A Deep Dive on Ammonia Neutralizer Chemistry - Prime, ClorAm-X, Rongalite and friends.

[taricha]

For a while, I seriously considered only using "HCHO" in the entire write-up to avoid distractions.

 

[Malcontent]

Now how to reconcile this with the claim that Prime is solely dithionite...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now how to reconcile this with the claim that Prime is solely dithionite...

This is one of his pages where he builds the case for it being dithionite despite legal objections from Seachem that it is not:

5.5.3.2.3. Prime, Safe and Sodium Dithionite

Seachem Prime and Safe are only the chemical sodium dithionite.

aquariumscience.org

That said, the spectrum is not shown, nor how well the Raman matches nor if it might also be consistent with the materials suggested here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also from it:

Note that because the chemistry of Prime and Safe are “proprietary” the chemistry may well change over time depending on pricing and regulatory considerations. It does appear that there may have been the addition of formaldehyde to the latest versions of Prime and Safe. Formaldehyde stabilizes the dithionite by the formation of a compound called “Rongalite” or sodium hydroxymethanesulfinate via the following reaction.

Na2S2O4 + 2 CH2O + H2O → HO-CH2-SO3Na + HO-CH2-SO2Na

But Rongalite is odorless while sodium dithionite has a distinct acidic sulfurous sewage smell. Since the latest bottle of Prime I’ve received still has the sewage smell some two months after the bottle is opened there would appear that there is no formaldehyde in it. Note also that the addition of the formaldehyde does not change the fact that the compound is ONLY able to neutralize chlorine or chloramine.

 

[Formulator]

This is one of his pages where he builds the case for it being dithionite despite legal objections from Seachem that it is not:

5.5.3.2.3. Prime, Safe and Sodium Dithionite

Seachem Prime and Safe are only the chemical sodium dithionite.

aquariumscience.org

That said, the spectrum is not shown, nor how well the Raman matches nor if it might also be consistent with the materials suggested here.

I hate ramen for mixtures. Just not objective enough when there are overlapping spectrums. When its not a perfect match to the database, you are at the mercy of the interpreter.

 

[Formulator]

You guys really should publish this work. It would be nice to get NMR or LC-MS data as the final nail in the coffin to confirm the IDs. I might be able to help with that, but not for a couple months at least. We are shutting down a couple synthesis labs at work and once the instruments are no longer on active duty, I can probably run a few samples without raising any eyebrows.

 

[taricha]

For any wondering what Seachem's response would be, they actually already have these ingredients essentially covered under an FAQ.

FAQ: Is Seachem Prime® sulfinate- or sulfoxylate-based? It smells like sulfur, and the medication I am using says that it should not be used with these types of water conditioners.​

nothing exciting in there, it's mostly a "not going to say"

You guys really should publish this work.

Not opposed, but not sure what angle on this is of interest outside the reef hobby. "here's what's in one unlabeled product" doesn't sound publish-worthy to me.

 

[Dan_P]

Now how to reconcile this with the claim that Prime is solely dithionite...

There isn’t much (any) data presented. I can’t take the claim seriously, but I won’t reject it just yet.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

What a great thread. Keep it up!

 

[Dan_P]

Not opposed, but not sure what angle on this is of interest outside the reef hobby. "here's what's in one unlabeled product" doesn't sound publish-worthy to me.

You did not just discover an ingredient this time, but invalidated many products claiming to remove ammonia. You might want to stay anonymous a little longer. Doubt Seachem has gotten the bad news yet

 

[taricha]

"But Rongalite is odorless while sodium dithionite has a distinct acidic sulfurous sewage smell. Since the latest bottle of Prime I’ve received still has the sewage smell some two months after the bottle is opened there would appear that there is no formaldehyde in it."

If @Dan_P still has his bottle of aqueon ammonia neutralizer (rongalite) and Prime, he can give a second opinion to my nose that thinks after being opened a while, they smell the same.

Merck index has this on rongalite.
"Properties: Crystals, mp 63-64°, dec at higher temp. Odorless when freshly prepd, but quickly develops a characteristic (garlic) odor."

 

[Formulator]

Not opposed, but not sure what angle on this is of interest outside the reef hobby. "here's what's in one unlabeled product" doesn't sound publish-worthy to me.

You’re thinking too much like an academic. It would be a highly impactful industry white-paper calling on these vendors to be accountable for marketing products that don’t work as advertised.

 

[Formulator]

I’ll just leave this here for your consideration…

Aquatic Toxicology - Impact Factor: 4.2

Aquaculture Research - Impact Factor: 2.3

Journal of the World Aquaculture Society - Impact Factor: 1.9

Journal of Aquatic Animal Health - Impact Factor: 1.5

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ll just leave this here for your consideration…

Aquatic Toxicology - Impact Factor: 4.2

Aquaculture Research - Impact Factor: 2.3

Journal of the World Aquaculture Society - Impact Factor: 1.9

Journal of Aquatic Animal Health - Impact Factor: 1.5

Also remember Seachem was reportedly threatening the Aquarium Science guy above with legal action over this topic. Might not be worth it.

 

[Formulator]

Also remember Seachem was reportedly threatening the Aquarium Science guy above with legal action over this topic. Might not be worth it.

To me that makes it even more worthwhile. Their main rebuttal was basically that he was doing pseudoscience and had no data to substantiate his claims. Maybe I’m just being vindictive, but I’d like to stick it to them. Their only legal course is libel, which is moot with peer reviewed data to substantiate claims.

Edit: I’m not a lawyer. Don’t sue me if you get sued

 

[Formulator]

Also, I think they would have to sue the journal, which comes with a nice legal team I’m sure.

 

[Dan_P]

If @Dan_P still has his bottle of aqueon ammonia neutralizer (rongalite) and Prime, he can give a second opinion to my nose that thinks after being opened a while, they smell the same.

Merck index has this on rongalite.
"Properties: Crystals, mp 63-64°, dec at higher temp. Odorless when freshly prepd, but quickly develops a characteristic (garlic) odor."

I will check tomorrow.

 

[Dan_P]

If @Dan_P still has his bottle of aqueon ammonia neutralizer (rongalite) and Prime, he can give a second opinion to my nose that thinks after being opened a while, they smell the same.

Merck index has this on rongalite.
"Properties: Crystals, mp 63-64°, dec at higher temp. Odorless when freshly prepd, but quickly develops a characteristic (garlic) odor."

Here is my sniff report.

For both products, the aroma did seem that intense, snorting the head space was needed rather then wafting it towards my nose to get a good whiff.

Aqueon - dead snail aroma

Prime - rubber tire aroma with overtone of dead snail

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Aqueon - dead snail aroma

Prime - rubber tire aroma with overtone of dead snail

It's clear you have the needed talent for your next gig: a perfumer

 

[GlassMunky]

So if im understanding things, it seems like these products do little to nothing in reality when used in a saltwater tank as far as neutralizing ammonia.
Do they work properly in freshwater where there isn’t all the extra stuff (salts) in there?

Additionally I know this was about ammonia but do they do what they say and actually neutralize chlorine? (Like when doing a freshwater tank water change)
I mean if we can’t trust their claims on one thing can we trust their claims on another?