Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[MnFish1]

Yes, it not a word that I recall ever encountering.

It would be a very bad day if an animal study I was performing had that result. lol

That's the Kuhns material. hydroxymethanesulfonate. His patent also only compared bagged marine fish to his expectation of what might have happened without it.

U.S. Pat. No. 4,666,610

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9d/8d/7d/82bd73cbbe0819/US4666610.pdf

example 8

Four such boxes containing a total of 65 bags of liveanimals were then shipped from St. Thomas, via scheduled common air carrier, to Miami, Fla., thence to Kansas City, Mo. The total shipping time was approximately 48 hours. No untreated controls were used inthis test.It is well known among aquaculturists that marinefishes and invertebrates suffer from and succumb toammonia build-up in shipping bags containing untreatedwater and that significant losses can be expected. However, there were no deaths of any of the marine fishesand invertebrates shipped in #2 SFB treated-seawater.The health and condition of the fishes and invertebratesupon arrival and subsequent removal to holding aquariawas contrary to what would have occurred if no provision for ammonia control had been made.

Thanks - like I said - I used it as more of an 'emergency treatment' where I knew I messed up. I have done so 3 times - and each time - this product has helped. Reading - the somewhat difficult prose - it seems like they agree (in this particular study)

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks - like I said - I used it as more of an 'emergency treatment' where I knew I messed up. I have done so 3 times - and each time - this product has helped. Reading - the somewhat difficult prose - it seems like they agree (in this particular study)

Now - you might ask - how/why did I mess up so much lol - I removed the rock from my tank - into basically a bare bottom situation - with little (nothing) in the sump. If I feed too much its an issue

 

[gbroadbridge]

By the way, hydroxymethanesulphonic acid is found many places in the environment, and I think even in beer.

Which may well explain a lot of these screwy patents.

 

[MnFish1]

Better, arrange a teleconference or Zoom call for everyone on R2R. I wonder if they would agree to being recorded for a YouTube video presentation

I just know that every time I called I was connected to a live person the same day. Email was not very successful. It was only a suggestion

 

[MnFish1]

The mechanism that Seachem claims is refuted. Since Seachem provides no data, what is there to say it does anything useful?

Anecdotes that fish improved, with no control fish, is no more convincing than a cold that went away after eating applesauce.

I don't remember if I answered this - I agree with you that the mechanism Seachem claims is at odds with the experimental results (in fact I repeated the experiment - and posted a year or more ago that I agree that there is no evidence that Prime works the way Seachem says it does).

However, just a quick point, fish that are dying, laying on the ground, or floating, who turn around within an hour after the addition of certain chemicals means that the sick fish can act as their own control. Notice, I'm not talking about putting a chemical in the water and 2 weeks later everything is better. I'm talking about putting a chemical in the water and 1-2 hours they are back to normal. You're right it's anecdote, but - its fairly convincing that certain products can 'detoxify' ammonia. Whether its brand A, or B, or C wasn't my point, merely that it can be done. Based on the product I posted about - it was clear that multiple fish in the tank were near death - and normal in an hour. There are also multiple anecdotes that Prime and Amquel have done the same thing. Is it pH? Is it collective hysteria? IDK - but - again - I agree with you - the experiments that have been done suggest its not lowering free ammonia as measured by their test kits

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

However, just a quick point, fish that are dying, laying on the ground, or floating, who turn around within an hour after the addition of certain chemicals means that the sick fish can act as their own control. Notice, I'm not talking about putting a chemical in the water and 2 weeks later everything is better. I'm talking about putting a chemical in the water and 1-2 hours they are back to normal. You're right it's anecdote, but - its fairly convincing that certain products can 'detoxify' ammonia. Whether its brand A, or B, or C wasn't my point, merely that it can be done. Based on the product I posted about - it was clear that multiple fish in the tank were near death - and normal in an hour. There are also multiple anecdotes that Prime and Amquel have done the same thing. Is it pH? Is it collective hysteria? IDK - but - again - I agree with you - the experiments that have been done suggest its not lowering free ammonia as measured by their test kits

As far as I know, you are the only one reporting this here, and you report it in fresh water, which no one here tested for effects of Prime that I recall..

Perhaps Seachem never tested it in seawater either.

FWIW, they obviously never tested some of their other products at all, so it would not be surprising if they did not test Prime in seawater.

