Ammonia is our Friend 2: Article Outline

[Koty]

So true!



Makes me wonder about systems that have a large fish population. They always seem to be very successful. Maybe this is due to the constant ammonia excretion, or the consistent natural fertilizer (N&P). With heavy fish bioloads, I wonder if ammonia dosing is necessary or doing more harm than good.

I don’t know. In most cases it certainly seems to promote cyano specifically. I’m pretty confident I can create a big cyano bloom on command if you hand me a bottle of AA’s, and give me a few weeks.

I have a large fish population and this may be the “secret” of success of my no WC tank.
The most extreme case of cyano I had was in my quarantine tank that had 0 phosphate and nitrate.

 

[Hans-Werner]

it will be formed in many aquaria but because it is easily oxidised - its normally no problems and you will not notice it.

Yes, that is what I say. At the sediment surface, autotrophic bacteria will oxidize it. It does not get into the free water.

 

[Lasse]

Yea - but what happens if your water in a certain area get low in O2 and the oxidation of H2S take the rest of the free O2? I prefer to be on the safe side - some NO3 in the water - problem smaller and I get o good night sleep. And always if you have sand beds - not touch them. I have also an oxidator going 24/7.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

autotrophic bacteria will oxidize it

No need of bacteria the oxygen will oxidise it by itself.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just going back to this:
Were you asking for evidence that nitrate reduces growth or whether ammonia promotes faster growth over nitrate
There are at least a few people that imply when switching from nitrate to ammonium dosing say they saw an increase in growth and colouration.
Dose Ammonia Instead of Nitrate? Dr. Sanjay Joshi & Mike Paletta
Was the swap equivalent? Would need to ask them!
Maybe semantics on whether to describe growth as a reduction with nitrate or increase using ammonia as there is no real baseline measurement.

That nitrate inhibits growth. I assumed you meant it literally inhibited growth regardless of whether it was the actual N source used, which would be very hard to determine in a reef tank. The fact that ammonia is better is not what I assumed you meant.

 

[merkmerk73]

So in summary, those API test kits that always show a little bit of Ammonia are now suddenly our preferred test kit if we're growing corals!

 

[Dom]

So in summary, those API test kits that always show a little bit of Ammonia are now suddenly our preferred test kit if we're growing corals!

I wouldn't think so. The reliability of the test hasn't changed.

 

[merkmerk73]

I wouldn't think so. The reliability of the test hasn't changed.

It's a joke because we tend to like the test kits that give us the readings we want to see

 

[Reefahholic]

What are your thoughts behind the last sentence?

If the ammonia excretion is already high and would totally fulfill the needs of the corals, it is not necessary to dose additional ammonium, this may be true.

What is the difference between dosing nitrate and dosing ammonium in this situation?

If dosing ammonium in an already ammonium saturated situation I would expect that nitrifiers and nitrification will catch up and you will end up with nitrate.

From a practitioners perspective, what is the disadvantage of dosing ammonium and would dosing nitrate being more advantageous?

At the moment I can't see the point.

It’s a little difficult to wrap my brain around as I don’t fully understand how each one plays with the other.

I know for sure that N dosing is very beneficial if the N is depleted, and I’ve ran into a few situations to where zero N did indeed kill corals and anemones, but also promotes cyano among other things. That said, I’m still unsure exactly what the optimal N level should be. It seems to work well at both high and low levels (2 ppm to 20 ppm). Most stick heads like it higher. I normally run 50-100:1, but 200:1 is fine also.

I like the idea of the fish excreting most of the ammonia, but let’s say there’s a situation where the biomass of the corals is large enough, and the bioload of the fish is not meeting demand, at that point I think it’s a great idea to supplement ammonia. It may be beneficial to supplement very small amounts during the day anyway. Not sure how much the corals want or really need.


I’m much more familiar with N dosing. I go all the way back to where nobody was dosing it at all, and reefers started to use “Stump Remover” from Lowe’s and Home Depot. When I discovered that my system was missing N…it was literally the first lightbulb moment in my reefing journey. I could now keep Acropora and Anemones that I was unable to keep prior when the systems were depleted and I didn’t realize it.

Going back to my first statement, I need to better understand how each ion (if they’re considered ions) works conjointly with the other. I like the idea that corals are able to take up ammonia with less effort, and prefer to use it first. As far as I understand, the ammonia does have some N available in it as well. @Randy Farley did a calculation (not sure how, but would like to dig into that) of how X ppm of ammonia has X ppm of nitrate or is equivalent to X ppm of nitrate.

If dosing ammonia as the primary source, it seems to me that N levels could then be decreased as the corals should be happier, as the assimilated ammonia was much easier to get.

I guess the question for me is if ammonia is preferred over nitrate, and it’s easier for the corals to uptake, then how much nitrate is needed after that? What is the key difference between ammonia and nitrate, and how does each play a role in coral growth and development when used together. Do we continue to dose nitrate when dosing ammonia? I think so only because I know when N is depleted things don’t do well. I’d assume if you’re dosing ammonia, and nitrate is becoming elevated, this would be an indicator of too much ammonia or the system is not doing well, and both would need to be slowed down or dosing stopped temporarily.

