The Reef Hobby- An Endangered Species?

[uniquecorals]

Sorry for three straight posts, but R2R locks out edits after some period has passed.

I think I may have been too nihilistic with my opinion in my previous post (above) and I didn't want to sound dismissive of Scott's call to action. What PIJAC is doing in regards to submitting data to NOAA during the hearing process is exactly what we need to do, and it's something we should support. Provide good data to help make good decisions. This is something we can do and rally behind. We must also respect the data ourselves.

Len, I think you're right on, really. The bottom line is that we will have a heck of a time fighting NOAA to reverse a decision like that. I think it would be great if what ultimately could be reached is some sort of compromise which restricts or eliminated some species from collection, as it should, but hopefully makes allowances for maricultured and/or aquacultures specimens of said species. I think that the data is probably good, it's just that, IMHO the aquatics industry needs to have a larger voice in all of this, considering that there is actually a significant amount of good the hobby and industry are capable of doing in this regard.

What this thread has shown is that we are capable of rallying together, but it's unfortunate that it seems to take the threat of severely restricting our hobby to do so. What we really need is to make each and every hobbyist aware of the issues, and empower ourselves to be a part of the process to protect the reefs and have a violable hobby/industry. I would hope that, after this ESA decision, the hobby and industry take a more visible, inclusive, and proactive role of working WITH legislators and the scientific community to reach a consensus that helps the reefs outright, AND provides the opportunity for the industry to continue to do good things for the reefs by creating a framework for a properly regulated, accountable, and sustainable trade. It will take a lot of cooperation, collaboration, and perhaps compromise, but I would hope that, the right rules in place, such a thing can come to pass.

-Scott

 

[Kworker]

This is from U.S. Fish and Wildlife service, who primarily deals with national species but does have international overlap. It does also explain at the end that breeding is not allowed for a pet. I am unsure how they would actually handle this case since any of the endangered species from our hobby will most likely only be bred by hobbyists or large entities in the hobby itself, so for them to outlaw it would be counter productive to their goal.

"For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.

For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.

A person registered with the FWS may obtain a captive-bred wildlife permit to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Using protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations."


Can find more information in link below.

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html

 

[96silvia]

My two cents..

This is my two cents. I am probably going to get bashed for this, but I don't care.
Lets forget about our political views for just a second. For the last 20 years I have watched those that are "well educated" do absolutely stupid things to make our lives difficult and take more freedoms away from us as citizens and waste so much of OUR money. These people are so out of touch and some of the laws or presidential mandates that have come down have really touched all of our lives.

Here are a few things that have happened, just in case you didn't notice...
not being able to electronically transfer money from savings accounts to checking accounts more than 6 times a month.( you can still do this if you walk into a bank). so whats the point? all in the name of the patriot act.... you can thank the republican party for this.....

nsa security... what a joke we are no safe now than in 2011 but we do have long lines at the airports and we can't even carry a large tube of toothpaste in our luggage... so dumb..

Fed crackdown on grey market vehicles they are either confiscated or crushed.
skyline mostly are the ones that customs is going after..
They literally waste $400,000 a year searching for a production vehicle that has crash standards that meet or exceed our own....
you can thank our federal government for this.

Obama care you can thank the democrats for this
this caused millions of people to loose part time hours which equals money because of the change in classification for work hours.
Millions of people have lost insurance because of this
my 23 year old daughter can't even get a school loan because she can be considered as a dependant and on and on......


Common core taking over our education in each state,
less state control more federal control ( removing parents from children education) We didn't learn from no child left behind
our children are less smart because of this and now because so people say so we are going to dumb down our children.. Briliant idea....

Anybody ever heard of Bernie Sanders
Bernie Sanders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
we don't need a socialist or a "progressive" for that matter in the house or the senate. In fact we as citizens should be upset and ashamed that this is the case..... why are we voting for these people?

My hell we have a president that is trying to bypass the Constitution because he can......
He should be fired for a statement like that, and he is a constitutional lawyer.
Wait! scratch that I don't want Joe Biden to be our next president. That would be scary!!!!