 

[MnFish1]

There were the amphipods - which were subjected to ammonia with or without prime. Prime was added at 1x recommended dose for each 1 ppm total ammonia.
final amounts were 12x ppm total ammonia and 16x prime.
The amphipods exposed to the ammonia died equally fast with or without Prime.

Some found it persuasive, others argued for pages that we should pretend the experiment wasn't done at all.




Sure, it would be more persuasive at lower total ammonia levels and done on fish, but nobody is likely to do so, since nobody seems confident that the product(s) would actually protect the fish from toxic ammonia in a pH-controlled test.

The amphipod experiment was done in a way that did not contain the same water conditions that would be seen in any aquarium. Which is why it's difficult to say whether it helps the theory or not. On balance - I would say it supports your idea that Prime does not detoxify ammonia - but is hard to interpret completely.

 

[MnFish1]

I understand the thought. I looked at the rosy minnows churning in a petco tank for 22 cents each.
Consider how large the possibility is the results will be inconclusive or less conclusive than you hope.

Do you know LC50 NH3 data for those guppies? (I don't)
Erratic behavior is sort of in the eye of the beholder. It might be necessary to go to loss of swimming or death to be definitive.
Think about how high you are willing to go in total ammonia and pH and still consider it was a "fair test" of Prime in your eyes.
If all you are willing to do is go up to 5ppm total ammonia (what Prime explicitly says it is meant to cover), at pH 8.3, then compare the resulting calculated NH3 - 0.398 mg/L NH3 to the LC50 data (which I don't know if we have) for the fish.

If you have to go to something like 4 days, then the complications mount dramatically. You have to think carefully about feeding, or it's partially a starvation test.
If you feed, you introduce the possibility of heterotrophs using the carbon and lowering NH3 by some amount. You may need to do once or twice daily 100% water changes at the target ammonia and matched pH to be certain you are actually maintaining those values.
Newly bought fish bring diseases etc. Those diseases can affect an entire tank. I'm fairly confident an experienced reefer can recognize fish disease, but if the ammonia stress persists for days - disease may be a manifestation of the stress.

edit: I found some LC50 NH3 data.
From EPA guideline[pdf]
"Rubin and Elmaraghy (1976, 1977) tested guppy (Poecilia reticulata) fry
and reported 96-hour LC5Os (Table 1) averaging 1.50 mg/liter NH3; mature
guppy males were more tolerant, with 100 percent survival for 96 hours at
concentrations of 0.17 to 1.58 mg/liter NH3."

That seems to put them entirely out of range for a definitive test within your bounds of what's "fair" to Prime. So I'd say this test is not worth attempting.

I think this is a general problem - most anything we'd be sorta OK with killing by ammonia is likely too tough to do so within the explicit amounts that Prime claims it protects from.

I did a lot of research when preparing to do the experiment - including looking up the LC50 of ammonia on percale clowns, as well as designing methods that would allow removal of fish if they had certain types of distress - however, there was a bit of a debate as to whether it would be ethical - especially in countries other than the USA (where regulations on treating pets/animals/fish are different) - so that experiment was 'scrapped'.

 

[MnFish1]

Be nice if someone somewhere claiming it worked showed a single bit of experimental evidence it worked, or a chemical rationale of how it might possibly work.

Just to make sure that you understand that I agree with you - the fish that I had which were 'moribund' were large freshwater discus - and the product I used was NOT Prime but rather a different one. I only used it because a discus expert said the symptoms suggested nitrite poisoning and thus a high ammonia due to an overfeeding accident. But - my experience with that product showed an almost immediate (15 minute or less effect) and complete recovery in about an hour. (note that Prime also claims to detoxify nitrite and nitrate - I realize we've already been over this). I believe - if one searches - there are numerous posts claiming success (and no success) with Prime.

 

[MnFish1]

ClorAmX under similar experiments also fails to show ammonia reduction.

I begin to wonder whether all products in this class claiming to remove ammonia from solution do not. And yes, I would not be surprised to find that scientist claiming otherwise are incorrect.

I agree with this to a degree - especially since nearly all of them say they must be re-dosed often, since they do not cause 'removal' of total ammonia.

 

[MnFish1]

^^^ which then brings up the question whether in a brightly lit aquarium like a reef tank and a cautious stocking rate, is ammonia like nitrite really not an issue in certain saltwater systems? An aquarium packed with fish, I think ammonia needs to be managed. An aquarium packed with coral, ammonia accumulation can be ignored. An aquarium packed with coral and a clean up crew, ditto. Ditto if a few small fish added AND coral are growing.

