Do You Think Reefing Should Be Exclusive And/Or Expensive?

[AtlantiCat]

Expensive, no. Exclusive, well....

Coming from the freshwater world, I hate to say it, but...the average freshwater keeper is an idiot.

They want fish that are going to become giants and put them in undersized tanks, but they SWEAR they're "planning" to get a bigger tank EVENTUALLY.... Pacu do not belong in ANY size of commercial tank, yet you can still buy them at many pet stores.

Or they put a Betta in a bowl, keep it alive for 2 months and think they now know everything there is to know about keeping fish, and they're going to post about how easy it is and anybody can do it.

I kept freshwater for over 30 years before I ever decided on salt, and I would not want the average freshwater hobbyist to even consider saltwater. They would simply be killing things left and right, claiming to be experts after a year, and then passing along their bad advice as fact, like they do in freshwater.

I'd rather see Reefing be perceived as an expensive, exclusive hobby. Because in that case, those who don't bother doing research or learning anything will shy away from it, and those who actually bother to read and learn will find out that perception is incorrect.

Well, the exclusivity anyway. I swear this hobby gets more expensive by the minute.

 

[Acroconut]

I think it depends on what the expectation is of the person entering the hobby. I started my first reef tank back in the early 1990's after many years of freshwater aquarium keeping. I started with a 30 gal and then went to a successful 75 gal. In 2003 I had to move and I remember having a simple set up of a 5 gal tank with pulsing xenia coral and a very large brittle star, and found it to be very satisfying to look at, and the upkeep was not at all difficult. I think there is a place for everyone in this hobby, the problem is just helping people to see where to start. We live in McDonald land....everyone wants things fast.

 

[Tamberav]

Money doesn't buy success in this hobby, plenty of deep pockets get into the hobby, buy all the latest and greatest, fail or find out it is too much work and get out.

And there are plenty of budget minded people who do very well.

I don't think a higher cost is going to force everyone to care for their things better. Some people just have to have it NOW, no matter the cost.

 

[mousehunter]

I think it can be what you make of it. My stepson went to a school that offered an aquatics science course - part of the course was managing a salt water aquarium. You can get into the hobby fairly inexpensively with a FOWLR system - and pretty sure the LFS was sponsoring the class, and suspect they were working with the State Aquarium as well. I kind of bet they got live rock and salt water free , and the tank, pumps, filter at cost (and given their budget nature, that probably was not much). LFS knew it would make it up on livestock sales if they could hook the kids on the hobby.

 

[apb03]

Money doesn't buy success in this hobby, plenty of deep pockets get into the hobby, buy all the latest and greatest, fail or find out it is too much work and get out.

And there are plenty of budget minded people who do very well.

I don't think a higher cost is going to force everyone to care for their things better. Some people just have to have it NOW, no matter the cost.

Can't escape human nature. The more invested one is, the more likely they will push to succeed. Sure they may still fail, but the fact is the more money you spend, the more committed you are to the project. It's how we prioritize value and it's a cold hard fact.

 

[Nano_Man]

No
We need the younger generation to take up the hobby
And like every thing theses days people are getting priced out . As soon as you mention Marine Boom the price triples
Something has to give at some point in the hobby .

 

[lbacha]

Reefing is going to be exclusive and expensive no matter what. Even people that have a budget tank spend more than many people can afford. There are hobbies that are inclusive of anyone because the cost of entry is minimal (now a days they are fewer and fewer). Even if someone gives you the equipment the monthly maintenance costs may be more than many people can afford. Not sure there is much that can happen to change the fact that keeping a slice of ocean in your house has a cost and because of that will be exclusive to people that can afford that cost.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

Thank you Sir, but I am very much a nobody in the reefing world, and I am completely cool with that. I just like to participate and help others when I can. I welcome all opinions, and don’t take offense. This poll isn’t my point of view, it’s just a way to discuss our viewpoints in general.

You post good questions, take amazing pictures, and are very welcoming on the forum. I feel like you aren't giving yourself enough credit, haha.

 

[Tamberav]

Can't escape human nature. The more invested one is, the more likely they will push to succeed. Sure they may still fail, but the fact is the more money you spend, the more committed you are to the project. It's how we prioritize value and it's a cold hard fact.

yes but value is different to each person, a $100 fish is a lot to some people, and others have enough income that it isn't much at all to them, it is just a typical dinner.

Then you have those that seem to not even be able to afford a tank but they buy big fish and put them in 40g and do it quickly, suddenly we got 8 fish in there, probably a couple tangs or such in 2 weeks then they get sick and die... and they even say how that stuff is too expensive and they lost $$ much. They "plan" to upgrade but don't have the money.. yada yada.. tale repeats itself over and over with the next beginner... they rushed and went fast regardless of the warnings because people think it will be different for them...

