Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[taricha]

But why would adding cycle to fresh saltwater raise alkalinity.

I'm suggesting your alkalinity is not actually raised. I think something is messing with the Hannah ALK test you are using, and a titration alkalinity test will show that your true alk is not anywhere near 20.

... and that none of this stuff likely happened...

It wasn't adding the quick cycle that raised it, that was a side effect of nitrate being consumed.

 

[kecked]

Titration complete. It’s not real. 9.6 as it was on fresh mix.

 

[blecki]

I read this entire thread and decided to test it myself. From the initial experiments in 2021 there were a few issues I thought needed to be addressed - namely, was the test kit still good? Does Prime expire? Was the bottle expired?

I had a bottle of prime and a seachem multi test kit that are both ~6 months old. I placed RODI water in 2 chambers, the reference fluid that came with the test kit in 2, and tank water in 2. Expected results were that the RODI water and tank would both measure 0, and the reference would measure 1. I let them sit for 40 minutes (longer than required) and all disks stayed bright yellow. I then added the 'total ammonia' reagent from the test to one of each kind of sample; the reference fluid and tank water both changed (quickly) to about 0.25ppm ammonia, suggesting each had the same amount of total ammonia. The RODI water did not change, as expected. I then added prime to the all samples. I did not expect prime to change the total ammonia reading, and it did not. I was interested in if it would cause a 'false positive' in the samples that hadn't had the reagent added, and no.

Given that the reference which is supposed to be 1ppm ammonia read 0 free ammonia and 0.25 total ammonia I can only conclude that either the reference fluid or the test was bad.

 

[taricha]

Titration complete. It’s not real. 9.6 as it was on fresh mix.

Thanks for not running away and leaving the impression Prime was pushing alk to 20 dKH
I've always wondered how hanna does a colorimetric alk test without titration. Good info that it may be sensitive to reducing agent like Prime.

 

[kecked]

I respect you because it’s facts. I prefer to leave no trash if I can help It. nothing like a burrete full of hcl to tell the truth. It’s so easy I think that is my new method for home too. Be nice to use an indicator but ph probe seems best. I know wonder how many times be been fooled on other kits. Making a cal curve took the longest.

 

[taricha]

Given that the reference which is supposed to be 1ppm ammonia read 0 free ammonia and 0.25 total ammonia I can only conclude that either the reference fluid or the test was bad.

I'm not sure if the seachem reference fluid is buffered, that is, I have no idea if it's at stable pH ~8.0 so I have no idea how the NH3 reading would behave, even if the total ammonia level on the reference was correct.
Without larger volumes like a beaker that can be pH measured, it's hard to know what to expect from the NH3 value even if the total ammonia is known.

 

[pal98111]

^^^ which then brings up the question whether in a brightly lit aquarium like a reef tank and a cautious stocking rate, is ammonia like nitrite really not an issue in certain saltwater systems? An aquarium packed with fish, I think ammonia needs to be managed. An aquarium packed with coral, ammonia accumulation can be ignored. An aquarium packed with coral and a clean up crew, ditto. Ditto if a few small fish added AND coral are growing.

I use Fritz ACCR whenever my ammonia gets in to green zone on the test. One cap full for 10 gallons. The ammonia comes down and none of my fish die. Works for me. Much easier than a water change.

 

[taricha]

I use Fritz ACCR whenever my ammonia gets in to green zone on the test. One cap full for 10 gallons. The ammonia comes down and none of my fish die. Works for me.

I think you pointed that out here, and I responded in the next post. Not to rehash, but The 'C's in ACCR are chlorine and chloramine that it removes. Those are crucial to the functioning of your total ammonia test that goes green. So your test is no longer telling you the ammonia accurately.
The ingredient for ACCR is hydroxymethanesulfonate, btw.

I read this entire thread and decided to test it myself.

bless you!

I dosed nitrate and that looked way low. I have no way to nitrite but I think that would read low too. Someone with time should repeat this Unless it was on pages 7-32.

I know wonder how many times be been fooled on other kits. Making a cal curve took the longest.

To answer you, yes. Prime can interfere in the NO2 and NO3 tests as well.
I did look at that earlier. There are links to what I looked at in post 615.

Hach also documents reducing agents (like dechlorinators) as interfering with nitrite tests.

 

[blecki]

I want to setup an array of 5 gallon tanks and run the amphipod tests on some mollys. I just need everyone to chip in enough for about 10 seneye sensors. I promise not to spend it all on fancy lights and change my user name.

 

[blecki]

I'm not sure if the seachem reference fluid is buffered, that is, I have no idea if it's at stable pH ~8.0 so I have no idea how the NH3 reading would behave, even if the total ammonia level on the reference was correct.
Without larger volumes like a beaker that can be pH measured, it's hard to know what to expect from the NH3 value even if the total ammonia is known.

Right, but since the reference fluid actually measured 0.25 total ammonia and not the expected 1.0 I'm throwing out all results for, frankly, the same reason I threw out your own (or Dan_P? Whomever ran the initial test) - there's no control for bad test, bad batch of prime, etc. It would have to be repeated multiple times with a couple of bottles of prime from different batches and a couple of different tests. Not disputing the individual results but I would like to be able to replicate it myself; but; also not inclined to rush out and buy a brand new test kit and bottle of prime.

Incidentally the prime had no affect on the measures 0.25 total ammonia... but that was the expected outcome.

