Ammonia is our Friend 2: Article Outline

[Hans-Werner]

What was your PO4 in mg/L at that time? Below 0.03 mg/L?

Sincerely Lasse

Hard to say since there have been hardly any good PO4 tests at that time. I also have no records from my time in the museum.

The PO4 supply was continuous. I guess the PO4 concentrations were nevertheless low or very low. Nitrate interferes with phosphate and has its most negative effects at very low phosphate concentrations.

 

[Lasse]

Nitrate interferes with phosphate and has its most negative effects at very low phosphate concentrations.

Yes that´s also my understanding.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks to all contributing that have a greater depth and breadth of knowledge in this area. I had been following the first thread as best I could and I came in here to ask a specific question. Low and behold, you are addressing it in number 7. My question was going to be are you saying it's OK to not have nitrifying bacteria or that it is inadvisable to because they would take away the ammonia source for your corals. It sounds like you are leaning towards the latter. I'm very comfortable with points 1 thru 6 based on my fresh water experience and reading. 7 I have a hard time with because of my fw experience.
Free floating ammonia, nitrate, nitrite is all considered 'inorganic' right? What's to say that carbon dosing to convert that inorganic into organic so the corals can feed on phyto or copepods or bacteria as it floats by isn't a better way to deal with the ammonia?

You can’t avoid nitrifiers, but I encourage folks to not promote them just because a company has a product to do so.

It is certainly possible that whole bacteria from carbon dosing are very useful to corals and I do promote carbon dosing in many situations. Those bacteria are not the nitrifying bacteria I am referring to.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, it can. Dissolved and particulate organics often contain phosphate as well. Thus, one must be very careful in extrapolating one reef tank thriving at undetectable nitrate and phosphate to any other tank that may have different levels of these other sources.

This feels like an extremely important point that needs to be built on and somewhat goes hand-in-hand with the competition in uptake between the coral, algae, micro fauna, etc. I don't think our general testing methodology can account for this.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have tried a lot of things, urea, nitrate, ammonium, amino acids. Nitrate was the worst. Nitrate is the only compound with which I saw Montipora plates bleach and die, like switch on, switch off.

I think a lot of people dose a little too potent at first, and it ruins their experience with nitrate dosing. I overdosed stump remover years ago which browned all my corals. After that I figured out a good stock solution and started dosing about 0.25-0.5 ppm daily. That produced very good results. Now I usually dose about 1ppm daily when needed, and that is spread out with very small doses usually about 50-100x a day.

I just would like to get out why you think you need N dosing.

I had Acro’s that never did well for the longest time. They would just not color up and eventually die. Same with anemones like Magnifica and Gigantea. One day when I realized nitrate was zero, I dose a small amount into the system. My completely deflated anemone became fully inflated and got sucked into a wave maker. At that moment it was like a light bulb came on. I realized they had been missing nitrate all along, and it was very much needed. My acro's also colored up and quit dying after bringing the level up.

concentrations higher than 2 or 2.5 ppm have any additional benefit. There is hardly any additional uptak at concentrations higher than 1 ppm. Its the biochemistry.

This may be true, but I know Acro’s get thicker tissue at higher N concentrations and better color in many cases. They definitely seem to be more robust at 10-15 ppm vs 2-3 ppm. I also don’t like the ratio below 50:1, because my tank gets dirty and becomes more prone to algae.

If I’m at 0.15 P…I like to be at 10-15 N.

A 14:1 never has produced good results in my systems. The rocks get dirtier, and the system is overall dirtier especially in a younger system. I see better results running at 50:1-100:1. Do the corals need higher N? Are they up-taking It? Maybe not. I think they’d do ok at 2-3 ppm. I’ve keep lower level N many times, but If the tissue is thicker, colors are better/darker, and coral more robust at higher N level, it would seem they are up-taking something additional after 1ppm. You won’t find many hardcore acro guys who keep nitrate in the 1-2ppm range. Only a few. Almost every really nice acro tank I’ve seen keeps N over 10 ppm. Many keep 15-20+, but others are 200:1, and things still looking really good. So even if the data suggests otherwise, it doesn’t seem to be hindering the corals from what I can tell.

For example…go look at Jason Brown’s tank on instagram

(unorthodox_reef). https://www.instagram.com/unorthodox_reef?igsh=MTBqNmhqc29ocHljbw==

His corals look great, and tank is thriving at 0.2-0.3 P and higher nitrates.

It’s really hard to say, because corals adapt. One thing I‘ve noticed is when tanks get up 40-60 ppm nitrates it starts to distort the tissue on some acros. I can see it from tank to tank, and pretty much guess their N value.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think a lot of people dose a little too potent at first, and it ruins their experience with nitrate dosing.