I want to also understand the balance between the two, and what the optimal ratio would be. Obviously it’s difficult to test ammonia levels at home unless anmmonia is elevated a little higher where we typically would not want it to be. Nitrate on the other hand is easy to test for. This is obviously a delicate dance that will take some trial and error to find the most optimal levels for both or find out how much is actually needed. They could both cause significant problems or algae growth among other undesirables if overdosed.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have a large fish population and this may be the “secret” of success of my no WC tank.
The most extreme case of cyano I had was in my quarantine tank that had 0 phosphate and nitrate.

Old pic…but you can see the nutrient levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. As far as I understand, the ammonia does have some N available in it as well. @Randy Farley did a calculation (not sure how, but would like to dig into that) of how X ppm of ammonia has X ppm of nitrate or is equivalent to X ppm of nitrate.

1 ppm of ammonia has the same nitrogen as 3.6 ppm of nitrate.

That does not mean, however, that the concentrations that should be in the water for optimal use have any relationship to that number.

 

[xtianGEO]

Since this article and what exactly gets incorporated into it is still evolving, I thought I'd open it up for discussion of things I should include that are not mentioned or things that I mention that should not be included.

There will be lots of standard ammonia science stuff as well, such as ammonia in the ocean, free vs total ammonia, testing methods and complexities, etc.

Here's the start of the article:

Ammonia is Our Friend

By Randy Holmes-Farley​

Yes, I know the title is provocative, and likely goes against much of what you read and hear in the reef aquarium hobby. I believe, however, that the hobby may have been harmed by the continual vilification of ammonia as something that one wants to reduce as much as possible. Products and procedures to keep driving it down may well be detrimental in many reef tanks.

This bulleted summary contains the points that I make in detail in the subsequent sections of this article along with some basic science about ammonia. They are presented in a logical order of progression, but if you already know you agree with certain points, it may not be needed to read those sections to get a complete story.

1. While ammonia is toxic at very high levels, the levels needed to be lethal to a marine fish are higher than many people think. I’ve not seen any study in the literature that shows an LC50 (half of fish die) in less than 15 ppm total ammonia in seawater over 4 days or more of exposure at normal pH.

2. Sublethal toxic effects of ammonia, such as gill lesions observed by histopathology, do not seem to become significant until levels reach 5-10 ppm total ammonia at pH 8.1.

3. The toxicity of ammonia is a function of pH. At pH 8.5, toxic effects kick in at ammonia levels 2.5x lower than at pH 8.1. Likewise, at pH 7.8, it takes twice as much ammonia to be toxic as at pH 8.1. In a situation where ammonia might well reach toxic levels, such as a shipping bag, raising pH in the bag should not be a goal.

4. Toxic levels of ammonia are just not reached in typical operating reef aquaria. Seeing a measured value of 0.25 ppm, whether real or test error, is not a concern. It may be a benefit.

5. Chemical methods to control or detoxify ammonia in marine systems at doses recommended are generally ineffective at impacting ammonia, despite folks thinking they were effective. If you believe that 2 ppm ammonia will kill a fish, and you add an ammonia detoxifier and it survives, you may falsely conclude it worked, as opposed to you misunderstood how toxic ammonia was.

6. Corals demonstrate a preference for obtaining the N (nitrogen) they need from ammonia over nitrate when both are available. Organisms using nitrate as an N source need to spend extra energy to convert the nitrate to ammonia before use.

7. Continually driving ammonia down in a reef tank may be making it unnecessarily difficult for corals to easily obtain the nitrogen they need. Actions such as providing media designed for nitrifiers or adding nitrifying bacteria on a regular basis may thus be doing more harm than good.

8. Reef aquaria where N is in short supply may benefit from dosing ammonia, and that benefit may be greater than dosing nitrate. Ammonium bicarbonate is a good source of ammonia as it is inexpensive and readily available in food grade purity.

9. While measuring a detectable level of nitrate in a reef aquarium can be very useful to ensure there is some source of N available for corals, one should not assume that corals are primarily using that source since there are other sources that they may prefer to use.

10. “Cycling” a new reef tank with nitrifying bacteria is just one way to start a tank, and reefers should not simply accept the idea that it is the only way. It may be a fast way to add fish, but perhaps reefers should at least be aware of other options. There will be no stopping nitrifying bacteria from naturally growing in any reef system, but a system where consumption of N is the focus (corals, macroalgae, anemones etc.) as opposed to producers (fish and anything else fed outside food) may not require the addition of bacteria or the time spent waiting for them to develop.

