BANNED! But Is There Still Hope?

[Sunny Goold]

I think the article pretty clearly talks about a series of events and decisions that will restrict the hobby and will likely hold it back. Unfortunately these days no politician is going to stick their neck out for something unless it has commercial value to them (and their backers or powerful voices within their electorate).
What would happen to the reefs in Indonesia for example if this ban was made permanent and expanded to ornamental fish too? I bet a whole lot more reef would be dynamited and totally destroyed. This current ban increases the risk of this and I suspect has been put into place partially for this reason. It has also been documented (there is lot's of videos / articles on it) how our hobby provides good sustainable jobs and the value of the animals is much higher. Now everywhere (including in Indonesia) everyone in the hobby (I think) agrees that cyanide should be eradicated and livestock handling should be improved.
This is an industry problem, something every hobbyist wants (and is prepared to pay at least a little more for) but something very few in the industry seem to have got behind and I include all the manufacturers in this.
If the industry did only this they would have a much more secure future.
There is a huge risk to anyone who sets up a business collecting (or anywhere in the supply chain) for corals and fish. That risk seems to increase all the time and I believe they need support.
I'm not so worried about the hobby having access to limited numbers of wild corals. From what I understand wild corals are a bit hit and miss and I would rather get something I know will do well and have good color even if it is much smaller.
I am worried that collecting fish will be severely restricted (whilst wild populations continue to be decimated by other industries). We simply need more aquaculture but breeding fish / inverts is not something many hobbyists can do.
I am worried that it is so easy for a government, with the stroke of a pen, to shut down something that is a positive (in comparison to a future without it).
I know that ban in Texas someone wrote about was ridiculous - it probably ensures the extinction of the Arabian Onyx (if my memory is correct.
Governments certainly are not doing near enough to protect certain important ecosystems and the planet. They do what is best for them, ignoring the science and ensuring a dark future.
Still there are questions over our hobby. Whilst we hobbyists care the industry (largely) doesn't. Fish are still collected with cyanide and as the industry allows that we are open to criticism. Too high a percentage of livestock die in transit. We as hobbyists are sick of it. LFS are sick of it. From an outsiders perspective its a super expensive pet that usually dies.
And before anyone says "some company that makes pumps and skimmers can't do anything" they can - BRS canceled my entire order because they found out I live overseas and that's because the manufacturers demand it.
It's not that hard for them to have standards, have importers sign up to that and weed out the bad actors.
It's then much easier for our hobby to tell a positive story and harder to shut us down.

 

[that Reef Guy]

I almost got out of the hobby when 90% of my mariculture acros died from minor swings. The captive grown local swap stuff all lived and is massive colony now. I’m no expert but my own findings leads me to believe the mariculture acros are bad for the hobby. My advice to anyone reading this is buy the acros you see all the time captive grown. I see red planet, purple/blue/green slimer, Walt Disney, Cali tort, green frog skin, Fox flame etc etc that are listed every day which tell me they do well in captivity. The thing that got me confused though is that places were chopping up the mariculture and selling frags that I has assumed were home grown. With my experience the frag off the mariculture does do better longer but long term still has poor success rate.

Very True.

Aquaculture is much easier to keep than Mariculture or Wild Corals.

They are Better Adapted for Aquarium Life as they were Raised in an Aquarium.

The Ocean is a much different enviornment than the Aquarium.

Of course people complain about the name game and prices.

Well tell me is that Coral that Died on you a good deal now that it is dead people?

Think and Quit looking at Dollar Signs.

 

[fish farmer]

I'm not sure exactly how much credit the hobby should get, but it certainly seems to provide a little bit of buffer for certain coral species in the form of a "crowd-sourced" broodstock and probably keeps people engaged, aware of, and caring about the fate of the reefs who might otherwise not be. I think that it's a lot easier to connect with and care about something if it's not just a concept read about or seen on some nature documentary. That being said, the real credit should probably go to the scientists working hard to selective breed corals that are better-adapted to warmer temps!