I think thats right - however, I do not agree that lighting has much to do with it (except that coral cannot live without it) - This may also be why @Lasse's method works fine. I do not agree that ammonia in a reef tank is not an issue - since the majority of people using ammonia testing in tanks is exactly at the 'danger point' where there aren't a lot of corals, etc - as compared to other times in a tanks life. Additionally, people with a FOWLR, would certainly be concerned with ammonia (at startup).

 

[MnFish1]

I want to setup an array of 5 gallon tanks and run the amphipod tests on some mollys. I just need everyone to chip in enough for about 10 seneye sensors. I promise not to spend it all on fancy lights and change my user name.

I believe Seneye was willing to provide Seneye's to use for experimentation - if the experimenters have a protocol. IMHO - it would be 'better' - if people wanting to do experiments asked the company for help/comments with design. Not necessarily letting them decide what to do - but rather - it's an easy way to get information about what they are thinking.

 

[MnFish1]

From that Fritz Ammonia reducer thread the other day, I wanted to follow up if we knew for sure that Prime was not the amquel compound, hydroxymethanesulfonate. The reason for asking is that the directions seem quite similar.

Does Fritz ammonia remover/detoxifier work?

I wanna know if it at all works or once that ammonia is detoxified will it be converted to nitrates?

www.reef2reef.com

I noted in the past (2007) in my ammonia article (for Marineland Biosafe) that there's a potential problem with some of these descriptions that either the name is wrong or the CAS number is wrong. The Fritz SDS:

https://fritzaquatics.com/assets/files/uploads/ACCR_Dry_SDS_050619.pdf

gives the name hydroxymethanesulfinite (inate) while the actual name of that CAS number is the structure hydroxymethanesulfonate (onate)

In any case, have we established that Seachem Prime cannot just be hydroxymethanusulfonate? (like some other ammonia products)

I think so.

 

[MnFish1]

Apology to the community - though I have followed this thread - when I looked today there were 30 unread messages - so I apologize for multiple responses

 

[Malcontent]

For those collecting anecdotes:

 

[Formulator]

Thank you Randy. Heroic efforts here.

So if it was determined that NH2SO3 is still measured as NH3 by ammonia-sensing films by seneye and seachem, then this mechanism for Prime would be viable, and it's the NH3 sensing films that are failing the job....

I just poked my nose into this whole discussion and I’m still skeptical. Basically this post in particular gets at the root of my skepticism. I’m not convinced that we are using the right methods to discern free ammonia from whatever complex is produced by the Prime reaction OR there is interference of some kind from the reaction products, and intermediates.

I’m still reading through the many pages of discussion here, but can someone give me the spoiler if there is one? Did anyone test your old hypothesis above?

 

[Dan_P]

I just poked my nose into this whole discussion and I’m still skeptical. Basically this post in particular gets at the root of my skepticism. I’m not convinced that we are using the right methods to discern free ammonia from whatever complex is produced by the Prime reaction OR there is interference of some kind from the reaction products, and intermediates.

I’m still reading through the many pages of discussion here, but can someone give me the spoiler if there is one? Did anyone test your old hypothesis above?

I recently had a peek at the latest work on this subject by @taricha. I will summarize it by saying that all will be explained I don’t recall seeing sulfamic acid playing a role in any product.

 

[Formulator]

I recently had a peek at the latest work on this subject by @taricha. I will summarize it by saying that all will be explained I don’t recall seeing sulfamic acid playing a role in any product.

Well I just ordered reagents and an ion-specific electrode to do my own investigation. Is this new work compelling enough to cancel those orders? When will it be shared?

 

[Dan_P]

Well I just ordered reagents and an ion-specific electrode to do my own investigation. Is this new work compelling enough to cancel those orders? When will it be shared?

I think the evidence is strong for what the products are, how they work and the extent to which they actually work. You would need to ask @taricha on timing of the report.

Cancelling the order because the data is strong? I guess it depends on how much fun it would be to confirm the current results, possibly discover something missed and add to the investigation, or refute some of the conclusions. Maybe PM @taricha for additional ideas on what loops need closing in the study.

 

[Malcontent]

Well I just ordered reagents and an ion-specific electrode to do my own investigation. Is this new work compelling enough to cancel those orders? When will it be shared?

All the ammonia ISE instructions I've seen involve the addition of a pH adjuster to raise pH and convert all ammonium to ammonia. In theory, you could skip the pH adjuster and test free/unbound-to-Prime ammonia but I'm not sure it'd actually work.