based around really strong collection standards - I mean they are already in existence but the industry could be proactive, asking they be applied to all fish imported and on having other countries like in the Pacific.

I'm just saying there is an opportunity here and we need to push for positive changes and the industry needs to be seen as leading this - otherwise we will just have more blanket bans forced upon us. It would be good if we could actually convince environmentalists to focus on saving the worlds oceans rather than picking on our hobby which I am sure does more good than harm.

 

[shred5]

I think the real reason for these moves by politicians / Governments is that it's an easy win for them. They can say they are doing something for the environment whilst they hurt an industry that doesn't matter to them whilst continuing to line their pockets from the big industries that do all the damage.
Most of the big players in the industry (in my view) focuses on protecting their own niche instead of growing the hobby, lobbying as one and creating what should be an amazing future. I mean look at the amazing community our hobby is. I'm sure the big players could all get together and start standing up against these decisions - they could make a great commercial argument to a State like Hawaii and the amount of signatures etc from this community would have a big impact.

I am not so much concerned with bans in individual countries / states for collection. Many smaller nations will take advantage of this and the industry does have a great story to tell. There needs to be a push from the industry to improve standards. Like Cyanide testing should be standard on every fish import and the industry should really be demanding that and the hobbyists would line up behind. I don't know but I would be surprised if Cairns Marine hasn't worked hard with the Australian Government - it's an incredible story in the worlds biggest nanny state. Biota is also doing incredible stuff.

But if the industry doesn't lead these things (that may push prices up a little but will result in much higher survival rates) then States are going to move to the next step as Mike says - start banning imports at the airports.

Also Governments are clearly under pressure. The thing that annoys me most is that the planet has massive environmental issues. The big 4 that threaten the oceans is global warming, acidification, pollution (nutrients and plastics) and massive overfishing. Collecting 400,000 yellow tangs from Hawaii each year is certainly not an impact in comparison to the big 4 - but environmentalists want to focus on it and other things like Orca's at Seaworld.

So I feel like we need to grow this hobby and the industry needs to start stepping up and leading positive change. For me it's not just about a standard for collection practices. As a beginner doing my first build I don't have much money at all but I have time and passion. I'd certainly pay double for tank raised fish.



I agree with this but the industry could have sway - it just chooses not to. And if the industry decided to work together and lead on these standards there could be an "intelligent ban" as you call it based around really strong collection standards - I mean they are already in existence but the industry could be proactive, asking they be applied to all fish imported and on having other countries like in the Pacific.

I'm just saying there is an opportunity here and we need to push for positive changes and the industry needs to be seen as leading this - otherwise we will just have more blanket bans forced upon us. It would be good if we could actually convince environmentalists to focus on saving the worlds oceans rather than picking on our hobby which I am sure does more good than harm.

I agree with allot of what you said.

It is not necessarily governments shutting down collection it is regulating agencies in some cases.


As far as smaller places opening up to collection there is not much left. These are not the first bans we have had, these are just big ones and it is now starting to affect the hobby. When Fiji gets band it is not just the island of Fiji it is all the Fijian islands, same as Indonesia, Palau or Marshal islands, these are areas. That is allot of places right there.

Opening a new facility aint cheap it requires access to a airport and electricity. Building holding and shipping facilities.. We are going to see more bans than new places opening. Some areas should have bans or smaller limits and some shouldn't..

Biota and ORA have been doing good things but they got to be a little worried right now with what happened to Walt since they have facilities on other island too... These small government can change their mind on a whim and shut them down too. Remember Walt was pretty much aquaculture too just not fish or clams. The reason they go to these places like Fiji and Palau is it is cheap and easy access to resources.


I do not get the industry. Place like Marine Depot, BRS, lfs, Deltec, Reef clubs, Macna, distributors, forums, etc. stand to loose allot. You think they would at least be concerned a little.

You know I have donated to support the reefs and so has WRS and others, the sad part is sometimes that money is used against the hobby.

You are right this hobby can do so much better even if it costs us more.

I hate to say it some of it is greasing the right palms and being funded. Some of it is just flat out bribing the right person in the right seat.

 

[OriginalUserName]

I

I'm just saying there is an opportunity here and we need to push for positive changes and the industry needs to be seen as leading this - otherwise we will just have more blanket bans forced upon us. It would be good if we could actually convince environmentalists to focus on saving the worlds oceans rather than picking on our hobby which I am sure does more good than harm.

Generally, if you don't regulate yourself, somebody else will do it for you.

 

[Sunny Goold]

I agree with allot of what you said.

It is not necessarily governments shutting down collection it is regulating agencies in some cases.


As far as smaller places opening up to collection there is not much left. These are not the first bans we have had, these are just big ones and it is now starting to affect the hobby. When Fiji gets band it is not just the island of Fiji it is all the Fijian islands, same as Indonesia, Palau or Marshal islands, these are areas. That is allot of places right there.

Opening a new facility aint cheap it requires access to a airport and electricity. Building holding and shipping facilities.. We are going to see more bans than new places opening. Some areas should have bans or smaller limits and some shouldn't..

