Stocking an Aquarium with Fish Caught in the Wild, What's the Problem?

[Jay Hemdal]

Just wanna jump in here and say we didn't even talk about explosives fishing, or that the threatened status for Banggai Cardinals DOES EXIST but in specific parts of the world they are invasive species.

Just to clarify, explosive fishing is terrible, both for the reef and human safety, but it is only used for food fish, not aquarium fish.

 

[threebuoys]

Just wanna jump in here and say we didn't even talk about explosives fishing, or that the threatened status for Banggai Cardinals DOES EXIST but in specific parts of the world they are invasive species.

Go back to post #28 and you will see info on the Banggai Cardinal.

Also, I have not heard they are considered invasive anywhere. One reason they are threatened has more to do with a very limited natural range. This species is also one that is readily raised commercially, reducing the need for wild caught specimens.

If you have info about "invasive" Banggai Cardinals, please share.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Go back to post #28 and you will see info on the Banggai Cardinal.

Also, I have not heard they are considered invasive anywhere. One reason they are threatened has more to do with a very limited natural range. This species is also one that is readily raised commercially, reducing the need for wild caught specimens.

If you have info about "invasive" Banggai Cardinals, please share.

Ive heard that's true also due to the fish being either unintentionally released or escaping from aquaculture facilities in Indonesia but havent read about it from a credible source so I'm not certain.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

There are populations of Bangaii that have been established outside of their native location. This is well known. There are many colonies living off the island of Java, outside of Jakarta. Supposedly there’s others even outside the Indonesian archipelago but I’ve never seen them so can’t say with certainty they exist

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

On a fairly regular basis, this topic is discussed on this forum. I believe the vast majority of reef keepers care about the sustainability of wild reef life. I also think the majority of reef keepers have purchased wild fish and/or coral on multiple occasions. I suspect many of us have also purchased aquacultured fish and coral.

We all have our ideas of the pros and cons of keeping aquatic life. Each of us decide if we believe it is ethical. Each of us set our personal parameters for how we decide what to buy or not.

We are all aware of banned collection activities such as yellow tangs (et. al.) from Hawaii, or corals from various locations.

We are also aware of unscrupulous collection techniques (e.g. cyanide) used in some locations.

We are also aware of organizations dedicated to the preservation of natural wildlife and resources that are quick to mount campaigns against practices they abhor.

I am all for the advancement of cultured corals and fish. I also believe wild populations can be successfully harvested but should be sustained.

Questions I hope someone can answer:

Has our hobby led to any fish or coral being designated by world authorities as "threatened" or "endangered"?

Are any species designated by the process enacted by the U.S. "Endangered Species Act"?

Are unscrupulous collection methods/locations documented and available for reef keepers to consider before making purchases?

Does anyone know?

I know. Wild fisheries managed by science are 100% sustainable and should be supported. Other unregulated fisheries should be encouraged to have oversight not necessarily because they’re destructive, but to calm regulators down that are worked up by uniformed activists. Better methods of collection can and should be universalized, and that’s a goal we should all support. I’ve trained many fishers throughout the world but there’s so much more that can be done.

Many people mistakenly think these fisheries are actually hurting natural resources but I would argue the opposite. This type of impact is very selective and gentle on the reefs compared to other industries/impacts. The AQ industry is really small and the amounts of fish or percent of populations is minimal. Once you understand the reproductive strategies/capabilities of these marine fish, you can begin to understand how small the amount taken actually is. By the hobbyists supporting these fisheries worldwide, this fosters good stewardship of these marine resources where as without it, more destructive impacts can and do occur.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

For anyone looking to support something better, KPA Aquatics fish are net caught, diver direct so they go from them to your door avoiding the issues of the wholesalers/supply chain. Just sign up for in stock notifications as these fish are obviously not being collected on a massive scale so there is some wait time.

Plus the founder now runs a nonprofit organization that restores coral reefs and critically endangered corals in the Florida area so you are supporting a family that truly cares.