 

[taricha]

Not disputing the individual results but I would like to be able to replicate it myself

cool, makes sense. couple of comments:
"Does Prime® expire? A: No, as long as Prime® has been stored properly, it will last indefinitely." And I'm sure you'll find as we have that Prime behaves the same from one bottle to the next to the next (I've probably looked at 3 or 4 bottles).
Also you'll probably want to lower your expectations on getting the disk color to tightly map to the color card. At best you can get the disks to go to some semi-consistent color when subjected to known pH and total ammonia and use that as a baseline to evaluate what color it goes to at the same measured pH and total ammonia with and without Prime added.

 

[MnFish1]

I want to setup an array of 5 gallon tanks and run the amphipod tests on some mollys. I just need everyone to chip in enough for about 10 seneye sensors. I promise not to spend it all on fancy lights and change my user name.

It is my impression that Seneye is willing to supply monitors for research if they have a proposal. The problem in my mind is always going to be the semantics - which is 'remove' vs. 'detoxify'. Since it seems pretty clear that prime does not "remove" free ammonia. The very valid point against what I'm saying is that Seachem themselves state something that seems to have been disproven (i.e. that their tests can measure a change in free ammonia levels after Prime). I tried this experiment - and I could not see a change in free NH3 (posted in the experiment forum).

Additionally, for your experiment you don't need Seneyes. You need tanks with a known ammonia level - to which you would add fish to some and prime to some - the endpoint not being 'free ammonia' but rather changes in fish symptoms, mortality, etc. Secondly - you can look this up on the thread - but my recollection Is that the Seneye is not accurate with therapeutic levels of Prime - which further diminishes that use.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I know we’ve been round and round on the issue of toxicity, but IMO some Prime users have a false impression of how toxic ammonia is. Tomorrow I’m going to start a new thread to discuss the actual lethal toxicity levels of ammonia vs what reefers perceive the lethal concentrations to be.

Anyone having useful input on either actual data or reefer perceptions is welcomed to add to the chat!

 

[blecki]

It is my impression that Seneye is willing to supply monitors for research if they have a proposal.

I imagine that offer is only valid for, like, actual institutions. I doubt they would accept a proposal from the University of My Living Room.

I do have a breeding population of mollys on hand tho.

 

[MnFish1]

I imagine that offer is only valid for, like, actual institutions. I doubt they would accept a proposal from the University of My Living Room.

I do have a breeding population of mollys on hand tho.

No this is from another experiment on this forum. Not from an institition. However, IMHO - the issue is not the free ammonia level itself - (though it would be nice to have!!) its whether you can prevent fish distress using Prime + ammonia as compared to ammonia alone.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here’s the thread I mentioned:

How toxic is ammonia, really?

In the context of trying to understand why so many people believe Seachem Prime was useful for them in an elevated ammonia situation, against the data in the link below about Prime potentially doing nothing to free ammonia in seawater, the question arises, why...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[kecked]

I think if you are going to do this right you need to measure the complete nitrogen cycle and the dynamics of it. That requires being able to measure and track ALL of the oxidation states of the nitrogen and equilibriums as well as enzymatic transformations. And understanding how to limit and control the desired aspects. While some forms of nitrogen have more reactivity and hence are more likely to bind and cause issue, I think you need to understand the complete nitrogen cycle as well as the ph effects. For example the zeolite Clinoptiloliteworks great at a ph below 8 and more like 7 because the ammonia can be adsorbed on the zeolite. There are ruthenium complexes tthat can both oxidize and decompose ammonia ammonium etc… but they are expensive and Require conditions we can’t accept. Then there are ion exchange media etc…. I look forward to Randy’s series. Control of the system as a whole is required and just messing with one part isn’t a long term solution.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think if you are going to do this right you need to measure the complete nitrogen cycle and the dynamics of it. That requires being able to measure and track ALL of the oxidation states of the nitrogen and equilibriums as well as enzymatic transformations. And understanding how to limit and control the desired aspects. While some forms of nitrogen have more reactivity and hence are more likely to bind and cause issue, I think you need to understand the complete nitrogen cycle as well as the ph effects. For example the zeolite Clinoptiloliteworks great at a ph below 8 and more like 7 because the ammonia can be adsorbed on the zeolite. There are ruthenium complexes tthat can both oxidize and decompose ammonia ammonium etc… but they are expensive and Require conditions we can’t accept. Then there are ion exchange media etc…. I look forward to Randy’s series. Control of the system as a whole is required and just messing with one part isn’t a long term solution.

I’m not sure what point you are addressing. Going to do what right?

 

[kecked]

I’m just pointing out that just addressing some problem by throwing things at a part of a total system doesn’t solve the issue it just shifts equilibriums and leaves the problem or makes some other item take its place. I’ve been looking for ways to capture and decompose the ammonia before it oxidizes at all so the nitrate issue never becomes and issue. There just isn’t anything suitable for a marine system at normal pressure and temp other than bacteria which we use. I think we often focus on just a portion of a complete cycle and do not look holistically at the total system.

if we can control the input ie the ammonia we can control the full cycle of nitrogen.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m just pointing out that just addressing some problem by throwing things at a part of a total system doesn’t solve the issue it just shifts equilibriums and leaves the problem or makes some other item take its place. I’ve been looking for ways to capture and decompose the ammonia before it oxidizes at all so the nitrate issue never becomes and issue. There just isn’t anything suitable for a marine system at normal pressure and temp other than bacteria which we use. I think we often focus on just a portion of a complete cycle and do not look holistically at the total system.

Ok, that seems reasonable.