Ammonia is our Friend: thoughts needed

[SDchris]

I suspect our comfort levels realigns for aquaculture system.

For high density grow out and wholesale/retail systems I would agree. For broodstock ornamental system, glass and pipework was adequate for me.

 

[Hans-Werner]

The nitrate story is unclear, but a great many corals thrive in the presence of 100 ppm nitrate. Whether that is any concern may depend on whether corals need to use nitrate, or have plenty of ammonium and other preferred sources of N.

Here it is more a biological/chemical/ecological/ energy conservation fact that the NH3/NH4 probably will be used first - not a conscious choice from the coral. As I understand it - a coral can´t know that NH3/NH4 is more economical and easier to transport than NO3

I have read a book about ecological physiology of algae maybe 30 years ago. Since then I wondered nearly all the time that the algae people know so much more about their objects than the coral people. For me it was quite clear that zooxanthellate corals come close to a microalgal culture, at least in the autotrophic part of their metabolism.
About "preference":
1) Go back to the graphs about nutrient uptake in Stylophora. Nitrate uptake is saturated somewhere, maybe around 1 ppm. Higher concentrations don't matter. Corals will not take up more than at saturation concentration, no matter whether 10 or 100 ppm.
2) The curve of NH4+ uptake is very steep which means corals in this respect will have a preference for ammonium at low concentrations of available N compounds.
3) The curve of ammonium uptake shows it is not a passive uptake of an uncharged compound diffusing through the cell membanes but an active uptake by ion pumps which shows typical Michaelis-Menten-kinetics. Also subsequent processing is enzymatic.
4) Ammonium really is preferred over nitrate since in most microalgae if ammonium is in sufficient supply they will not express nitrate reductase. No nitrate reductase, no nitrate assimilation (processing). This means, sufficient ammonium supply will really switch off nitrate processing and nitrate uptake.

These are hard scientific facts. It makes no sense to ignore them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Earlier in the thread, didn’t Randy talk about tenths, maybe as high as 0.5 ppm? Amino acids can cause the test to read high, though I don’t recall at what concentration.

To be clear, I don’t know what levels are optimal. I expect it varies based on the organisms present, maybe pH, and perhaps other factors such as availability of other needed nutrients and trace elements.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Lasse, I believe you will appreciate this question. If we maintained an ammonia concentration in our aquarium would that also maintain a nitrite concentration as well? We would have to completely remove the nitrifiers and ensure that our ammonia is only getting absorbed by the corals in order to safely maintain our nitrite levels. After all 1ppm of ammonia gets converted into a bunch more nitrite right? And if we don’t have nitrifiers because we’ve worked to eliminate them then are we now in trouble because we have rising ammonia and nitrites and we ran out of money for more corals now?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Lasse, I believe you will appreciate this question. If we maintained an ammonia concentration in our aquarium would that also maintain a nitrite concentration as well? We would have to completely remove the nitrifiers and ensure that our ammonia is only getting absorbed by the corals in order to safely maintain our nitrite levels. After all 1ppm of ammonia gets converted into a bunch more nitrite right? And if we don’t have nitrifiers because we’ve worked to eliminate them then are we now in trouble because we have rising ammonia and nitrites and we ran out of money for more corals now?

Almost all negative:
1) Yes, in fact some reef aquaria have a significant nitrite concentration, especially when reducing nitrate by denitrification.
2) You don't have to remove the nitrifiers. At typical reef aquarium levels you don't have much bacterial nitrifiers, ammonium oxidation is mainly done by archaea. The next step, the nitrite oxidation, is done by bacteria and is frequentely slowly and likely takes place at higher concentrations due to high chloride concentration in saltwater.
3) 1 mol of ammonium is oxidized to 1 mol of nitrite which means 18 ppm ammonium is oxidized to 46 ppm nitrite. However this doesn't cause any trouble since nitrite is much less toxic in saltwater than in freshwater, again due to high chloride concentration in saltwater. It is also much less toxic than ammonia/ammonium in saltwater at typical reef tank pH and temperature.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Almost all negative:
1) Yes, in fact some reef aquaria have a significant nitrite concentration, especially when reducing nitrate by denitrification.
2) You don't have to remove the nitrifiers. At typical reef aquarium levels you don't have much bacterial nitrifiers, ammonium oxidation is mainly done by archaea. The next step, the nitrite oxidation, is done by bacteria and is frequentely slowly and likely takes place at higher concentrations due to high chloride concentration in saltwater.
3) 1 mol of ammonium is oxidized to 1 mol of nitrite which means 18 ppm ammonium is oxidized to 46 ppm nitrite. However this doesn't cause any trouble since nitrite is much less toxic in saltwater than in freshwater, again due to high chloride concentration in saltwater. It is also much less toxic than ammonia/ammonium in saltwater at typical reef tank pH and temperature.