Biota and ORA have been doing good things but they got to be a little worried right now with what happened to Walt since they have facilities on other island too... These small government can change their mind on a whim and shut them down too. Remember Walt was pretty much aquaculture too just not fish or clams. The reason they go to these places like Fiji and Palau is it is cheap and easy to resources.


I do not get the industry. Place like Marine Depot, BRS, lfs, Deltec, Reef clubs, Macna, distributors, forums, etc. stand to loose allot. You think they would at least be concerned a little.

You know I have donated to support the reefs and so has WRS and others, the sad part is sometimes that money is used against the hobby.

You are right this hobby can do so much better even if it costs us more.

I hate to say it some of it is greasing the right palms and being funded. Some of it is just flat out bribing the right person in the right seat.

This is really well written and you have convinced me on the parts you differ on. There's a lot of people / companies who stand to lose a lot. I was more talking about the manufacturers - maybe they are doing something but I feel they would benefit from more collaboration. This should be a huge focus for them - If beginners can only buy clownfish, a couple of blennies and some small frags that will take more than a year to grow into something decent then there will be no one buying their controllers, pumps, skimmers and lights.

[I just deleted a whole bunch of stuff that is so frustrating as a beginner despite the love I get from the community].

Anyway these manufacturers need to ask themselves if they want to exist in 5 years. Their current strategy means this is a small hobby where only the truly dedicated succeed. They need to think about reefing as an ecosystem. As each key creature in the web is killed the ecosystem becomes less resilient. Want to know why we are so vulnerable? Because the number of people who succeeded in the hobby are exceeded by the number of people who spent huge money only for everything to die.

But I can also see an ecosystem that is much stronger in 5 years. The technology is now here to make this hobby accessible. The manufacturers need to say - we don't need each beginner spending >$5k to get into the hobby because the more people who find it easy to succeed the more they will upgrade. This is why I think Biota is really onto something - the whole industry should get behind it. I can imagine the industry building out from Biota so there is actually an easy progression for those who want to upgrade. The industry can say - we want these standards for equipment, livestock and to support local stores. Then they can go to Governments proactively and put forward their case and they will have our backing. They could tell a great story. Suddenly instead of the story being "I spent all this money and everything died" it becomes this magical thing that "oh... how cool is it that you can actually keep these creatures today and it's one industry that actually stands together and protects the resources they rely on". Someone earlier said something like reefing should be exclusive - and it sounded right to me. But it's wrong. If the hobby doubles and the majority can succeed and the whole reefing community is demanding our oceans be protected then it will look stupid to everyone if some state or country still his has a blanket ban. Aquaculture and Mariculture will be huge, countries will want the industry and the manufacturers will be in a much stronger position.

The great thing is we have this community - everyone is willing to help (probably because everyone who made it remembers the gauntlet they had to run to find success). There's nothing better than a strong community for an industry to build off (and change it's image).

 

[Rispa]

I agree with allot of what you said.

It is not necessarily governments shutting down collection it is regulating agencies in some cases.


As far as smaller places opening up to collection there is not much left. These are not the first bans we have had, these are just big ones and it is now starting to affect the hobby. When Fiji gets band it is not just the island of Fiji it is all the Fijian islands, same as Indonesia, Palau or Marshal islands, these are areas. That is allot of places right there.

Opening a new facility aint cheap it requires access to a airport and electricity. Building holding and shipping facilities.. We are going to see more bans than new places opening. Some areas should have bans or smaller limits and some shouldn't..

Biota and ORA have been doing good things but they got to be a little worried right now with what happened to Walt since they have facilities on other island too... These small government can change their mind on a whim and shut them down too. Remember Walt was pretty much aquaculture too just not fish or clams. The reason they go to these places like Fiji and Palau is it is cheap and easy to resources.


I do not get the industry. Place like Marine Depot, BRS, lfs, Deltec, Reef clubs, Macna, distributors, forums, etc. stand to loose allot. You think they would at least be concerned a little.

You know I have donated to support the reefs and so has WRS and others, the sad part is sometimes that money is used against the hobby.

You are right this hobby can do so much better even if it costs us more.

I hate to say it some of it is greasing the right palms and being funded. Some of it is just flat out bribing the right person in the right seat.

Can we make you the first lobbyist? That was a very moving speech

 

[alton]

I wonder what the people that worked for Walt are doing for money to feed their families and all the others that can no longer collect fish and corals?

 

[chap34]

Alright so no one has brought his up yet —- but didn’t over collections nearly wipe out
The banggai cardinalfish?

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/09/wildlife-banggai-cardinalfish-trade-cites-protections/

IMO they are the least intelligent fish out there. I ordered 5 and they just get stuck on returns and do dumb stuff, one even died under a mushroom, like for real?

 

[M007]

The sad reality of these bans is that with the stroke of a pen, guided by misinformation, entire economic metrics are thrown into disarray. Collectors all the way to end users will be affected including everyone in the middle. Curiously very few pen strokers seem to be able to address what is really killing the oceans such as single use plastics and careless burning of fossil fuels. Fish farming is the new reality for the dinner plate so maybe the time has come for fish and coral farming for the aquarium.