Much of the issue is a combination of poor understanding by both new reef keepers and those advising them. This decade's prevailing advice to new tank owners right out of the gate is "you must dose N and P". So before their rock is even wet they are buying dosing products and concentrating on raising N and P from the moment they fill the tank. Add the bottle bacteria and the rest of the "new" shortcuts and "avoid the uglies" products and these folks are making witches brew, not a coral reef.

I like the idea of this article as a means to counter some of the "new" ways by resetting thinking.

 

[mikst]

You can’t avoid nitrifiers, but I encourage folks to not promote them just because a company has a product to do so.

It is certainly possible that whole bacteria from carbon dosing are very useful to corals and I do promote carbon dosing in many situations. Those bacteria are not the nitrifying bacteria I am referring to.

I get it, I am not a buy it in a bottle kind of guy. I was when I first started in FW because that's what I was told. Then I out my critical thinking cap on. Now I either use cycled media to Kickstart new tanks or I just let them take their sweet time. When I hear advice, particularly from a company, I question where the money is.

I apologize if I accidentally inferred that nitrifying bacteria and bacteria resulting from carbon dosing were one in the same. I am aware they are wholly different. Nitrifiers tend to cling to surfaces and build up biofilm/bio floc. Heterotrophic bacteria (like those generated with carbon dosing) are hungry little free floating buggers, to my understanding.

In FW, massive filtration area is king for water clarity because it gives huge surface area for nitrifying bacteria to make purchase on in order to out compete the heterotrophic bacteria working on DOCs floating in the water. I run "over filtration" in all my fw tanks to that end and have crystal clear water at all times.

I will continue learning and reading and working on both water clarity and typing clarity.

 

[M4sonic]

You can’t avoid nitrifiers, but I encourage folks to not promote them just because a company has a product to do so.

It is certainly possible that whole bacteria from carbon dosing are very useful to corals and I do promote carbon dosing in many situations. Those bacteria are not the nitrifying bacteria I am referring to.

Ok so i have small tangential question regarding this.

i currently have a bunch of rubble cycling in a tub for when my tank gets installed that i seeded with some live rock from a lfs.

I bought the aquaforest bio sand and it came with bottles of bacteria and bacteria "food" to make it live sand by adding it to a bucket with salt water for a couple days.

Would you suggest forgoing the sand bacteria product considering i have cycled media ready to go in my sump?

Thanks again for all the brilliant info you provide!

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thats a new one (at least to me, I don't pay attention to this stuff)... selling dry sand as a "live" product by including bottle bac and a carbon source.

 

[Reefahholic]

Much of the issue is a combination of poor understanding by both new reef keepers and those advising them. This decade's prevailing advice to new tank owners right out of the gate is "you must dose N and P". So before their rock is even wet they are buying dosing products and concentrating on raising N and P from the moment they fill the tank. Add the bottle bacteria and the rest of the "new" shortcuts and "avoid the uglies" products and these folks are making witches brew, not a coral reef.

I like the idea of this article as a means to counter some of the "new" ways by resetting thinking.

I definitely agree with that, but in some cases it’s needed. Especially in these new “dry rock” systems that everybody’s starting with, or Dinos will take control. Not to mention they’re running GAC, GFO, Ozone, UV, filter rollers, etc…right out of the gate before the nitrogen cycle is complete. If they would stop driving down the nutrients (especially phosphate), the tank would do much better in the beginning.



In the picture below on this last system (Started 01/21/22) even dosing phosphate almost from first week, it developed a nasty Osteoporosis Dino outbreak that lasted a full year. I think it’s important to dose if needed, but in many cases it’s just not needed, and many new reefers don’t understand how to dose or how much to dose safely. They end up doing more harm than good.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I get it, I am not a buy it in a bottle kind of guy. I was when I first started in FW because that's what I was told. Then I out my critical thinking cap on. Now I either use cycled media to Kickstart new tanks or I just let them take their sweet time. When I hear advice, particularly from a company, I question where the money is.

I apologize if I accidentally inferred that nitrifying bacteria and bacteria resulting from carbon dosing were one in the same. I am aware they are wholly different. Nitrifiers tend to cling to surfaces and build up biofilm/bio floc. Heterotrophic bacteria (like those generated with carbon dosing) are hungry little free floating buggers, to my understanding.

In FW, massive filtration area is king for water clarity because it gives huge surface area for nitrifying bacteria to make purchase on in order to out compete the heterotrophic bacteria working on DOCs floating in the water. I run "over filtration" in all my fw tanks to that end and have crystal clear water at all times.

I will continue learning and reading and working on both water clarity and typing clarity.

Oh, not a problem. It was a fine question.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok so i have small tangential question regarding this.

i currently have a bunch of rubble cycling in a tub for when my tank gets installed that i seeded with some live rock from a lfs.

I bought the aquaforest bio sand and it came with bottles of bacteria and bacteria "food" to make it live sand by adding it to a bucket with salt water for a couple days.