To be clear, I agree that it does seem like a lot of the recent bans have been reactionary and probably not rooted in a clear need. I do think that the aquarium trade is probably last on the list of what people should be worried about with the reefs, but I can also understand why nations and states that depend on their health might be extra cautious and a bit paranoid these days.

I also believe the engagement with all players involved, hobbyists, scientists, and governments is long overdue. This is why I always think aquaculture whether for conservation or consumption should be a priority so bans like this don't happen. Wild live rock harvesting was banned from Florida, they started farming it. Take a look at the salmon fisheries of Alaska, big hatcheries that put smolts out for sustainable fisheries for all to enjoy. Everyone continues to tell me go to Alaska to fish, it is a big part of their economy.

 

[siggy]

I have not read threw this yet but I did stop into a LFS yesterday and was disappointed by the selection and pricing. The owner was cashing me out and I mentioned the reduced selection and his response was that he was having difficulties in getting corals and that nothing is coming out of Asia. He normally brings in $10k a week from Asia he now will be ordering from Australia and It will be 2 weeks before it shows up. On the flip side he had severial Tangs at pre ban/halt pricing 1-2" hippos for $49.00 and 2-3" tangs @$45 although purples are still 175. This was a beaut but sadly it was too big

 

[biophilia]

I also believe the engagement with all players involved, hobbyists, scientists, and governments is long overdue. This is why I always think aquaculture whether for conservation or consumption should be a priority so bans like this don't happen. Wild live rock harvesting was banned from Florida, they started farming it. Take a look at the salmon fisheries of Alaska, big hatcheries that put smolts out for sustainable fisheries for all to enjoy. Everyone continues to tell me go to Alaska to fish, it is a big part of their economy.

It would be great to see the hobby move entirely to sustainable aquaculture/mariculture. There's been a big push in terrestrial conservation towards a new approach to maximizing biodiversity, resilience to climate change, and preventing further habitat loss. It focuses on large networks of protected "cores" that are completely off-limits to resource extraction and connected to one another with protected linkages/migration routes that allow for gene flow. Those cores can then be surrounded by mixed-use "buffer zones" that allow for resource extraction done in a sustainable way that further increases habitat and also satisfies the growing needs of humanity.

That same approach applied to reefs might allow for an overall increase in reef size and health by completely protecting existing reef cores, identifying crucial linkages for boat traffic to avoid, and buffering them with mariculture zones for the cultivation and harvesting of both ornamental species and sustainable seafood. And of course indoor aquaculture frag farming wherever possible. Seems like a win for everybody...

 

[that Reef Guy]

I have not read threw this yet but I did stop into a LFS yesterday and was disappointed by the selection and pricing. The owner was cashing me out and I mentioned the reduced selection and his response was that he was having difficulties in getting corals and that nothing is coming out of Asia. He normally brings in $10k a week from Asia he now will be ordering from Australia and It will be 2 weeks before it shows up. On the flip side he had severial Tangs at pre ban/halt pricing 1-2" hippos for $49.00 and 2-3" tangs @$45 although purples are still 175. This was a beaut but sadly it was too big
View attachment 770407

Purples for $175

I just saw some for $60 to $75

And that is in the Chicago Area

 

[that Reef Guy]

I have not read threw this yet but I did stop into a LFS yesterday and was disappointed by the selection and pricing. The owner was cashing me out and I mentioned the reduced selection and his response was that he was having difficulties in getting corals and that nothing is coming out of Asia. He normally brings in $10k a week from Asia he now will be ordering from Australia and It will be 2 weeks before it shows up. On the flip side he had severial Tangs at pre ban/halt pricing 1-2" hippos for $49.00 and 2-3" tangs @$45 although purples are still 175. This was a beaut but sadly it was too big
View attachment 770407

What store in Michigan Spends $10,000 a Week in Coral.

And on Top of that its Transhipped and from only 1 Location?

 

[sghera64]

Urban sprawl, mass immigration (EU, US, Russia), clean water scarcity, energy shortages, food scarcity, economic disparity, traffic congestion, humans behaving more like animals in lab experiments when scientists increase population density (aggression, fights -murder-, tribalism, uprising, loss of empathy and compassion and community toward one another), note_1 below. . . . . . . and now bans on collection and preservation of live fish, live coral, and live rock.