I see it mentioned often that nitrite is much less toxic in saltwater, just curious what is the source for that claim? I see studies saying it’s toxic around 1 to 2 ppm and if you combine that with stress from other water stressors could be a significant impact to your fish. Is this incorrect?

 

[tbaum101]

I'm thinking of wring an article on how ammonia has been wrongfully vilified in our hobby, with plenty of ammonia science and literature data, experiences of folks dosing it, etc.

One possible part of it relates to the whole idea that one could start a reef tank without intentionally cycling nitrifiers. No bacteria additives, not sponges or whatever. Live rock is fine, but the goal of it is to have surfaces resistant to algae, not to add bacteria.

For example, starting with plenty of macroalgae, soft corals, and coralline right from day or week one. No fish, or perhaps only an algae eating fish , etc.

The simplistic idea is to have as much or more ammonia uptake capacity than is added from organism feeding. Seems inherently logical, but I'm not certain if there are hidden issues.

This thread is a pre-article idea generating thread to flesh out ideas and problems before writing the article.

All thoughts and ideas are welcome, especially if you do not agree with the premise or believe the concept will fail.

That's how we cycled tanks in the 90's. You just bought fish that were tough. Damsels were the fish of choice. Ad water and salt and then the live rock (which was so much better back then). The water quality never got awful. There were no bottles of bacteria. That's what I did when I came back from my 30 year hiatus. Only difference was I added clowns and copopods as well.

 

[GARRIGA]

Were corals removing ammonium then no nitrite would exist. Nothing being converted by nitrification since coral have consumed the ammonium. Confirmed this using FW plants and see no reason why this mechanism wouldn't occur with corals. Specifically zooxanthellae which would be what is actually consuming the ammonium and not the coral itself. Just to be clear because some might think the corals themselves are benefiting from the ammonium which to me wouldn't make sense. I could be wrong.

Plus wouldn't zooxanthellae also consume what little nitrites or nitrates were produced? That's how it works in the plant kingdom and the theory behind why we must see nitrates to confirm N exists. Seems a system properly dialed in for amount of ammonium needed to feed the coral only inhabitants would be deprived of all ammonia/ammonium, nitrites and nitrates and possibly phosphates, too. Key being no area for nitrification to overpower the corals.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Were corals removing ammonium then no nitrite would exist. Nothing being converted by nitrification since coral have consumed the ammonium. Confirmed this using FW plants and see no reason why this mechanism wouldn't occur with corals. Specifically zooxanthellae which would be what is actually consuming the ammonium and not the coral itself. Just to be clear because some might think the corals themselves are benefiting from the ammonium which to me wouldn't make sense. I could be wrong.

Plus wouldn't zooxanthellae also consume what little nitrites or nitrates were produced? That's how it works in the plant kingdom and the theory behind why wee must see nitrates to confirm N exists. Seems a system properly dialed in for amount of ammonium needed to feed the coral only inhabitants would be deprived of all ammonia/ammonium, nitrites and nitrates and possibly phosphates, too. Key being no area for nitrification to overpower the corals.

Yes I agree with everything, however I just can’t wrap my head around not having what I now understand as ammonia oxidizing archae and nitrite oxidizing bacteria not in an aquarium. Sounds like an impossible task the more I learn about these things. It’s impossible to feed your coral zooxanthelle the exact right amount of ammonium they need without overdoing it or undergoing it imo. Therefore the aoa and nob need to pick up the slack and you won’t remove them anyway and I now start to see what the futility in dosing bacteria’s may be.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Yes I agree with everything, however I just can’t wrap my head around not having what I now understand as ammonia oxidizing archae and nitrite oxidizing bacteria not in an aquarium. Sounds like an impossible task the more I learn about these things. It’s impossible to feed your coral zooxanthelle the exact right amount of ammonium they need without overdoing it or undergoing it imo. Therefore the aoa and nob need to pick up the slack and you won’t remove them anyway and I now start to see what the futility in dosing bacteria’s may be.