 

[BenitaSolo]

I have been thinking and to be honest worrying about the future of this hobby recently. Last night I was browsing the web and came across some nice seahorse tanks and it got me thinking-
Do you think that as these bans increase and regulations take hold that we will see an uptick in planted reef tanks? Do these regulations include macro algaes and sponges? I have always wondered why there aren't more saltwater planted tanks out there. They have character and beauty. I would imagine they carry their own set of challenges to keep the hobbyist busy.

I don't feel like this was a very well written reply but you catch my drift... what's next?

 

[fish farmer]

This is really well written and you have convinced me on the parts you differ on. There's a lot of people / companies who stand to lose a lot. I was more talking about the manufacturers - maybe they are doing something but I feel they would benefit from more collaboration. This should be a huge focus for them - If beginners can only buy clownfish, a couple of blennies and some small frags that will take more than a year to grow into something decent then there will be no one buying their controllers, pumps, skimmers and lights.

[I just deleted a whole bunch of stuff that is so frustrating as a beginner despite the love I get from the community].

Anyway these manufacturers need to ask themselves if they want to exist in 5 years. Their current strategy means this is a small hobby where only the truly dedicated succeed. They need to think about reefing as an ecosystem. As each key creature in the web is killed the ecosystem becomes less resilient. Want to know why we are so vulnerable? Because the number of people who succeeded in the hobby are exceeded by the number of people who spent huge money only for everything to die.

But I can also see an ecosystem that is much stronger in 5 years. The technology is now here to make this hobby accessible. The manufacturers need to say - we don't need each beginner spending >$5k to get into the hobby because the more people who find it easy to succeed the more they will upgrade. This is why I think Biota is really onto something - the whole industry should get behind it. I can imagine the industry building out from Biota so there is actually an easy progression for those who want to upgrade. The industry can say - we want these standards for equipment, livestock and to support local stores. Then they can go to Governments proactively and put forward their case and they will have our backing. They could tell a great story. Suddenly instead of the story being "I spent all this money and everything died" it becomes this magical thing that "oh... how cool is it that you can actually keep these creatures today and it's one industry that actually stands together and protects the resources they rely on". Someone earlier said something like reefing should be exclusive - and it sounded right to me. But it's wrong. If the hobby doubles and the majority can succeed and the whole reefing community is demanding our oceans be protected then it will look stupid to everyone if some state or country still his has a blanket ban. Aquaculture and Mariculture will be huge, countries will want the industry and the manufacturers will be in a much stronger position.

The great thing is we have this community - everyone is willing to help (probably because everyone who made it remembers the gauntlet they had to run to find success). There's nothing better than a strong community for an industry to build off (and change it's image).

I think along the same lines with the industry/hobbiest/ even the governing bodies who can benefit from collaboration and understanding of what the REAL threats are. There are a lot of larger fish to fry when it comes to protecting/conserving ecosystems.

I work in a small U.S state(Vermont) which if you compared its current waters and forests to say late 1800's they are vastly different. Zero environmental laws during industrial times, clear cut the forests, dewatered the streams, fisheries were overharvested, etc. Early turn of the century, the government started to see need for restocking streams, decreasing bag limits on hunting and fishing. Of course these things cost money.

Currently as in many states, there is a licensing system, you want to hunt and fish, you buy a yearly license and have set bag limits, etc, etc. There are also government run recreational stocking programs and restoration stocking programs. Funding also comes from taxes of hunting and fishing equipment, which goes to the federal government and eventually comes back to the states in matching funds. Obviously many would argue the big government role, but in this little state we have our own biologists who oversee the local fisheries. I just can't go out in the wild and collect fish without some form of license or permit, even if there are plenty. Of course with any type of license system there will always be the "entitled", I payed my fee , now where are my fish.

At least with a license the end user should have some type of voice. Of course you would still need a collaborative entity in the industry/government who is trustworthy and bases decisions on sound science.

 

[shred5]

I have been thinking and to be honest worrying about the future of this hobby recently. Last night I was browsing the web and came across some nice seahorse tanks and it got me thinking-
Do you think that as these bans increase and regulations take hold that we will see an uptick in planted reef tanks? Do these regulations include macro algaes and sponges? I have always wondered why there aren't more saltwater planted tanks out there. They have character and beauty. I would imagine they carry their own set of challenges to keep the hobbyist busy.

I don't feel like this was a very well written reply but you catch my drift... what's next?

There are already bans on algae even shipping from state to state like it is illegal to ship to California. I am not sure we have to worry about it from the ocean though people farm allot of it.
When I first got in the hobby it was very common to grow macros in the tank. It was a form of nutrient control. I could defiantly see more planted tanks and people even turning to seahorses and stuff.

I might my self turn to freshwater and do a paludarium or something similar.

As far as sponges it depends on the ban... Usually if coral fish and liverock get shut down no one wants to ship just sponges anyway.


If you want sponges Caribbean ones are the best anyway and can be had from places like KP Aquatics.