The problem seems pretty obvious to me and the solution is quite elegantly simple:

1. Humans: spawn less. [emoji6]
2. Fish, coral (others): spawn more [emoji225]

If we all just do our part, all will be well.


Note_1: global warming omitted because I don’t want to anger Mother Nature any more than she already is by referring to “her solution” to human excess as a “problem”. She is fastidiously methodical. But perhaps there is a less consequential option for us.

 

[siggy]

Im not sure how or where he gets his stock, He made it sound like he orders direct. I do know there is a big importer/supplier in mid Michigan that directed to this store because of its sheer size. guessing 10,000 gallons of both fresh and salt.

 

[fish farmer]

It would be great to see the hobby move entirely to sustainable aquaculture/mariculture. There's been a big push in terrestrial conservation towards a new approach to maximizing biodiversity, resilience to climate change, and preventing further habitat loss. It focuses on large networks of protected "cores" that are completely off-limits to resource extraction and connected to one another with protected linkages/migration routes that allow for gene flow. Those cores can then be surrounded by mixed-use "buffer zones" that allow for resource extraction done in a sustainable way that further increases habitat and also satisfies the growing needs of humanity.

That same approach applied to reefs might allow for an overall increase in reef size and health by completely protecting existing reef cores, identifying crucial linkages for boat traffic to avoid, and buffering them with mariculture zones for the cultivation and harvesting of both ornamental species and sustainable seafood. And of course indoor aquaculture frag farming wherever possible. Seems like a win for everybody...

EXACTLY.

There is a Norwegian company building a big land based SALMON farm in south Florida. Imagine if it was a frag/ornamentals farm, something that would be more suited to a sub tropical area IMO.

 

[alton]

Coral Magazine Jan/Feb. page 106-107 sums it up for me, just like all the construction of homes in Sri Lanka on the beaches and many other places. Like someone already said we need to control the human population here on earth, that is the true way to control global warming. At the end of the day, Tourism brings in more money.

 

[sde1500]

That was a good read. It sounds like CITIES is slacking and we need more work on breeding these guys. Actually this sounds like the perfect starting species for experimenting and creating a sustainable population in captivity

They are threatened on their home reef, but I believe are an invasive species and thriving in other waters. They are also readily available now as captive bred.

 

[shred5]

They are threatened on their home reef, but I believe are an invasive species and thriving in other waters. They are also readily available now as captive bred.

That is the truth... They are not a threatened species just where they come from..
I was watching a dive video the other day and they were everywhere and they mentioned they did not belong there and were invasive.

They are also one of the easiest fish to breed. Pairing is the hardest part and they are large enough to eat bbs.

 

[Trickman2]

Another ban another huge mistake. This is no different than the idiots banning the killer whale program at Sea world. No one gave a flip about Killer Whales until Sea World rolled in. Our kid's kids will not understand the true beauty of a killer whale or the ocean. I will argue the cost of ending the killer whale program is much higher than is stated. I hope this activist understand what they have done. The cost of a few killer whales is going to cost thousand of killer whales lives in the long run. Also many of the killer whales had been bred in captivity. So now we ban fishes in the hobby and corals. My kids will have pictures of them and my aquarium but they may never get the same experience if this ignorance continues. Their kids may never know or care about the oceans like we have. Sea World is becoming a amusement roller coaster park as they have no choice. Sad thing is the Zoo is applauding the actions and others. Yet they are next. Humans need to be inspired by nature and the beauty. We are visually, tactical creatures and a picture or a video will never be able to represent what it is like. Can we do better? Yes we can...Have we done better over the years? I have been in this hobby for over 24 years and I will say we have made leaps and bounds in technology. A ban will help nothing is short sided. If we want to do anything it should be program designed to help replenish reefs. Go ahead and add a small conservation fee or a requirement to help restock the worlds corals. Give incentives to captive breeding and propagation programs to innovate large scale breeding facilities. Once again we are not understanding what the true cost is. Are knee jerk of over-reactions will be the death of us.