Ken Nedimyer: Steward of Reef Restoration

Ken Nedimyer, an Upper Keys–based director of Reef Renewal Foundation International, is globally recognized as a father of reef restoration, creating strategies to rebuild coral reefs around the world. He oversees three coral nurseries in the Keys — off Tavernier, Big Pine Key and Marathon —...

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Coral Restoration Foundation | United States

Dive into the largest coral reef restoration effort in the world and join us in creating a climate of change!

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Welcome to KPAquatics

We are providing healthy, hand-captured Atlantic Sea Life for over 25 years. We would like to tell you more about us and who we are. Please click here to learn more. Ship Days / Guarantee We normally ship every Monday and Tuesday to ensure save arrival of your order. Follow this link for...

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Ken is a good guy. Dove with him several times

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

On the topic of cyanide, tbh, as a commercial AQ fisher that’s been all over from Australia to Mauritius and back again, I’ve never seen someone use cyanide. I’ve literally caught fish with local fishers all around the world using fine mesh nets or other techniques and these guys were capable collectors. They don’t need cyanide. Mostly what I see that’s going wrong are a few things that happen(or don’t) in handling or post capture. Some places are really remote and lack infrastructure. These issues are often overlooked by people searching for the causes of problems. Saying cyanide is the easy way out. I’m not saying it’s not possible that someone somewhere use it, or that it was more widespread in the past, I’m saying it’s not prevalent in most fisheries around the world as it’s not necessary nor convenient. A trained fisher with a net or traps, can catch any fish in good quantities anywhere in the world. Netting is not as hard to get these days

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

All in all, I think the reason wild collection is so controversial is due to the same reason as the majority of controversial topics...The majority of people already have their minds made up which side they side with and regardless of any evidence the opposing side presents, they won't even consider there might be at least some truth in it. Yeah, they might read something you send hoping to find fault somewhere every second, but generally not willing to believe anything that opposes whatever they first believed.
No, I'm not excluding myself from this, only acknowledging what seems to be apparent.

 

[Northern Flicker]

I just can’t wrap my head around how many hobbyists see fish and coral as expendable.

There is nothing unethical about keeping a reef or fish (in my opinion) but we have many captive bred/aquacultured options and I think only human hubris can explain why we still feel we need to collect wild animals. 90% of us aren’t qualified for it.

 

[Northern Flicker]

On the topic of cyanide, tbh, as a commercial AQ fisher that’s been all over from Australia to Mauritius and back again, I’ve never seen someone use cyanide. I’ve literally caught fish with local fishers all around the world using fine mesh nets or other techniques and these guys were capable collectors. They don’t need cyanide. Mostly what I see that’s going wrong are a few things that happen(or don’t) in handling or post capture. Some places are really remote and lack infrastructure. These issues are often overlooked by people searching for the causes of problems. Saying cyanide is the easy way out. I’m not saying it’s not possible that someone somewhere use it, or that it was more widespread in the past, I’m saying it’s not prevalent in most fisheries around the world as it’s not necessary nor convenient. A trained fisher with a net or traps, can catch any fish in good quantities anywhere in the world. Netting is not as hard to get these days

Are you in the industry?

Do you derive income from the hobby at some point int eh supply chain or are you just a diving and collecting for personal fun?

 

[threebuoys]

I know. Wild fisheries managed by science are 100% sustainable and should be supported. Other unregulated fisheries should be encouraged to have oversight not necessarily because they’re destructive, but to calm regulators down that are worked up by uniformed activists. Better methods of collection can and should be universalized, and that’s a goal we should all support. I’ve trained many fishers throughout the world but there’s so much more that can be done.

Many people mistakenly think these fisheries are actually hurting natural resources but I would argue the opposite. This type of impact is very selective and gentle on the reefs compared to other industries/impacts. The AQ industry is really small and the amounts of fish or percent of populations is minimal. Once you understand the reproductive strategies/capabilities of these marine fish, you can begin to understand how small the amount taken actually is. By the hobbyists supporting these fisheries worldwide, this fosters good stewardship of these marine resources where as without it, more destructive impacts can and do occur.

Well said

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I just can’t wrap my head around how many hobbyists see fish and coral as expendable.