Would you suggest forgoing the sand bacteria product considering i have cycled media ready to go in my sump?

Thanks again for all the brilliant info you provide!

I don’t know. What are you going to put into the tank first when it is “ready”?

If fish, I’d probably use it. If a consumer of ammonia of some sort (like macroalgae or a soft coral), I wouldn’t.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thats a new one (at least to me, I don't pay attention to this stuff)... selling dry sand as a "live" product by including bottle bac and a carbon source.

I don’t understand that one myself. There’s quality LR and Sand available currently in the Florida Keys and Australia. I’d just buy the real deal.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I definitely agree with that, but in some cases it’s needed. Especially in these new “dry rock” systems that everybody’s starting with, or Dinos will take control. Not to mention they’re running GAC, GFO, Ozone, UV, filter rollers, etc…right out of the gate before the nitrogen cycle is complete. If they would stop driving down the nutrients (especially phosphate), the tank would do much better in the beginning.

Exactly my point - one "solution" begets more problems that need more "solutions" and yet us "oldheads" and our old ways are silly? And to think it is all to save a a few weeks in the scheme of a system that should run for years or decades.

I am not sure if this article will change minds, as the "peloton" of the hobby follows the lead of the social "influencers" that take their queue from those selling all of this stuff as mandatory for setting up a reef.

In any case, I look forward to its publication and the conversations that surround it.

 

[M4sonic]

Thats a new one (at least to me, I don't pay attention to this stuff)... selling dry sand as a "live" product by including bottle bac and a carbon source.

Its called aquaforest bio sand, i mostly bought it because its very white

I don’t know. What are you going to put into the tank first when it is “ready”?

If fish, I’d probably use it. If a consumer of ammonia of some sort (like macroalgae or a soft coral), I wouldn’t.

I was thinking of dosing ammonium bicarbonate to see if it can process the ammonia and adding my clowns as soon as it does. (which im hoping will be immediately )
So im guess im making my own live sand

 

[M4sonic]

I don’t understand that one myself. There’s quality LR and Sand available currently in the Florida Keys and Australia. I’d just buy the real deal.

Australia and Florida is about as far away as i can go from Belgium so i aint paying for that
I bought some live rock thats been stewing at my lfs for the last couple of years instead.

 

[Reefahholic]

Australia and Florida is about as far away as i can go from Belgium so i aint paying for that
I bought some live rock thats been stewing at my lfs for the last couple of years instead.

The Australian rock is shipping into New York this week also. Too bad you’re not in the states.

 

[Hans-Werner]

A 14:1 never has produced good results in my systems. The rocks get dirtier, and the system is overall dirtier especially in a younger system. I see better results running at 50:1-100:1. Do the corals need higher N? Are they up-taking It? Maybe not. I think they’d do ok at 2-3 ppm. I’ve keep lower level N many times, but If the tissue is thicker, colors are better/darker, and coral more robust at higher N level, it would seem they are up-taking something additional after 1ppm. You won’t find many hardcore acro guys who keep nitrate in the 1-2ppm range.

From all I know about biology of algae and corals this rather confirms that corals don't take up something additionally but maybe something less. I guess it is iron.

To find out exactly what is causing these effects, controlled experiments with varied or high phosphate concentrations, to find out whether competition for phosphate may play a role, would have to be done. The explanation doesn't fit the biochemistry of corals and algae.

 

[Reefahholic]

From all I know about biology of algae and corals this rather confirms that corals don't take up something additionally but maybe something less. I guess it is iron.

To find out exactly what is causing these effects, controlled experiments with varied or high phosphate concentrations, to find out whether competition for phosphate may play a role, would have to be done. The explanation doesn't fit the biochemistry of corals and algae.

It’s so complex it’s hard to truly know. There’s so many different variables even in a controlled experiment. I just go off how the corals look and the growth I’m getting. I also follow and ask everyone I know who’s getting crazy SPS growth.

Although I really wish I knew the correct answer for how much N is actually needed and what becomes excessive and no longer used.

I’m jumping aboard the ammonium bicarbonate train, and will be keeping nitrate lower which will be interesting. I’m hoping to learn something new.

I have a much better understanding of phosphate vs nitrate. Phosphate is definitely needed at higher values in some extreme situations. .03 or .05 just will not cut it.

 

[Hans-Werner]

t’s so complex it’s hard to truly know. There’s so many different variables even in a controlled experiment. I just go off how the corals look and the growth I’m getting. I also follow and ask everyone I know who’s getting crazy SPS growth.

The system is complex, the uptake of a single nutrient by a single group of organisms is not. It is just like I wrote above. After the nitrate uptake of corals is saturated, it most likely is just another ion for the corals, it isn't "more helps more". The uptake of inorganic nutrients of microalgae, plants and meanwhile also corals and zooxanthellae is quite well investigated. It is no secret or unknown how Michaelis-Menten kinetics of uptake looks like.