 

[shred5]

Coral Magazine Jan/Feb. page 106-107 sums it up for me, just like all the construction of homes in Sri Lanka on the beaches and many other places. Like someone already said we need to control the human population here on earth, that is the true way to control global warming. At the end of the day, Tourism brings in more money.

Yep and I believe this might be what is behind the Fiji ban. That ban has nothing to do with saving the reef since Walt helps the reef.

 

[shred5]

Ornamental fish and coral collecting ads value to the reef and gives locals a reason to protect the reef.

 

[Trickman2]

Yep and I believe this might be what is behind the Fiji ban. That ban has nothing to do with saving the reef since Walt helps the reef.

Money drives things and short term thinking is nothing new. Look at how the stock market has effected long term growth for short term gains.

 

[Reeferdude56]

@Trickman2 i have to politely disagree about your comments about the orcas. Though I do agree that orcas gained a lot of national attention from their shows and iconic whales like Shamu, keeping them in confined spaces was a cruel punishment for one of the smartest creatures in the phyla cetaceans. These creatures migrate thousands of miles each year in search of prey and breeding. To confine them to these small enclosures was cruel and it came as no shock to me when one lashed out and killed their handler. If people want to watch orcas, watch them in their natural habitat on documentaries like Planet Earth or go see them yourself.

The situation is a similar to the one we are currently in. Though wild orcas were caught, they were used as tools to promote awareness of their endangerment, though the few captive orcas suffered for it. Similarly, I love having friends come over and showing them my tangs and triggers and telling them about the struggles the reefs are having. But too many fish and coral, maybe not the ones kept by people on this respected forum, are dying either in our tanks or on the way to our tanks. The awareness doesn’t outweigh the deaths.

Now, I do not know the strict numbers, but the biomass of ornamental fish removed these past years must be an astounding number. “In what a fish knows” by Jonathan Balcombe he sites (sorry I forget the reference but I can find it if you want it) that one billion kilograms of fish are removed from the oceans per year. Not all of that are from the reefs, but the idea remains the same. We in part, not entirely for sure, are bombarding an already extremely fragile ecosystem facing a multitude of threats like rising water temperatures, ocean acidification, overfishing. We cannot immediately reverse the effects of carbon, but we can, by having bans and weight limits quotas, control one variable. We need to recognize that if we leave nature alone, and give it enough time, it can rebound from these problems. An example of this are the El Niño hurricanes that have hit the Great Barrier Reef over the years, each time doing severe damage but the slowly the reefs rebound back. We must leave reefs alone. No more harvesting.

I support the bans.

Sincerely,
A future marine biologist

 

[Trickman2]

@Trickman2 i have to politely disagree about your comments about the orcas. Though I do agree that orcas gained a lot of national attention from their shows and iconic whales like Shamu, keeping them in confined spaces was a cruel punishment for one of the smartest creatures in the phyla cetaceans. These creatures migrate thousands of miles each year in search of prey and breeding. To confine them to these small enclosures was cruel and it came as no shock to me when one lashed out and killed their handler. If people want to watch orcas, watch them in their natural habitat on documentaries like Planet Earth or go see them yourself.

The situation is a similar to the one we are currently in. Though wild orcas were caught, they were used as tools to promote awareness of their endangerment, though the few captive orcas suffered for it. Similarly, I love having friends come over and showing them my tangs and triggers and telling them about the struggles the reefs are having. But too many fish and coral, maybe not the ones kept by people on this respected forum, are dying either in our tanks or on the way to our tanks. The awareness doesn’t outweigh the deaths.

Now, I do not know the strict numbers, but the biomass of ornamental fish removed these past years must be an astounding number. “In what a fish knows” by Jonathan Balcombe he sites (sorry I forget the reference but I can find it if you want it) that one billion kilograms of fish are removed from the oceans per year. Not all of that are from the reefs, but the idea remains the same. We in part, not entirely for sure, are bombarding an already extremely fragile ecosystem facing a multitude of threats like rising water temperatures, ocean acidification, overfishing. We cannot immediately reverse the effects of carbon, but we can, by having bans and weight limits quotas, control one variable. We need to recognize that if we leave nature alone, and give it enough time, it can rebound from these problems. An example of this are the El Niño hurricanes that have hit the Great Barrier Reef over the years, each time doing severe damage but the slowly the reefs rebound back. We must leave reefs alone. No more harvesting.