It is still happening even at fish prices now. If anything, fish seem to be less healthy now coming in from wholesalers which only increases people failure..

 

[PotatoPig]

IMO given pretty much all livestock is highly sensitive to temperature, flow, oxygen content, water parameters, light, space, etc etc etc and many fish and inverts flatly won’t breed in captivity, the price of these animals is high, but I can definitely see why.

 

[Reefer Matt]

You post good questions, take amazing pictures, and are very welcoming on the forum. I feel like you aren't giving yourself enough credit, haha.

Lol. Thanks! As do many Reefers here, also. I haven’t done anything remarkable, and don’t need credit for anything. If there is a perception above that, then I’ll see what I can do to correct it. I’m just a hobbyist like most folks here.

 

[areefer01]

Reefing is going to be exclusive and expensive no matter what. Even people that have a budget tank spend more than many people can afford. There are hobbies that are inclusive of anyone because the cost of entry is minimal (now a days they are fewer and fewer). Even if someone gives you the equipment the monthly maintenance costs may be more than many people can afford. Not sure there is much that can happen to change the fact that keeping a slice of ocean in your house has a cost and because of that will be exclusive to people that can afford that cost.

I'm not sure I understand why "exclusive and expensive" keep getting thrown around. Again it is budget and expectations. Someone will always be prettier or more handsome. There will always be people that are smarter or have more luck. There will always be people that have more drive or passion. There will always be people that are able to capitalize and their circumstances. We are, to be blunt, all different. And our parents and families are also different. So our upbringing and experiences are different.

Today in the US PetCo has 50% off sale on Aqueon displays. A 40 breeder is $65 US dollars. $100 dollars for a 60 breeder. 20 long is $30. You get the idea. Various sizes all under 100 bucks.

Add on a HOB filter. Tidal 35, 55, or 75 (also align with respected tank size). If I was doing the 40 breeder I would get the Tidal 35 for 48 bucks. The Tidal 55 for the 60 and it is 60 bucks.

I can buy those and tuck them away in a spare room or garage and then order the next set of things when on sale. Heater I may want to splurge on but I can buy lighting used and save money. Rock I can start with dry or splurge. Splurge I would probably buy dry rock on sale and then a treasure chest box from TBS or similar from KP Aquatics. Put them together, toss in a heater, and let the rocks and life spread. I could also do this in the display while I work on the other parts.

Holiday season - massive sales. Buy here.

Salt - instant ocean. Buy on sale 35 to 50 bucks.

Fish - Biota has captive bred lyretail damsels right now for 20 bucks a pop. I would buy 3 or 5. Links goby is 30 bucks. Neon blue cleaner goby 50. Royal Gramma 50. Fork tail blenny 35.

Biology pack - I'd spend 100 bucks at indo pacific sea farms. Get snails, rubble, worms, sand activator, and sometimes they throw in a coral.

Snails LFS. I don't need many to start.

Corals - shop around. You are not buying boutique corals at this stage of the game. You will buy a green acropora or a green leather or a piece of rubble with Xenia on it. You will buy frags that more than likely will have no name or a name but a smaller frag from someone local. Someone that is trimming their display back and offering the clippings to fellow hobbyist.

I mean we have all read posts or watch content of someone setting something up at a reasonable price. You just have to start and go. It won't happen over night. You find the tank sale. You find other things on sale. You buy, stash, and repeat. Once you have it ready then you go.

Its been said over and over and I'm falling into the trap of repeating it again. Budget. Plan. Be reasonable. Expectations. Patience. And finally wear sunscreen.

Hope you all have an amazing day and be kind to one another.

 

[Reefer911]

Just a question on what I think are two mentalities toward reefing. Should reefing be affordable for anyone wanting to try? Or should it be expensive and perhaps exclusive to a select few? Your response is anonymous, but feel free to provide your point of view also.

Supply and demand will dictate as it always has. It’s pointless to say anything “should” be less expensive.
Take today’s current supply and demand. Who in their right mind will lower their prices just because they want the hobby to be less expensive? Ain’t gonna happen.

 

[Reefer Matt]

Who in their right mind will lower their prices just because they want the hobby to be less expensive?

I do. But I’m a local only seller.

 

[lbacha]

I do. But I’m a local only seller.

the problem with the hobby right now is it’s like a pyramid scheme. People think they can buy in using credit and money they don’t really have then sell frags to pay for the hobby and eventually break even. Sellers keep this going (they are part of the pyramid with established companies at the top and newer sellers at the bottom of the pyramid) as they keep their prices high in the hopes of breaking even and making the hobby affordable.

