Red Sea Tank Fails, AGAIN! Any Recommendations?

TheDuude · Apr 25, 2023

So does Red Sea specify a line expectancy for their rimless tanks when full of saltwater 24/7?
I have an ageing 525xl and wondering if I should be planning a replacement now.

It seems like the failures tend to occur on the front glass opposite the return nozzle.. I wonder if the flow from return is placing more pressure on front glass. Also interesting the G2 tanks have dual returns off the the side.

exnisstech · Apr 25, 2023

TheDuude said:
Also interesting the G2 tanks have dual returns off the the side.

I recently purchased a 300 g2 and it came with a single and a dual return so I could use either

Lowell Lemon · Apr 25, 2023

TheDuude said:
So does Red Sea specify a line expectancy for their rimless tanks when full of saltwater 24/7?
I have an ageing 525xl and wondering if I should be planning a replacement now.

It seems like the failures tend to occur on the front glass opposite the return nozzle.. I wonder if the flow from return is placing more pressure on front glass. Also interesting the G2 tanks have dual returns off the the side.

Flow from returns or wave makers should never effect seam integrity. I can't imagine anyone making their tanks on the bleeding edge of panel thickness. I suspect RedSea is not using the German silicone recommended by many custom tank builders. They are instead possibly using a Chinese knock off silicone that does not have the same characteristics. Red Sea is made in China in "their" factory.

I surveyed the aquarium industry in China a few years ago looking to import private label rimless tanks cause they just look so nice! Most are made by a few companies under private label at prices I could not even buy the glass for in the US. Long story short I pulled the plug on the venture due to the supply chain, doubts about quality control and dealing with Alibaba. Prepayment and they will not accept international letters of credit. Both my banker and attorney advised against rolling the dice.

I think these tanks are beautiful but the growing list of failures is very worrying.

BeanAnimal · Apr 25, 2023

Lowell Lemon said:
Flow from returns or wave makers should never effect seam integrity. I can't imagine anyone making their tanks on the bleeding edge of panel thickness. I suspect RedSea is not using the German silicone recommended by many custom tank builders. They are instead possibly using a Chinese knock off silicone that does not have the same characteristics. Red Sea is made in China in "their" factory.

I surveyed the aquarium industry in China a few years ago looking to import private label rimless tanks cause they just look so nice! Most are made by a few companies under private label at prices I could not even buy the glass for in the US. Long story short I pulled the plug on the venture due to the supply chain, doubts about quality control and dealing with Alibaba. Prepayment and they will not accept international letters of credit. Both my banker and attorney advised against rolling the dice.

I think these tanks are beautiful but the growing list of failures is very worrying.

Pretty much this 100%

Made in China
--> IP Theft (not the real product, but something resembling)
--> Quality Control
--> Spec vs Product
--> Supply chain and substitution
--> Lack of consumer advocacy
-->Lack of legal remedy

Even made in USA or EU will have possible raw materials substitution with knock-off or counterfeit materials, etc.
But made in China is almost a guarantee of cut corners and high failure rates of ANY product. It is not that they are not capable of quality, they just don't care. Crank it out and get paid, money flows up to the government.

brandon429 · Apr 25, 2023

May we please discuss seam breaks in 2-3 yr tanks

I'm noticing an uptick in posts about seam breaks can we get input on the matter pls/ prevention or assistance details There are enough breaks logged, not acknowledged much other than web forums. Buyers have honed down a concern over a certain production lot so as to warn one another about...

www.reef2reef.com

I don't think it's beating a dead horse at all to let tank owners vent, link up shared experiences, post about remediation options etc.

brandon429 · Apr 25, 2023

I think we need to know if owners of non broken tanks need to preemptively shore up the seals

SteveMM62Reef · Apr 25, 2023

I believe CDA, “Crystal Dynamics Aquatics,” out of Oceanside California has Double Euro Braced Tanks in low iron glass. There is a black glass brace inside the bottom, which is covered with your gravel, and a brace at the top.

brandon429 · Apr 25, 2023

Am feeling compelled on behalf of red sea owners, certainly not against them. I didn't even make mention that all eight pages of my false ammonia alert thread is ___ ___ brand ammonia test kits

I'm usually trying to soothe rs owners

vetteguy53081 · Apr 25, 2023

MnFish1 said:
EDIT - I did not realize your problem when you posted - you can forget this answer. I hope everything goes ok.

