BANNED! But Is There Still Hope?

[Forsaken77]

Very good read.

I don't have much hope for the breeding of most fish. Many of the species' we can't even tell the difference between male and female. So I fear many fish species will be lost to us unless more in depth studies are done on fish's breeding habits and identification of male/female.

Corals, on the other hand, I don't see a problem. There are a vast amount of coral species in circulation and many are fragged. So it already seems like there's a never ending supply.

 

[sghera64]

I read Mike’s article a few days ago and held my thoughts to myself. I’m trying to get clarity on what the problem is here.

I’ve read many of the replies. A lot of emotion, fear, and dispositions on this topic. It’s all over the place.

Can anyone clarify what the real problem is here?

I’m not asking what the impact to the hobby is. I’m asking what the difference is between what *is* happening versus what *should* happen (I.e. the gap; the problem).

Seriously, is anyone willing to take a stab at clearly stating the problem?

@Mike Paletta, do you have an idea on this?

 

[Rispa]

I read Mike’s article a few days ago and held my thoughts to myself. I’m trying to get clarity on what the problem is here.

I’ve read many of the replies. A lot of emotion, fear, and dispositions on this topic. It’s all over the place.

Can anyone clarify what the real problem is here?

I’m not asking what the impact to the hobby is. I’m asking what the difference is between what *is* happening versus what *should* happen (I.e. the gap; the problem).

Seriously, is anyone willing to take a stab at clearly stating the problem?

@Mike Paletta, do you have an idea on this?

That there isn't enough information to make informed decisions. Lol

And yet decisions are being made based on emotions and fears sometimes even ignoring the hard facts that are available. At least that's the sum of what I'm seeing.

 

[sghera64]

That there isn't enough information to make informed decisions. Lol

And yet decisions are being made based on emotions and fears sometimes even ignoring the hard facts that are available. At least that's the sum of what I'm seeing.

Ah, nice. I like it.

I presume the “decision makers” are politicians. But honestly let’s not blame them. They are merely the consequences of local elections and tools to the influential.

So, with that, I presume the real people that you refer to as lacking enough information to make informed decisions (the instigators, conservationist) might also lack objectivity. It’s these folks that we need to better understand.

What are their motives, beliefs, biases? If we can begin to know these then a real dialog might be possible.

 

[Rispa]

Ah, nice. I like it.

I presume the “decision makers” are politicians. But honestly let’s not blame them. They are merely the consequences of local elections and tools to the influential.

So, with that, I presume the real people that you refer to as lacking enough information to make informed decisions (the instigators, conservationist) might also lack objectivity. It’s these folks that we need to better understand.

What are their motives, beliefs, biases? If we can begin to know these then a real dialog might be possible.

It's that plus some other stuff. Attacking the aquarium industry seems to be an easy knee jerk feel good reaction that won't be met with much serious resistance. On the other hand going after tuna fishers because of all their bicatch would pit who ever dares against a very large industry with very large companies.

Btw if you guys aren't buying like caught tuna please start

 

[BantyRooster97]

From my experience it always seems the minority voice (aka do gooders / tree huggers / etc) always get their way & they are usually acting on knee jerk info or emotion rather than science or research. Same thing is happening here, all in the nae of PC save the Earth BS. What the won't do is actually make changes to the real issues that we are causing, because that would slow "progress".

Perfect example, the do gooders here in TX blocking the hunting of exotic animals, animals that aren't even native to the US much less TX & were brought in like farm animals, to raise & hunt. Perfect example, the Oryx. At one time there were more Oryx in TX than wild in Africa. The got the state to impose licenses / taxes / etc on the raising & hunting of these animals to a point where most ranches just let them go free. Thus resulting in a rapid decline in their numbers & what do you know.....closer to being actually extinct. But hey, we're not killing for food / sport / or fun anymore... win for the minority tree huggers.

Our coral are headed in the same direction.

 

[Rispa]

From my experience it always seems the minority voice (aka do gooders / tree huggers / etc) always get their way & they are usually acting on knee jerk info or emotion rather than science or research. Same thing is happening here, all in the nae of PC save the Earth crap. What the won't do is actually make changes to the real issues that we are causing, because that would slow "progress".

Perfect example, the do gooders here in TX blocking the hunting of exotic animals, animals that aren't even native to the US much less TX & were brought in like farm animals, to raise & hunt. Perfect example, the Oryx. At one time there were more Oryx in TX than wild in Africa. The got the state to impose licenses / taxes / etc on the raising & hunting of these animals to a point where most ranches just let them go free. Thus resulting in a rapid decline in their numbers & what do you know.....closer to being actually extinct. But hey, we're not killing for food / sport / or fun anymore... win for the minority tree huggers.

Our coral are headed in the same direction.

This exactly!

 

[biophilia]

Nineteen percent of the world's coral reefs are already gone. Thirty-eight percent of the 44,838 known coral species are currently classified as vulnerable or threatened (the highest percentage of any taxonomic class on the planet). A quarter of all existing reefs will be gone by 2050 according to the latest analysis. If that fact doesn't warrant limits and strategic bans on collections, I don't know what would. It's hard. But it's fair.

 

[biophilia]

I'm not sure how sport hunting of non-native species on game reserves compares in any way to collecting native species from already-burdened ecosystems that are vital to ocean health. On a macro-scale, this isn't about a "win for tree huggers". It's about pragmatic solutions to the most pressing problems the planet is facing. Individual bans might be found to be overreaching or unnecessary and argued on their individual merits, but the overall concept of giving reserves a space to recover holds water and is an evidence-based and effective conservation tool.