When I got started (early 90’s) everyone knew the hobby cost money and you didn’t get into it expecting to break even or ever make money. You knew you were going to spend and spend to enjoy it which also meant you were more than willing to share since you were sharing with others that spent to get into the hobby as well. I was 16 when I started feeding and I did everything on a budget but I still worked and saved every penny I had to even afford that budget approach. Luckily I knew some established reefers that would share corals with me so I could keep the price down (all my fish were common and cheap as I had to buy them).

This is also not a hobby where you save up and make your purchase and you are done spending. The ongoing costs are one of the main reasons it is expensive.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

I don’t think reefing should be just cheap nor just expensive.
I started my first reef tank around the year 2000 when I was about 13 years old or so. I set that tank up with a used aluminum framed 150L tank, T8 bulbs, a skimmer with a wooden airstone a couple of pumps and a heater. Worked perfectly well and was well within the budget of a kid who worked some odd jobs on the weekends.
Fast forward to today and I’ve probably got the best equipment there is, a separate sump room…the works.

I think reefing is in a good place where it sits right now. You can set up a tank like the one I described above for virtually nothing and you can make it just about as expensive as you’d like….as with most hobbies.
If there was a cost barrier which made it virtually impossible to have any success in reefing I would be of a completely different mind but there simply isn’t one.

 

[Reefer Matt]

the problem with the hobby right now is it’s like a pyramid scheme. People think they can buy in using credit and money they don’t really have then sell frags to pay for the hobby and eventually break even. Sellers keep this going (they are part of the pyramid with established companies at the top and newer sellers at the bottom of the pyramid) as they keep their prices high in the hopes of breaking even and making the hobby affordable.

When I got started (early 90’s) everyone knew the hobby cost money and you didn’t get into it expecting to break even or ever make money. You knew you were going to spend and spend to enjoy it which also meant you were more than willing to share since you were sharing with others that spent to get into the hobby as well. I was 16 when I started feeding and I did everything on a budget but I still worked and saved every penny I had to even afford that budget approach. Luckily I knew some established reefers that would share corals with me so I could keep the price down (all my fish were common and cheap as I had to buy them).

This is also not a hobby where you save up and make your purchase and you are done spending. The ongoing costs are one of the main reasons it is expensive.

Agreed. I am fortunate to have a (non reefing) career that affords my reefing to be 100% paid off. I don’t carry any credit on purchases. I have a lot of coral because I like coral. Most of my frags are not even for sale. But when something grows off the plug or gets huge, I will refrag it and offer it for cheap just to share (I aquaculture all my coral). But I do respect those who are in the industry and rely on their reefing business to provide for their families and themselves. I have yet to meet someone who got rich from reefing though.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

I think that we can make it as cheap or expensive as we choose. It doesn't help having people tell you you need the latest more expensive gear. Cost is all relative to the person. Someone with little extra cash can choose ether low cost or break his personal bank. On the other hand someone with large amounts of extra cash can do the same thing. Everyone knows Polo reef.

 

[fish farmer]

yes but value is different to each person, a $100 fish is a lot to some people, and others have enough income that it isn't much at all to them, it is just a typical dinner.

Then you have those that seem to not even be able to afford a tank but they buy big fish and put them in 40g and do it quickly, suddenly we got 8 fish in there, probably a couple tangs or such in 2 weeks then they get sick and die... and they even say how that stuff is too expensive and they lost $$ much. They "plan" to upgrade but don't have the money.. yada yada.. tale repeats itself over and over with the next beginner... they rushed and went fast regardless of the warnings because people think it will be different for them...

It is still happening even at fish prices now. If anything, fish seem to be less healthy now coming in from wholesalers which only increases people failure..

I remember setting up a FOWLR tank for a local campground. The boss had bucks, she wanted big, pretty fish and if they die, "just buy more".

I cringed at that....just on the fact I would have to fix the icky looking fish while little camper kids looking on. I searched several states for the best looking regal tang. Kept the tank and dory going for close to 20 years.

I feel the same about a lot of beginners with expectations of full blown hard coral reefs with dozens of fish when in reality they should start with a clown or two and some mushrooms.

Entry level in this hobby shouldn't be crazy expensive and if anyone feels that it is, probably didn't shop around or like many say "buy once, cry once".

 

[BiGGiePauls33]

This hobby is like any other one, you can succeed a multitude of ways, whether inexpensive or expensive as well as fail equally both ways. I've always bought used, second hand aquariums and equipment. This current system, I bought everything new. I had a GHL Profilux P4 controller and Pentair 40w UV that carried over, but I felt at 47 going on 48 if I wanted to treat myself, why not. Full GHL system, four powerbars, four GHL Mitras LX 7206 LEDs, RE Bubble King Deluxe 200 skimmer, RE Red Dragon Eco 5 return, Sea Sweep with Tunze 6105, 70lbs, Austalina live rock, the list goes on and on. I'm probably in for close to 25k on this system, but could have only spent the $4100 on the tank.