You gave it a try - but when you build assumption on assumption on assumption - it makes the conclusion a bit weaker (not necessarily false). I don't know where you get the concept that for 10 years the trend has been acrylic. But - there is also a thread complaining about a major acrylic tank manufacturer (which can be searched for here - but I won't name because I didn't have any issues with them). So I'm going to do the math a little differently

1. There are 800,000 saltwater aquarists in the US.
2. Many people have more than 1 tank (I have 2 Redsea - and 2 bow front marineland tanks.
3. so lets say the average aquarist has 1.5 tanks. so - there are 1.2 million tanks in the US for SALTWATER
4. This does not include freshwater tanks. My guess is there are a lot more (in fact - according to google, there are 11.8 million households according to one article. Fish are the highest kept pet in the US. (this site says 2.9 million saltwater tanks) - but lets use the 1.2 million in #3.
5. This means there are about 13 million households in the US with aquaria.
6. Will use your figure, 15% RedSea - 1.95 million tanks.

Am I doing the math incorrectly?

Then factor the number of persons who have not listed or mentioned their tank failures

MnFish1 · Apr 25, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
Then factor the number of persons who have not listed or mentioned their tank failures

True - Like I said there is no 'hard data'. We also don't have the number of other tank failures (from other brands). I'm not a 'fan' of RedSea. I'm raising my questions because I have 2 of their tanks - and if indeed there is a systemic problem - I am trying to hash it out. Thats it. Secondly - is it a problem only with the 'old' RedSea tanks - or is it also the new versions? I'm looking to buy 2 new tanks.

fpizart · Apr 25, 2023

Lavey29 said:
Saltwater 2 years, freshwater 5 decades off and on.

So I will tell you this much, I m sure you already noticed that maturing a saltwater tank, especially a reef ecosystem, takes a LOT of time and dedication. Depending on the corals you have, high flow with strong pumps is not only a possibility but a requirement. The truth is that we will not see that evidence unless RS is forced to show it in court. Not everyone comes here and posts about their issue and not everyone classifies the post correctly. I will say this much tho, living in Miami I have a lot of local stores that stock RS tanks. The overwhelming majority of these stores confirmed that the 525 and 750 tanks definitely have issues with the front seams breaking. One of them told me they had a long list of owners that were complaining to them. They are advising me to downgrade to a smaller tank or go to WB.

Sdot · Apr 25, 2023

fpizart said:
Hi everyone! I have an emergency and cannot really believe this is happening to me again. Back in 2019 I purchased what I thought was a wonderful tank! Everything was going great with my Red Sea 525 XL until it started leaking from one of the sides in 2020. Of course, I lost livestock and suffered some damages caused by the water. After reaching out, Red Sea agreed to change my tank and sent me a “new one“ under the limited warranty. Fast forward to last Friday 4/21/23 at 4:00 AM and my tank was leaking AGAIN! This time, the leak was from the bottom and the tank dumped all the water out in less than 2 minutes. I was able to save all my fish and transfer them to the sump. The corals I had were then placed in a small Waterbox tank. This is the second time in less thank 5 years that my tank fails on me. I do not scrape the edge, I do not go crazy cleaning, my stand and tank are perfectly leveled, etc. My questions are:

Is this a common issue with this tanks? I see tons of posts and a local guy told me the brand is prone to issues with the side and bottom silicone.

What brand do you guys recommend? I am between Innovative Marine and WaterBox, but I am open to suggestions.

Thank you!

Euro braced planet tank.....FTW

BeanAnimal · Apr 25, 2023

With the information that we do have, It appears that they do have a significant materials problem. Tank construction is pretty straight forward.

There are just too many reports positively depicting the same failure mode.

Is you (or anybody else's) tank at risk of failure? I would say the odds are higher than they should be.

If it is not materials... could it be:
-production run
-material lot
-mis-calibrated adhesive applicator at a single station
-assembly line person or they and those they trained
-etc.

Or is this all just imagined and is their failure rate on-par with any other system that size, based on sales volume.

Those questions can only be answered by RedSea.... something that they will not likely address in public or private without careful consideration of their wording.

I would assume (sadly) that there is a large monetary and reputation calculus in play here as to how or if they respond.

If they recall, they admit a defect of some kind (materials, engineering, workmanship) and open themselves to what is sure to be mass litigation (class or not).

If they quietly work to improve the defect (if one exists) and deal with the one-off replacements and lawsuits without admitting fault, that is another calculus...

Either has a cost involving compensation, future reputation, etc. The gamble is always choosing option 2 and hoping that it never snowballs into option 1, because that is a double hit.

fpizart · Apr 25, 2023

MnFish1 said:
I think you're possibly incorrect - though of course one can't tell exactly, the fact that RedSea has by far the highest number of followers and likes suggest to me that there is not a groundswell of dissatisfaction with their products. It also explains perhaps why the biggest number of problems seems to concern RedSea as compared to, for example, some of the others. But - in reality you're correct, it's hard to get 'hard' data. But - I think a lot of the ideas about RedSea are similar to the comments that API tests are much much worse than others. API tests have been shown in at least a couple 'studies' to be equivalent to others - or at least there was no clear winner out of all the testing kits. But - a lot of people use them because they are less expensive.