It is not that difficult. If you are dosing too much ammonium, algae will start to grow. If ammonium is low for corals, coral colors will brighten up. With sufficient ammonium, coral colors will be "deep" and dark. I prefer the brighter version and don't dose any N except feeding a few fish.

 

[GARRIGA]

Yes I agree with everything, however I just can’t wrap my head around not having what I now understand as ammonia oxidizing archae and nitrite oxidizing bacteria not in an aquarium. Sounds like an impossible task the more I learn about these things. It’s impossible to feed your coral zooxanthelle the exact right amount of ammonium they need without overdoing it or undergoing it imo. Therefore the aoa and nob need to pick up the slack and you won’t remove them anyway and I now start to see what the futility in dosing bacteria’s may be.

I've stated previously that only way to ensure corals get first shot at ammonium would be to limit surface area for bacteria where ammonium is first accessed. Impossible to avoid nitrification since bacteria can populate glass and fish and frag plugs including corals themselves. Key is reducing that and I've also stated best to have nitrification because plants can fail. Especially once fish added assuming that bio-load exceeds the carrying capacity of the corals.

However, doesn't change the fact one could start day one with corals and even include a few fish without any external filtration such as skimmer or live rocks or other biological media. Determining how many fish can be added likely beyond the grasp of most of us and especially me yet see no reason one can't just add corals plus ammonium plus phosphates and maintain proper levels of major elements and trace with something as simple as water changes. Still need to account for minimizing unwanted algae as I think those will quickly out-compete the corals and absent fish going to need lots of elbow grease or at a minimum a large CUC. This is all obviously theory until one tests and proves it although Jake Adams did a series on exactly this although might have used a skimmer. Which doesn't remove ammonium therefore perhaps that's an example of this already proven without the math and tests.

 

[GARRIGA]

It is not that difficult. If you are dosing too much ammonium, algae will start to grow. If ammonium is low for corals, coral colors will brighten up. With sufficient ammonium, coral colors will be "deep" and dark. I prefer the brighter version and don't dose any N except feeding a few fish.

Isn't that a tight rope to walk considering systems low on nutrients still grow algae and might be cause iron is high or other favorable to algae available?

 

[Pod_01]

It is not that difficult. If you are dosing too much ammonium, algae will start to grow. If ammonium is low for corals, coral colors will brighten up. With sufficient ammonium, coral colors will be "deep" and dark. I prefer the brighter version and don't dose any N except feeding a few fish.

Good day Hans, would you have a picture that shows what you mean by “brighten up coral” vs. “deep colour “? If you have pictures handy.
Sometimes pictures convey the idea better vs description.
For me brighten up is almost dead or on its last leg acro etc…

 

[twentyleagues]

Good day Hans, would you have a picture that shows what you mean by “brighten up coral” vs. “deep colour “? If you have pictures handy.
Sometimes pictures convey the idea better vs description.
For me brighten up is almost dead or on its last leg acro etc…

I dont have any pics and I am not Hans. This was a sought after thing when the ulns culture kicked in, lite "pastel" color acros. Previously, me running very high nutrients had take for example my red planet colony deep dark red and green. I was told about a year into the ulns craze that it should be lime green and more pink than dark almost burgandy red. Dropping nutrients and adopting a ulns type system did just that after 2-3 years of hard work and revamping my entire system. I actually ended cutting back on the nutrient cutting because I found I liked the darker color corals better for the most part some things like say the original pearl berry acros look better under lower nutrients.

 

[Dburr1014]

Good day Hans, would you have a picture that shows what you mean by “brighten up coral” vs. “deep colour “? If you have pictures handy.
Sometimes pictures convey the idea better vs description.
For me brighten up is almost dead or on its last leg acro etc…

I dont have any pics and I am not Hans. This was a sought after thing when the ulns culture kicked in, lite "pastel" color acros. Previously, me running very high nutrients had take for example my red planet colony deep dark red and green. I was told about a year into the ulns craze that it should be lime green and more pink than dark almost burgandy red. Dropping nutrients and adopting a ulns type system did just that after 2-3 years of hard work and revamping my entire system. I actually ended cutting back on the nutrient cutting because I found I liked the darker color corals better for the most part some things like say the original pearl berry acros look better under lower nutrients.

Not the best before/after pic. My red planet.
One is very light no3 zero/po4 0.13
Darker is more like no3 4ppm/po4 0.2ish



I'll search for a better before pic and can always take one when I get home today. It's very pastel right now with lots of growth tips.

