A Deep Dive on Ammonia Neutralizer Chemistry - Prime, ClorAm-X, Rongalite and friends.

[taricha]

What a boatload of work, taricha!

Thanks!
The lab work is like half @Dan_P as well as the chemistry figuring-out- what- the- heck- is- going- on part.

 

[Dave101]

I’m not going to argue with you about what you wrote or didn’t write as long as we agree that there’s no possibility that any additive to control ammonia in aquaria works by killing bacteria.

So you are saying embobbing fluids don't kill bacteria in the body??? Wow, really??? Weird, bc It DOES. that is why the decomposition SLOWS down. I though you had degrees in Science. If so then you need to look at embobbing fluids again. What I am saying is I am.Not sure if it is in Prime. Please STOP twisting my words. By you twisting my words and you have degrees are showing that it is true about Veterans have a DD214 is HIGHER than any college degree. The OTHER PERSON stated that Prime had embobbing fluids in it, let's get that CORRECT !!!!

 

[Dave101]

I’m not going to argue with you about what you wrote or didn’t write as long as we agree that there’s no possibility that any additive to control ammonia in aquaria works by killing bacteria.

Also I KNOW what I wrote. If you think you know what I wrote then you SHOULD HAVE NEVER WENT AFTER ME LIKE YOU DID!!!!!!!! Please LEARN HOW TO READ THE WORDS THAT I WROTE !!!!!!

 

[Dave101]

I’m not going to argue with you about what you wrote or didn’t write as long as we agree that there’s no possibility that any additive to control ammonia in aquaria works by killing bacteria.

You have good information but just because you have ALL this college degrees does not make you SMARTER than me.i NEVER GOT ALL THE COLLEGE DEGREES Like YOU, but I have proof medical doctors WRONG plenty of times WITHOUT medical school !!!!!!!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you are saying embobbing fluids don't kill bacteria in the body??? Wow, really??? Weird, bc It DOES. that is why the decomposition SLOWS down. I though you had degrees in Science. If so then you need to look at embobbing fluids again. What I am saying is I am.Not sure if it is in Prime. Please STOP twisting my words. By you twisting my words and you have degrees are showing that it is true about Veterans have a DD214 is HIGHER than any college degree. The OTHER PERSON stated that Prime had embobbing fluids in it, let's get that CORRECT !!!!

Sadly, you are entirely missing the point.

Assume Prime was 100% formaldehyde (impossible, since it is a gas, but anyway, assume it). I'm NOT saying you claimed this at all. It is an assumption that I (and I alone) am making for purpose to detail what would happen if it were.

The directions for Prime indicate to

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 US gallons) of new water.

So the concentration of Prime after adding it at the stated directions cannot be more than 5 grams per 200 L, or a concentration of less than 5 grams per 200 L (200,000 grams), or less than 0.0025%.

The amount of formaldehyde needed to kill bacteria in water is FAR, FAR higher than this. The formaldehyde in embalming fluid is 5-37%, and in disinfenctants, is typically above 1%.

Thus, any effect from Prime in an aquarium cannot come from formalehyde killing bacteria.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You have good information but just because you have ALL this college degrees does not make you SMARTER than me.i NEVER GOT ALL THE COLLEGE DEGREES Like YOU, but I have proof medical doctors WRONG plenty of times WITHOUT medical school !!!!!!!

I think it best if we just agree to let this go. I'm not saying you are not smart and you may well be smarter than I am.

I'm simply pointing out that the bacteria killing capacity of formaldehyde cannot be an explanation for how Prime works. If you agree with that we are golden.

if you do not, that's fine, but I think i demonstrated with actual data above that it cannot be.

 

[Dave101]

I think it best if we just agree to let this go. I'm not saying you are not smart and you may well be smarter than I am.

I'm simply pointing out that the bacteria killing capacity of formaldehyde cannot be an explanation for how Prime works. If you agree with that we are golden.

if you do not, that's fine, but I think i demonstrated with actual data above that it cannot be.

All I am saying is if it does have formaldehyde that it would kill the bacteria. Formaldehyde is used in dead bodies to stop decomposition. I personally don't think it is in PRIME like the individual stated it was in THIS POST. If you read my original post you would see that.

 

[Dave101]

l

Sadly, you are entirely missing the point.

Assume Prime was 100% formaldehyde (impossible, since it is a gas, but anyway, assume it). I'm NOT saying you claimed this at all. It is an assumption that I (and I alone) am making for purpose to detail what would happen if it were.

The directions for Prime indicate to

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 US gallons) of new water.

So the concentration of Prime after adding it at the stated directions cannot be more than 5 grams per 200 L, or a concentration of less than 5 grams per 200 L (200,000 grams), or less than 0.0025%.

The amount of formaldehyde needed to kill bacteria in water is FAR, FAR higher than this. The formaldehyde in embalming fluid is 5-37%, and in disinfenctants, is typically above 1%.