Back to Redsea - it is much more likely that someone who has a problem with their tank to post on a forum, as compared to the hundreds of people using them without problems. BRS on their website states that: "Red Sea Reefers have really established themselves in recent years as being one of the best premium off-the-shelf tanks you can buy. Almost every major city will have some location in which you can go see one of the tanks in person. We have well over a handful of these tanks here at the BRS headquarters including the E170 lab and ULM tanks, an XXL750 in the lobby that we worked on with World Wide Coralsand the E260 that is a frequent back drop for our videos." "From our experience, most owners are impressed with the quality and are happy with the results." (yes - I know they want to sell tanks)

@MnFish1 I believe you are failing to get the bigger picture here my friend. As I mentioned before, I am not new to this at all! I have had several tanks, some even from Petsmart, and have never experienced this issue. Yes, RS has a higher chance of failing because it sells more tanks. I will repeat myself, I am not here to say that RS sucks as a brand. In fact, I am very happy with my smaller QT system. However, there is an overwhelming number of customers that are experiencing issues with some models. Again, I am not an expert, but 3 local stores and a local tank repair guy in Miami (Big city with lots of reef tanks) are telling me that there is a trend that they have never seen before. Want the evidence? Only RS can provide that in a court of law or to an attorney when they are asked to show how many sales and how many failures are reported for the AFFECTED MODELS, not for their entire lineup.

That's how data and evidence need to be collected in this situation. Facebook likes, followers, etc. do not provide an accurate picture. Furthermore, I'm sure you are aware that most of the users out there DO NOT have big tanks. And unfortunately, those are the ones that appear to have issues. I don't care for RS or WT, Im just a guy who needs good quality tanks for his money and does not want over 100 gallons of water on his floor for a third time.

MnFish1 · Apr 25, 2023

fpizart said:
@MnFish1 I believe you are failing to get the bigger picture here my friend. As I mentioned before, I am not new to this at all! I have had several tanks, some even from Petsmart, and have never experienced this issue. Yes, RS has a higher chance of failing because it sells more tanks. I will repeat myself, I am not here to say that RS sucks as a brand. In fact, I am very happy with my smaller QT system. However, there is an overwhelming number of customers that are experiencing issues with some models. Again, I am not an expert, but 3 local stores and a local tank repair guy in Miami (Big city with lots of reef tanks) are telling me that there is a trend that they have never seen before. Want the evidence? Only RS can provide that in a court of law or to an attorney when they are asked to show how many sales and how many failures are reported for the AFFECTED MODELS, not for their entire lineup.

That's how data and evidence need to be collected in this situation. Facebook likes, followers, etc. do not provide an accurate picture. Furthermore, I'm sure you are aware that most of the users out there DO NOT have big tanks. And unfortunately, those are the ones that appear to have issues. I don't care for RS or WT, Im just a guy who needs good quality tanks for his money and does not want over 100 gallons of water on his floor for a third time.

I was replying to a different person. (The person who just reported that his non-RedSea tank had started leaking). I completely get the 'big picture'. I've been doing this for many years as well.

I guess I would have the following questions:

1. how many of the reported failures of big tanks did not install the recommended bracing?
2. How many of the reported failures were 'used'
3. What do the big promoters of RedSea (including BRS) say about the issue?
4. Are there any other factors that may be playing a role in the failures.

Of course it would also be nice for RedSea to respond However - I believe that those types of posts need to be made (i.e. a user complaint) in the 'vendor forum' - and then others are not allowed to respond. I'm surprised that R2R has not commented on the issue. @Daniel@R2R

Cell · Apr 25, 2023

@MnFish1 This post wasn't made looking for remediation from RS, it was made to understand how common this issue is and to figure out what brand of tank to turn to. It's not a vendor feedback thread. Not sure why you decided to play mod now after engaging in the thread already.

EliMelly · Apr 25, 2023

brandon429 said:
I think we need to know if owners of non broken tanks need to preemptively shore up the seals

Is there a way to do that? Would definitely consider it.

BeanAnimal · Apr 25, 2023

I am going to guess at some answers.

1. I think these all (or mostly all come with stands correct? Threads I have seen are on RS stands, but I may be fully uninformed about how these are sold.

2. I would assume that doesn't matter if they are on the factory stand, otherwise that may be relevant.

3. I am going to guess BRS is big enough and smart enough to stay as far away from commenting as possible and at the same time continue to sell the systems if they are not responsible and it they are significant bottom line item.

R2R may quickly (or has already) found themselves to be in the same boat as BRS and others in terms of being caught in the middle with a vested interest in both the consumers happiness and the manufacturer relationship. Be this a real or imagined failure problem... it has legs.