The reason that this is happening to our hobby is simple. In stead of selecting people that represent us in the presidency, congress, house, our judicial system, our governors, our mayors and our city councils. We select people that are more interested in their own skin, worried about their own jobs and being in office. These people are the political type... we all know the stereo type... they look for the low hanging fruit that Scott mentioned in his post so they can look like they are doing something and helping.... How many people does it take to be directly affected by those idiots in Washington before we can figure things out...

We are here at this juncture in our hobby and our lives because we have let ourselves get here, either by lack of participation, or by not caring, or by not knowing, or by lack of due diligence.

Don't me wrong I know there are those that are passionate and actively participating in the political process, but that is definitely the minority.
We all have the choice to vote people in our government. I personally think we can do better in voting for those people that are supposed to protect our rights... Just getting the word out might temporarily protect our hobby for a while, until the next congressman/women decides they need something to propel their career along and then we will be in the same boat we are now. I would propose that we also start to pick the best candidate for the job along with getting the word out so we can save our hobby.

The cool thing about living in America is we do have a say in how our government is run. So lets be more pro active not just about our hobby but for our rights too.

Ok I am getting off my soapbox

 

[uniquecorals]

This is from U.S. Fish and Wildlife service, who primarily deals with national species but does have international overlap. It does also explain at the end that breeding is not allowed for a pet. I am unsure how they would actually handle this case since any of the endangered species from our hobby will most likely only be bred by hobbyists or large entities in the hobby itself, so for them to outlaw it would be counter productive to their goal.

"For endangered species, permits may be issued for scientific research, enhancement of propagation or survival, and taking that is incidental to an otherwise lawful activity.

For threatened species, permits also may be issued for zoological, horticultural, or botanical exhibition; educational use; and special purposes consistent with the ESA.

A person registered with the FWS may obtain a captive-bred wildlife permit to buy and sell within the United States live, non-native endangered or threatened animals that were captive born in the United States for enhancement of species propagation, provided the other person in the transaction is registered for the same species. A separate permit is needed to import or export such species. Captive-bred wildlife permits are not issued to keep or breed endangered or threatened animals as pets. Using protected species as pets is not consistent with the purposes of the ESA, which is aimed at conservation of the species and recovery of wild populations."


Can find more information in link below.

http://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/faq.html

That is exactly why the industry needs to work with the government to enact legislation that is both protective of the animals while permitting some form of sustainable trade...This is a pretty serious and not-too-easy-to-work-around legislation. Once an animal is listed as protected, it is NOT eligible to be sold as a pet. Unless exceptions are written into these regulations very specific to our industry, this stuff is a very, very serious threat to the industry/hobby as we know it. It's not hype, alarmism, or sensationalism. It's potentially problematic, to say the least.

This is why we need to support PIJAC. PIJAC needs to work with the government to help craft legislation that recognizes both the need for species protection AND the ability of our industry and hobby to work with populations already in the trade within the USA. Hence, supporting businesses that engage in captive propagation is not only the correct and responsible thing to do- it may be the key to an ongoing hobby and trade of these animals. This is not a few people trying to make themselves look better than everyone else or holding themselves up on a pedestal as THE gold standard (I was accused of doing this-and making the industry look "bad" by "ranting" about it in my blogs by a fellow coral vendor in a private message this weekend.)- it's the way that EVERY coral business should be acting and sharing with the public to ensure the survival of the industry against mounting government pressure and the harassment of "environmental" groups with their own agenda in place. It's no longer just about market differentiation. Aggressive, sustainable captive propagation of corals will be the "new normal" at some point...and it SHOULD be. We ALL have to hold ourselves to higher standards consistent with both a sustainable trade and the protection of the reefs themselves. Legislation that casts a broad net on all coral trade is not a good thing for our hobby or industry.

Thanks,

Scott

 

[96silvia]

Scott,
So let me get this straight, if an animal is added to the endangered list then it cant be grown at all? So what happens if we have a coral in our tanks that is on this list?

 

[stacy_vennes]

I have 4 of those coral in my tank. what will happen to us that have those coral?