​

Thanks @Randy Holmes-Farley ! Take it for what is worth but your briefs have impacted my purchasing trends. Thank you for your dedication to the hobby

 

[mikst]

Thanks to all contributing that have a greater depth and breadth of knowledge in this area. I had been following the first thread as best I could and I came in here to ask a specific question. Low and behold, you are addressing it in number 7. My question was going to be are you saying it's OK to not have nitrifying bacteria or that it is inadvisable to because they would take away the ammonia source for your corals. It sounds like you are leaning towards the latter. I'm very comfortable with points 1 thru 6 based on my fresh water experience and reading. 7 I have a hard time with because of my fw experience.
Free floating ammonia, nitrate, nitrite is all considered 'inorganic' right? What's to say that carbon dosing to convert that inorganic into organic so the corals can feed on phyto or copepods or bacteria as it floats by isn't a better way to deal with the ammonia?

 

[Reefahholic]

1 ppm of ammonia has the same nitrogen as 3.6 ppm of nitrate.

That does not mean, however, that the concentrations that should be in the water for optimal use have any relationship to that number.

So ammonia has both ammonia and nitrogen. Sounds like a miracle ion for Acro’s. 1 to 3.6 is a decent ratio too.

I mean it could have had a sky high nitrate value at 1 ppm. I’m glad it’s lower instead of 30 ppm or something. Makes it easier to dose.

Will be testing on this new temporary tank. Can’t wait to see what I learn.

How do you calculate the 3.6 nitrate value from the molecular weight?

 

[FranklinDattein]

Hi @Randy Holmes-Farley ,

in addition to your points, here are some others that I would like to see in an subsequent article:

1. Ammonia vs urea v amino acids. Why not urea or other forms of Nitrogen like amino acids?
2. Links to the scientific literature that point to corals having a preference for ammonia over nitrate, extra energy consumed to process ammonia, redox effect, etc.
3. Should one expect ammonia to be detectable? Why not?
4. Similarly, should one expect it to eventually accumulate into detectable Nitrate?
5. Would ammonia dosing be detrimental to tanks with elevate levels of Nitrate?
6. Formula (or calculator) for folksmigrating from Nitrate dosing to ammonia dosing. (shameless plug)
7. Means of automating ammonia dosing. e.g Mixing with ATO freshwater or adding ammonium bicarbonate to the Alkalinity bottle in a 2/3 part system.
8. Amounts of ammonia people have been reporting to be dosing.
For example, in this chat with Keith, Mike mentions that Sanjay went from dosing 50ml/day to 200ml/day of a solution of ammonium bicarbonate. No concentration is mentione in the first chat, but in this other chat they mentioned the concentration of the solution at 10g / liter. This equates to 0.23 ppm of ammonia which is equivalent to 0.83ppm of Nitrate.
I have been dosing more than twice that amount at 0.55ppm / day for over 4 months now.

9. What benefits people have reported?
On the aforementioned videos, Mike suggests that him, Sanjay and another ~30 of their acquaintaces reported an increase of alk consumption (measure of coral growth) of up to 30%, with only two people reporting no noticeable changes.
I am one of those that didn't notice any chances in Alk consumption (I run an alk monitor), which makes me skeptical of such claims.

Looking forward to the next article.

 

[FranklinDattein]

edit. double posted.

 

[Reefahholic]

For example, in this chat with Keith, Mike mentions that Sanjay went from dosing 50ml/day to 200ml/day of a solution of ammonium bicarbonate.

I thought Sanjay said on a different livestream that he was dosing ammonium hydroxide.

 

[FranklinDattein]

I thought Sanjay said on a different livestream that he was dosing ammonium hydroxide.

He did, but in this last episode they said ammonium bicarbonate.

 

[Hans-Werner]

My questions and answers are just straightforward, no traps or the like. Some things stated are just not logic or simply impossible if you know the biochemistry behind them, i. e. that nitrate concentrations higher than 2 or 2.5 ppm have any additional benefit. There is hardly any additional uptak at concentrations higher than 1 ppm. Its the biochemistry. When uptake systems are saturated by certain concentrations they are saturated, no additional uptake how high you will ever go. You can read it from uptake curves.

I ask because I want to get out what is really goind on. I don't exclude that the effects you see are real but the explanation may be wrong.

I know for sure that N dosing is very beneficial if the N is depleted, and I’ve ran into a few situations to where zero N did indeed kill corals and anemones, but also promotes cyano among other things. That said, I’m still unsure exactly what the optimal N level should be. It seems to work well at both high and low levels (2 ppm to 20 ppm). Most stick heads like it higher. I normally run 50-100:1, but 200:1 is fine also.

I have tried a lot of things, urea, nitrate, ammonium, amino acids. Nitrate was the worst. Nitrate is the only compound with which I saw Montipora plates bleach and die, like switch on, switch off. The alternative at this time maybe 25 years ago was urea. Changing from urea to nitrate - bleaching and necrosis, changing back stopped it at equimolar N supply and simultaneaous P supply.

Maybe 10 years ago I have finished the experiments with nitrogen supply and concentrated on phosphate and didn't care about nitrogen at all. Nothing bad did happen, quite the opposite, systems are more stable than ever and not a single case of brown jelly. I just would like to get out why you think you need N dosing.

 

[Lasse]

stopped it at equimolar N supply and simultaneaous P supply

What was your PO4 in mg/L at that time? Below 0.03 mg/L?

Sincerely Lasse