Stocking an Aquarium with Fish Caught in the Wild, What's the Problem?

[Hawaii hobbyist]

Are you in the industry?

Do you derive income from the hobby at some point int eh supply chain or are you just a diving and collecting for personal fun?

You’re always harping on me about this for some reason like you have a bone to pick. I’ve made it quite clear who I am. My name was “Kona diver” now I’ve changed it to reflect my current status.

I am a lifelong aquarist and enthusiast and my entire life has been built around aquariums, fish and coral. My passion in the hobby turned into a career. I’m a commercial fisher and exporter and I’ve worked around the world on various issues surrounding AQ and reef related stuff. Now, I’m also an activists for both the trade and the hobby on a local and international level. Based on all the comments you make about me all over the place, you seem to think I don’t have a right to participate in the dialogue but I reject that outright. I have every right to share my insight and I have a lot to share. Maybe stop with the negative energy and realize I am working for good causes

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

The extent of cyanide use seems to also be difficult to accurately measure because people doing illegal activities generally dont keep records of their crimes or report them for obvious reasons. Personally, I really dont think jts as prevalent of an issue as it used to be.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

Just checked a few things out...there definitely seems to be evidence they're still being illegally collected within their native habitat so I dont think anyone truly knows how many are collected illegally or legally from tge wild.

No one is collecting them from their native source anymore. This is because satellite colonies were established closer to the point of export in Indo.(Jakarta&Bali)

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

The extent of cyanide use seems to also be difficult to accurately measure because people doing illegal activities generally dont keep records of their crimes or report them for obvious reasons. Personally, I really dont think jts as prevalent of an issue as it used to be.

It’s not. Most fisheries worldwide never used it to begin with

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

No one is collecting them from their native source anymore

This could have easily changed since this study cited was conducted but I think it's safe to say that nobody knows for sure at this point.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

This could have easily changed since this study cited was conducted but I think it's safe to say that nobody knows for sure at this point.

Yes, it did change. Satellite colonies were established around 2003-5 and as they grew the native source was phased out. It makes sense there may have still been a little bit of fishing lingering on in 2011.

People that do know are the exporters in Indonesia(they know where they get them from)and their export customs know the quantities of fish being shipped

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Yes, it did change. Satellite colonies were established around 2003-5 and as they grew the native source was phased out. It makes sense there may have still been a little bit of fishing lingering on in 2011.

People that do know are the exporters in Indonesia(they know where they get them from)and their export customs know the quantities of fish being shipped

I'd still have to wonder if the exporters really spend the time and energy determining whether the fish collected truly are collected from the location they're told and how much they really care to be honest since they're making money from the exports. It seems like this would vary by exporting company and customs only knows what they report.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

I'd still have to wonder if the exporters really spend the time and energy determining whether the fish collected truly are collected from the location they're told and how much they really care to be honest since they're making money from the exports. It seems like this would vary by exporting company and customs only knows what they report.

they do, as it’s part of the way everything is set up with their governing resource authorities. Outside of that, the main reason the exporter would order his fishers/affiliates to send the fish from Thousand Islands over getting them from Manado Sulawesi(export hub for Sulawesi including Bangaii island) is a matter of convenience, cost, and survivability. Why get fish from far away that are poorly handled and more expansive when you can now get them down the street. This is the very reason satellite colonies were established

 

[threebuoys]

I'd still have to wonder if the exporters really spend the time and energy determining whether the fish collected truly are collected from the location they're told and how much they really care to be honest since they're making money from the exports. It seems like this would vary by exporting company and customs only knows what they report.

My guess is @Hawaii hobbyist has a lot more first hand knowledge about how exporters operating than we do.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

My guess is @Hawaii hobbyist has a lot more first hand knowledge about how exporters operating than we do.

You could say I’ve seen some stuff my friend!

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

But it’s good to see people like @livinlifeinBKK have such an interest in this topic. I like it

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

But it’s good to see people like @livinlifeinBKK have such an interest in this topic. I like it

I believe wild collection is positive as long as its well managed and there are governing bodies that do investigate and ensure that collection is regulated in a way which supports sustainability. My skepticism surrounding illegal capture and export (particularly in southeast Asia) stems from understanding the extent of corruption at many levels as well as personal communications with a collector based in Bali who told me that he's well aware of illegal collection and illegal exports by others in the country.
Wild collection has many positive effects that not many people are aware of (as long as it's legal and sustainable).

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@Hawaii hobbyist I have no idea what this guy's issue is with you or how he can say something like this which actually insults the majority of hobbyists globally.

I just can’t wrap my head around how many hobbyists see fish and coral as expendable.

There is nothing unethical about keeping a reef or fish (in my opinion) but we have many captive bred/aquacultured options and I think only human hubris can explain why we still feel we need to collect wild animals. 90% of us aren’t qualified for it.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I think my reply to his comment addressed a few of the primary points he's missing...I was actually hoping to hear his response.

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

I believe wild collection is positive as long as its well managed and there are governing bodies that do investigate and ensure that collection is regulated in a way which supports sustainability. My skepticism surrounding illegal capture and export (particularly in southeast Asia) stems from understanding the extent of corruption at many levels as well as personal communications with a collector based in Bali who told me that he's well aware of illegal collection and illegal exports by others in the country.
Wild collection has many positive effects that not many people are aware of (as long as it's legal and sustainable).

Agree and I think I know who you have spoken with and if it is this person, I’ll say this…there’s two sides to the story on this and sometimes people use situations like this to attack competitors and boost themselves up. But not 100% sure if we are speaking about the same person(who I know does this…don’t dislike him…old friend)

I fully agree with you on sustainable wild collection…it is great when well managed with scientific oversight and I’ve been advocating and taking part in that here in Hawaii, and around the world.

 

[Northern Flicker]

@Hawaii hobbyist are you involved with fish collection or the industry of reefing? Just curious

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

@Hawaii hobbyist I have no idea what this guy's issue is with you or how he can say something like this which actually insults the majority of hobbyists globally.

To me, this guy seems to be very opinionated and unfortunately not very educated on how things work.

I think my reply to his comment addressed a few of the primary points he's missing...I was actually hoping to hear his response.

I could say ALOT of things about NF but I want to give peace a chance

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ive heard that's true also due to the fish being either unintentionally released or escaping from aquaculture facilities in Indonesia but havent read about it from a credible source so I'm not certain.

The presumed spread of this fish is thought to be intentional - to create populations closer to export hubs that could then be exploited for the pet trade. This has happened in Florida, where people have tried releasing royal gramma locally, in the hopes of being able to catch and sell them locally, as opposed to having to import them from Haiti (that didn't work).

 

[Hawaii hobbyist]

The presumed spread of this fish is thought to be intentional - to create populations closer to export hubs that could then be exploited for the pet trade. This has happened in Florida, where people have tried releasing royal gramma locally, in the hopes of being able to catch and sell them locally, as opposed to having to import them from Haiti (that didn't work).

Precisely

 

[Northern Flicker]

I'd still have to wonder if the exporters really spend the time and energy determining whether the fish collected truly are collected from the location they're told and how much they really care to be honest since they're making money from the exports. It seems like this would vary by exporting company and customs only knows what they report.

Not to mention the corruption.

If you don’t believe me, talk to any honest LFS owner. Customs ain’t stopping anything. I’ve heard some really sketchy stories of people in the supply chain massaging the numbers anytime a regulation might bite into the business.

Corruption in Indonesia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org