Thus, any effect from Prime in an aquarium cannot come from formalehyde killing bacteria.

lol. Sorry, I NEVER missed the point. I was saying was if it does it would kill the bacteria, ALL bacteria. Prime DOESNT do that. I know that bc I have used it in my freshwater tanks and had no issues like that. Also if it has a trace, it doesn't have to put it on the label, for example Roundup has a trace formaldehyde. They NEVER had it on the label till someone got CANCER. THIS IS FACT.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All I am saying is if it does have formaldehyde that it would kill the bacteria. Formaldehyde is used in dead bodies to stop decomposition. I personally don't think it is in PRIME like the individual stated it was in THIS POST. If you read my original post you would see that.

Your first sentence above is wrong for a reef application at the Seachem recommended dose. I showed that the AMOUNT of formaldehyde in it (no matter how concentrated it is) does not permit it to kill bacteria in a reef aquarium, despite the fact that in other situations where the concentrations are higher, it does.

Amounts matter just as much as the identity of the molecule.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, we have both said our thoughts and that discussion is over. I will not have taricha's thread derailed by an extraneous discussion where we both agree formaldehyde is not killing bacteria in reef tanks from use of Prime..

 

[Formulator]

All I am saying is if it does have formaldehyde that it would kill the bacteria. Formaldehyde is used in dead bodies to stop decomposition. I personally don't think it is in PRIME like the individual stated it was in THIS POST. If you read my original post you would see that.

Dude, calm down. Almost every substance is toxic. You can die from ingesting too much water. The massive amount of data and several scientists with backgrounds in chemistry have concluded that Prime contains a compound which dissociates into formaldehyde when added to water. The amount of formaldehyde is not enough to kill all the bacteria in the tank. Your personal feelings about this are irrelevant. You are wrong. End of story. This is science not politics (though I tend to doubt we would agree on politics either )

 

[taricha]

Also wondering about the half-life of formaldehyde in aquarium water. Maybe @taricha has that data.

I've got a paper on that, somewhere....

attached paper.

If you want formalin gone from your water fast, the only way is bacteria breaking it down. with a biofilter that had been exposed to it a bunch, it took theraputic levels to zero in 12 hours.

 

[Dan_P]

attached paper.

If you want formalin gone from your water fast, the only way is bacteria breaking it down. with a biofilter that had been exposed to it a bunch, it took theraputic levels to zero in 12 hours.

Thanks!

One gem recovered so far

However, ammonia probe mea- surements were not affected by 100 ppm formalin, indicating that ammonia and formaldehyde did not react under the con- ditions in the system.

 

[taricha]

Thanks!

One gem recovered so far

However, ammonia probe mea- surements were not affected by 100 ppm formalin, indicating that ammonia and formaldehyde did not react under the con- ditions in the system.

That's my favorite line in the paper too.

 

[Dave101]

Thanks!

One gem recovered so far

However, ammonia probe mea- surements were not affected by 100 ppm formalin, indicating that ammonia and formaldehyde did not react under the con- ditions in the system.

lol, WOW, I was NOT the one that said it. All of of soon experts on Funeral Homes are on aquariums???? Wow. lol

 

[Formulator]

lol, WOW, I was NOT the one that said it. All of of soon experts on Funeral Homes are on aquariums???? Wow. lol

I don’t even understand what you are trying to say. Go polish your gun or something and be sure to breathe out of your nose if you can…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

lol, WOW, I was NOT the one that said it. All of of soon experts on Funeral Homes are on aquariums???? Wow. lol

He's not even talking to you or referring to you or about you.

That said, we are not experts on funeral homes, , just experts on reading what is in embalming fluid and on knowing that concentrations of disinfectants determine whether they are effective or not.

Please stop now or you will be banned from this thread as I have asked you to stop derailing it.

 

[Dave101]

He's not even talking to you or referring to you.

That said, we are not experts on funeral homes, , just experts on reading what is in embalming fluid and on knowing that concentrations of disinfectants determine whether they are effective or not.

Please stop now or you will be banned from this thread as I have asked you to stop derailing it.

You said that formaldehyde is gas . Sorry, funeral homes use it. It is a LIQUID. YOU started ALL this crap with me. Also it came up as he commented my mine comment. So BLESS YOUR HEART AND HIS. 2 typically Liberials. Also go ahead banned me from One Minded Phd KNOW IT ALL. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You said that formaldehyde is gas . Sorry, funeral homes use it. It is a LIQUID.

Wrong, formaldehyde is a gas. Folks often use water solutions of it, just like ammonia (a gas) in water.

Discussion is over. You are banned from this thread.

 

[Formulator]

Wrong, formaldehyde is a gas. Folks often use water solutions of it, just like ammonia (a gas) in water.

Discussion is over. You are banned from this thread.

I just want to say you handled that impressively well. I would have lost it. I guess I sorta did… Anyways, well done. Back to science.