There is nothing unethical about keeping a reef or fish (in my opinion) but we have many captive bred/aquacultured options and I think only human hubris can explain why we still feel we need to collect wild animals. 90% of us aren’t qualified for it.

I think for most people who have the option to buy CB fish it comes down to the price difference. You also have to keep in mind the fact that this is a global hobby and captive breeding companies simply cant produce enough supply to meet demand and also that these companies don't export the fish worldwide. Plus, these companies focus on breeding species with the greatest demand so the majority of species arent widely available to many hobbyists through captive breeding. I think those would be a few reasons.

 

[threebuoys]

There are populations of Bangaii that have been established outside of their native location. This is well known. There are many colonies living off the island of Java, outside of Jakarta. Supposedly there’s others even outside the Indonesian archipelago but I’ve never seen them so can’t say with certainty they exist

I guess I've missed this information. I only got back into the hobby 5 years ago, and I haven't come across this. . Curious, do you know if the Bangaii cardinal is being harvested in these other locations? (I doubt they are causing the problems lionfish have caused off the Florida coast!.)

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I guess I've missed this information. I only got back into the hobby 5 years ago, and I haven't come across this. . Curious, do you know if the Bangaii cardinal is being harvested in these other locations? (I doubt they are causing the problems lionfish have caused off the Florida coast!.)

Because it's listed as endangered, I highly doubt it. I dont see a reason why they would be used to supply the aquarium trade even if they are collected because they're so abundantly available through aquaculture.

 

[Northern Flicker]

I think for most people who have the option to buy CB fish it comes down to the price difference. You also have to keep in mind the fact that this is a global hobby and captive breeding companies simply cant produce enough supply to meet demand and also that these companies don't export the fish worldwide. Plus, these companies focus on breeding species with the greatest demand so the majority of species arent widely available to many hobbyists through captive breeding. I think those would be a few reasons.

For sure, but then again, maybe that just means don’t buy the banner fish?

I have no issues with people like Humblefish or Elliot Lim trying to take care of wild caught, but a lot of these suppliers and retailers are pretty bootleg and the vast majority of hobbyists probably shouldn’t be attempting many of these difficult fish.

I really like that video by the BRS Ryan guy, how he hopes more hobbyists will focus on the success of keeping the animals correctly rather than just having a cool and different tank.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Because it's listed as endangered, I highly doubt it. I dont see a reason why they would be used to supply the aquarium trade even if they are collected because they're so abundantly available through aquaculture.

I think someone debunked this in a previous thread with evidence that many are still catching Bengaiis and mixing them with captive bred in East Asia. Bengaiis are east but even the easiest to rear fish are still much more work and expense then paying a diver in Vietnam $0.50 an hour USD to catch several dozen.

 

[threebuoys]

Because it's listed as endangered, I highly doubt it. I dont see a reason why they would be used to supply the aquarium trade even if they are collected because they're so abundantly available through aquaculture.

Could be, but since these colonies are located in areas other than where they originated, these areas may not suffer the same issues. And, we still have wild Banggai imported. So, perhaps they are coming from areas beyond where they were identified as threatened. Just wondering.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

Could be, but since these colonies are located in areas other than where they originated, these areas may not suffer the same issues. And, we still have wild Banggai imported. So, perhaps they are coming from areas beyond where they were identified as threatened. Just wondering.

Yes they were as of ten years ago, I don’t know about currently. The exporters in Jakarta would get their bangaii from these newly established colonies as it was way more convenient than bringing them in from Sulawesi. There’s a place called Thousand islands just north of the main island of Java where some of these populations exist and are utilized(or were, not sure about now)

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

I would suspect the “wild” ones still coming out of Indo are from these populations

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Could be, but since these colonies are located in areas other than where they originated, these areas may not suffer the same issues. And, we still have wild Banggai imported. So, perhaps they are coming from areas beyond where they were identified as threatened. Just wondering.

Just checked a few things out...there definitely seems to be evidence they're still being illegally collected within their native habitat so I dont think anyone truly knows how many are collected illegally or legally from tge wild.