Edit;
A pic from December 29 2022.
If my memory serves me right I was dosing nitrates at this time but I can't tell you what the PPM was. My po4 was running 0.1 at that time.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Isn't that a tight rope to walk considering systems low on nutrients still grow algae and might be cause iron is high or other favorable to algae available?

I doubt that "systems low on nutrients" grow algae. Allone if I am reading such a general statement I know "everything". For me it is simple and I have no contradictory experience: Phosphate doesn't grow algae, N and iron grow algae. If phosphate is low, algae do grow. If N ist low, algae don't grow. In my experience this is reproducible. It is a matter of concentrations ratios and balance.

The most simple recommendation from my side is: Keep phosphate around 0.1 ppm and ignore N.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Good day Hans, would you have a picture that shows what you mean by “brighten up coral” vs. “deep colour “? If you have pictures handy.
Sometimes pictures convey the idea better vs description.
For me brighten up is almost dead or on its last leg acro etc…

I have posted pictures of corals somewhere but basically the difference can be desribed easily:

golden brown vs. chocolate brown or darker from the color of tissue/zooxanthellae. In combination a Stylophora "Milka" may look more pink vs. purple/deep brown, some Acropora may look more fluorescent yellow vs. fluorescent green, i. e. the "green slimer" if someone still knows this.

Of course it is also a matter of light what the color will be in the end. So pictures also don't help much more than my words.

 

[Pod_01]

I have posted pictures of corals somewhere but basically the difference can be desribed easily:

golden brown vs. chocolate brown or darker from the color of tissue/zooxanthellae. In combination a Stylophora "Milka" may look more pink vs. purple/deep brown, some Acropora may look more fluorescent yellow vs. fluorescent green, i. e. the "green slimer" if someone still knows this.

Of course it is also a matter of light what the color will be in the end. So pictures also don't help much more than my words.

hmmm… colour… so for example this:

The Blueberry wine acro, is that too dark or too bright?

Or this acro:

I personally like the colour but when I took those pictures I was not sure if it was too dark, or just right. At the time my NO3 was below 1 ppm…

Since those pictures I had major crash and I done few experiments and I am just not able to get same growth or colour:

For example the blueberry acro the purple is now gone….
This hobby can drive one bananas…

Anyway interesting subject and thank you all for sharing.

 

[GARRIGA]

I doubt that "systems low on nutrients" grow algae. Allone if I am reading such a general statement I know "everything". For me it is simple and I have no contradictory experience: Phosphate doesn't grow algae, N and iron grow algae. If phosphate is low, algae do grow. If N ist low, algae don't grow. In my experience this is reproducible. It is a matter of concentrations ratios and balance.

The most simple recommendation from my side is: Keep phosphate around 0.1 ppm and ignore N.

I've bottomed out nitrates but not phosphates and seen algae although no corals were present. Tank was heavily fed testing decomposition including denitrification and/or carbon dosing to effect zero nitrates.

Didn't add iron and performed no water changes therefore only elements added through food including phosphates. Later when I was promoting algae I did add iron and that made my Fuge/ATS blossom.

I've heard from others where bottoming out nitrates still allowed algae to grow. Could just be the algae was contributing to why nitrates were low because it was part of that consuming nitrates. Don't know because I had no way of separating the variables that contribute to nitrate removal to isolate what was causing it and just generalized all components in play.

 

[twentyleagues]

Not the best before/after pic. My red planet.
One is very light no3 zero/po4 0.13
Darker is more like no3 4ppm/po4 0.2ish



I'll search for a better before pic and can always take one when I get home today. It's very pastel right now with lots of growth tips.

Edit;
A pic from December 29 2022.
If my memory serves me right I was dosing nitrates at this time but I can't tell you what the PPM was. My po4 was running 0.1 at that time.

That looks like the red planets that I see today not the red planets from back in the early 2000. I have mulled this over in my head for over an hour on how to reply without sounding negative or insulting. I am not saying anything bad and this is what I have seen since my return called a red planet. The red plant from back then had a very green base pink/red growth and red polyps. Low nutrients usually turned it pink and very light green to white on the base. I was very high nutrient and then after years I got to what I considered low nutrient n less than 10 and p below .1. Over all lightening of sps and much less inflation of lps some zoa colonies just melted. Allowing nutrients to range between 15-30n and .1-.2 p got things into a good over all area in my system. Maybe had I known about ammonia dosing I could have kept ulns and everything happy?