I support the bans.

Sincerely,
A future marine biologist

The consequences will come down the line. Mark my words in your Marine biologist wishing journal. I know we have all been told we can become whatever we want when we grow up but that is not the real world. I hope to teach my children to wiser than much of our current youth. Ask yourself what compelled you into wanting to be a marine biologist? As far as being cruel, many killer whales have been born and raised in captivity and therefore know nothing different. Why did we stop the breeding program then? A killer whale trainer dying in the grand scale of things is nothing. A couple killer whales in captivity is not a big deal for the larger good. The cost of a couple poor orca's who lived in captivity and didn't get killed due to whaling. While thousands got slaughtered...boo hoo. What would have happened if we never known Shamu, How many more killers whales/whales would have been slaughtered? The Killer whale trainers knew the risks and I am sure trainers would be happy to get back in the water if they could. Do you think my young children have the same understanding and appreciation for the killer whales? Do you think they would care about marine fish if it wasn't for me? I can tell you the answer but it will not be what you want to hear. Have you been in some of the aquariums around the world? Many people will never get the opportunities afforded to you because of this short sided ignorance. Many children cannot afford to see these animals in the wild or have the time. You are also hedging your bets on the ocean and many corals may only exist in the home aquarium now. Many of our home aquariums are more astounding. Some hobbyist are more advanced than your average marine biologist. I hope you will really think about all of this as much of our future depends on the ocean. Please do not be short sided. Fishing has to be astronomically worse for the environment, pollution, etc. I will repeat that seaworld and it's killer whales has done much more for the awareness and environment. It is a small price to pay for the greater whole. One day you may understand that sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. Also you should be thanking your lucky stars for Sea World that you may even have a chance to get a job as a marine biologist. You might not even get that opportunity now depending on your age. I wish you the best in your dream to be a marine biologist and hopefully you will be granted the opportunity.

 

[Rispa]

The consequences will come down the line. Mark my words in your Marine biologist wishing journal. I know we have all been told we can become whatever we want when we grow up but that is not the real world. I hope to teach my children to wiser than much of our current youth. Ask yourself what compelled you into wanting to be a marine biologist? As far as being cruel, many killer whales have been born and raised in captivity and therefore know nothing different. Why did we stop the breeding program then? A killer whale trainer dying in the grand scale of things is nothing. A couple killer whales in captivity is not a big deal for the larger good. The cost of a couple poor orca's who lived in captivity and didn't get killed due to whaling. While thousands got slaughtered...boo hoo. What would have happened if we never known Shamu, How many more killers whales/whales would have been slaughtered? The Killer whale trainers new the risks and I am sure trainers would be happy to get back in the water if they could. Do you think my young children have the same understanding and appreciation for the killer whales? Do you think they would care about marine fish if it wasn't for me? I can tell you the answer but it will not be what you want to hear. Have you been in some of the aquariums around the world? Many people will never get the opportunities afforded to you because of this short sided ignorance. Many children cannot afford to see these animals in the wild or have the time. You are also hedging your bets on the ocean and many corals may only exist in the home aquarium now. Many of our home aquariums are more astounding. Some hobbyist are more advanced than your average marine biologist. I hope you will really think about all of this as much of our future depends on the ocean. Please do not be short sided. Fishing has to be astronomically worse for the environment, pollution, etc. I will repeat that seaworld and it's killer whales has done much more for the awareness and environment. It is a small price to pay for the greater whole. One day you may understand that sacrifices have to be made for the greater good. Also you should be thanking your lucky stars for Sea World that you may even have a chance to get a job as a marine biologist. You might not even get that opportunity now depending on your age. I wish you the best in your dream to be a marine biologist and hopefully you will be granted the opportunity.

I agree with this