 

[BantyRooster97]

Look for the true reason the coral reefs are dying off or are in danger & it isn't from our hobby. I'm not saying humans aren't the problem!

 

[Rispa]

I'm not sure how sport hunting of non-native species on game reserves compares in any way to collecting native species from already-burdened ecosystems that are vital to ocean health. On a macro-scale, this isn't about a "win for tree huggers". It's about pragmatic solutions to the most pressing problems the planet is facing. Individual bans might be found to be overreaching or unnecessary and argued on their individual merits, but the overall concept of giving reserves a space to recover holds water and is an evidence-based and effective conservation tool.

It's an example of how and why bureaucracy fails when it comes to conservation and the environment.

 

[fish farmer]

Nineteen percent of the world's coral reefs are already gone. Thirty-eight percent of the 44,838 known coral species are currently classified as vulnerable or threatened (the highest percentage of any taxonomic class on the planet). A quarter of all existing reefs will be gone by 2050 according to the latest analysis. If that fact doesn't warrant limits and strategic bans on collections, I don't know what would. It's hard. But it's fair.

What are the main drivers to this decline? Pollution? Logging? Ocean Temperatures? Cruise ships raking over reefs? Finding nemo and dory?

If the reefs are in such trouble the real hard decisions like leaving reefs completely alone, no fishing, no building near shore, no boating, etc, etc should be done.

 

[Rispa]

What are the main drivers to this decline? Pollution? Logging? Ocean Temperatures? Cruise ships raking over reefs? Finding nemo and dory?

If the reefs are in such trouble the real hard decisions like leaving reefs completely alone, no fishing, no building near shore, no boating, etc, etc should be done.

Well at least in the gulf one problem was a severe decrease in long spine sea urchin populations in the 80's

 

[biophilia]

It's an example of how and why bureaucracy fails when it comes to conservation and the environment.

While it may be an example of how any specific policy may be misguided or innadequste, I’m not sure it’s really an indicator that legislation/beurocracy is intrinsically a bad thing when it comes to protecting biodiversity. Nearly all of the conservation success stories in the past century have been a direct result of legislation of one kind or another. The Endangered Species Act for example is far from perfect, but has managed to save over 200 species in the US that would likely have disappeared in the decades since 1973. There are far more examples of environmental legislation having net-positive effects than net-negative.

 

[biophilia]

What are the main drivers to this decline? Pollution? Logging? Ocean Temperatures? Cruise ships raking over reefs? Finding nemo and dory?

If the reefs are in such trouble the real hard decisions like leaving reefs completely alone, no fishing, no building near shore, no boating, etc, etc should be done.

I’d agree with you there. It’s unfortunate that the knee-jerk reaction that politicians seek is often the low-lying fruit/green tokenism. It would be nice if partisan politics and cultural ideology were more divorced from science-based conservation policies, but that seems unlikely to happen any time soon.

 

[MJC]

IMOP It would be nice if everyone started out with frags none of this instant reef BS just because you have lots of money and are impatient.
How many times have we heard nothing happens quickly in this hobby.
Lets get back to trading and generosity.
Earn your right of passage to receive respect were respect is deserved.

 

[BantyRooster97]

While it may be an example of how any specific policy may be misguided or innadequste, I’m not sure it’s really an indicator that legislation/beurocracy is intrinsically a bad thing when it comes to protecting biodiversity. Nearly all of the conservation success stories in the past century have been a direct result of legislation of one kind or another. The Endangered Species Act for example is far from perfect, but has managed to save over 200 species in the US that would likely have disappeared in the decades since 1973. There are far more examples of environmental legislation having net-positive effects than net-negative.

Most of the species that were saved were studied & their habitats were studied & more than just putting them on a list was done. Actual thought, science, & results.

 

[sghera64]

Nineteen percent of the world's coral reefs are already gone. Thirty-eight percent of the 44,838 known coral species are currently classified as vulnerable or threatened (the highest percentage of any taxonomic class on the planet). A quarter of all existing reefs will be gone by 2050 according to the latest analysis. If that fact doesn't warrant limits and strategic bans on collections, I don't know what would. It's hard. But it's fair.

I presume the reasons behind the dwindling reefs is not the hobby, but more climate change, right?

If it is climate change and the reefs are ultimately doomed, then our hobby is the perhaps the saving grace that these species need to ensure their survival, eh? It seems Mother Nature will otherwise wipe them all out.

 

[Rispa]

Can you guys list some places where a person can go volunteer to help the reefs? A family member wants to go

 

[biophilia]

I presume the reasons behind the dwindling reefs is not the hobby, but more climate change, right?

If it is climate change and the reefs are ultimately doomed, then our hobby is the perhaps the saving grace that these species need to ensure their survival, eh? It seems Mother Nature will otherwise wipe them all out.

I'm not sure exactly how much credit the hobby should get, but it certainly seems to provide a little bit of buffer for certain coral species in the form of a "crowd-sourced" broodstock and probably keeps people engaged, aware of, and caring about the fate of the reefs who might otherwise not be. I think that it's a lot easier to connect with and care about something if it's not just a concept read about or seen on some nature documentary. That being said, the real credit should probably go to the scientists working hard to selective breed corals that are better-adapted to warmer temps!

To be clear, I agree that it does seem like a lot of the recent bans have been reactionary and probably not rooted in a clear need. I do think that the aquarium trade is probably last on the list of what people should be worried about with the reefs, but I can also understand why nations and states that depend on their health might be extra cautious and a bit paranoid these days.