 

[Kworker]

Thinking about some other scenarios of endangered/threatened species. I mean lets take wolves for example, there are in fact states that would allow an individual to own a wolf if it pleases them. One of the requirements would be that its not of first generation and taken from the wild. Okay so if you were to translate the same form of regulations to the species we are talking about, I don't see an issue with our hobby to be honest. It would just make it illegal to take the endangered/threatened species directly from the wild but legal to own if the state chooses to allow it. Obviously owning a wolf is illegal in many states, but its the first example I could think of since I donate to wolf sanctuaries. I do think clownfish/damsels are much more aggressive than wolves too :xd:

There are also Axolotl which are endangered, it is illegal to import them but you can actually get them legally from a breeder supposedly. I am not 100% certain as I'm not really that interested in them.

There are at least some examples where endangered/threatened animals with far less captive breeding is allowable, gives our scenario good hope.

 

[ReefDVMs]

Great way Scott to speak up, I plan to share this thread for people dont realize the issue at hand.

 

[richiero]

We need to get the heavy hitters involved to get the word out about our hobby and how we care for these animals, the reef hobbyist goes above and beyond ... The eco tech's, Neptune systems, live aquaria , etc its time for you guys to step up to the plate. I myself am in boxing this article to all associated with this hobby from the little guys to the giants.

 

[uniquecorals]

We're still speculating as to how the rules would apply to animals already in possession...in fact, we're still in the speculative stage about almost everything related to the ruling, except for the very real threat it may pose to the hobby and the trade..That's where the people at PIJAC, and people like Ret Talbot, Dustin Dorton, Julian Sprung, and others can shed more light on the subject than I ever could. I'm sure there will be much forthcoming from them and others more in the know. Until we have exact information about the ramifications, it's just speculation. Regardless, it's no time to simply sit back and watch. time to get informed, and for us all to support more unified proactive efforts by those working on behalf of the hobby and industry.

-Scott

 

[Saltgator]

Mr. Saltwater is doing a live Q&A tomorrow. Thought I'd share.
https://m.facebook.com/mrsaltwatertank?_rdr

 

[reggaedrummin]

Mr. Saltwater is doing a live Q&A tomorrow. Thought I'd share.
https://m.facebook.com/mrsaltwatertank?_rdr

I tuned in right as a customer walked into my office so I had to turn it off... I missed the whole thing. Does anyone know if there's a link to the video?

 

[Saltgator]

I tuned in right as a customer walked into my office so I had to turn it off... I missed the whole thing. Does anyone know if there's a link to the video?

Just checked myself because I forgot the time of it. I'll post if I find it.

 

[reggaedrummin]

Just checked myself because I forgot the time of it. I'll post if I find it.

Thanks

 

[CherryCorals]

Now we know who is on the board thanks to this article by Ret Talbot, I am somewhat comforted seeing that these fine folks will be fighting for us.

Check it out and if you haven't yet donated to PIJAC please do so!

PIJAC Goes Public | Good Catch Blog

https://www.pijac.org/ADF

 

[shred5]

Now we know who is on the board thanks to this article by Ret Talbot, I am somewhat comforted seeing that these fine folks will be fighting for us.

Check it out and if you haven't yet donated to PIJAC please do so!

PIJAC Goes Public | Good Catch Blog

https://www.pijac.org/ADF

Yea I was going to post this yesterday but was way too busy at work so thanks for posting this..

Here is a little more too..

Orange Clownfish a Step Closer to Endangered Species Act Listing | Good Catch Blog

 

[uniquecorals]

Now we know who is on the board thanks to this article by Ret Talbot, I am somewhat comforted seeing that these fine folks will be fighting for us.

Check it out and if you haven't yet donated to PIJAC please do so!

PIJAC Goes Public | Good Catch Blog

https://www.pijac.org/ADF

Thanks for reposting this, Todd!

-Scott

 

[monkiboy]

I tuned in right as a customer walked into my office so I had to turn it off... I missed the whole thing. Does anyone know if there's a link to the video?

Just checked myself because I forgot the time of it. I'll post if I find it.

Thanks

Replay of the Live Q&A Session With Mr. Saltwater Tank About Listing of Corals As ?Threatened? Under The Endangered Species Act

 

[monkiboy]

Breaking News: USFWS Port of Los Angeles notifying aquarium trade not to import the 20 newly listed Threatened corals ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

 

[thefullmonti]

Man I bet business has been booming lately with all this fear mongering from the coral farmers.