Do You Think Reefing Should Be Exclusive And/Or Expensive?

[Turtle_reef]

You got it! Totally on the same page about cost being a bit of a gatekeeper in reefkeeping. Makes people think twice before diving in, which is better for the creatures in the long run.

Those YouTube channels showing off all the fancy gadgets can be misleading. Not everyone needs a tricked-out Apex or Trident right off the bat! Learning the basics is way more important. Like, manually testing with a Hanna checker is way more valuable for understanding the system than relying solely on automation. Getting the hang of water parameters, fish compatibility, and coral needs is key before dropping a ton of cash on high-tech equipment.

I'm about 2.5 years into the hobby and have worked my way way up from a 13.5g, to 25 g, to finally a Neptunian Cube M150! Which i feel what i've learned has shown some serious dedication. I had learned without an RODI unit at first. Now with the bigger tank, I feel confident in purchasing gear, and the right gear at that based on my knowledge ive learned throughout my years in this hobby.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

I think it should be in the middle. It should be expensive enough that people must research and know what they are getting into before starting a tank. However, it shouldn't be priced so badly that even simple livestock or equipment is too expensive for many people.

 

[Serpentman2024]

This is a tough one. There is a fine line between exclusivity and exclusion. Should reefing be so costly that its a prohibitive barrier to entry, no. However, should it be within the grasp of everyone, no. The lower the cost, the less perceived value. Trust me, many fish and corals have died at the hands of inexperienced keepers over the course of this hobby. I'm certainly guilty. Back in the day, reefing was very experimental and almost an exercise of killing things slower rather than propagating and growing. Because there is money to be made aka value, there has been investment in captive breeding, equipment development, etc. However, with that being said, we have become a point and click society that expects instant gratification. There is a mentality of that looks cool, I'll buy it with little to no research. If something costs more, people tend to do more due diligence. Granted, that is a generality as there are still plenty of people with lots of money and zero patience. I see some of the questions people post on FB and cringe.

On the flip side, reefing should be within the grasp of those interested in pursuing it. For example, we need it to be affordable enough that a younger generation can appreciate it. With that being said, not everyone's first car needs to be a Cadillac. There are still plenty of DIY and budget solutions to most reefing challenges.

 

[GARRIGA]

Next phase of testing will either confirm my thoughts since the 70s or put a nix to them. Unfortunately, due to college and work I had to step away due mostly to time constraints which have eased past 7 years and now look forward to finally getting my dream build and focus being simplicity which will result in an overall lower cost reef tank assuming I get my pH fixed. No traditional sump. No skimmer. Less wave makers. Less if any water changes. Biggest expense being tank, lights, controller, dosing and elements added to keep ions in equilibrium. More importantly, wife not smelling skimmate which means happier life for me.

I can afford the bells and whistles but being a day trader means I value money in that it's needed to make money therefore saving where possible is a need and not a luxury. For others, their budget won't allow those bells and whistles yet might find there are still ways to enjoy their passion. We don't require Sticks to claim reef status and don't need fancy sumps as used tanks can solve that nor do we need iron free glass, either. Can do a lot with less so long as one grasps their limits early on and build around that. Clicks on Instagram will still come if money spent mostly on what lives inside that box of water and not mostly spent on making it's life support look fancy. Heck an undergravel filter still works. Just add a refugium. Approach I'm taking. To some extent.

 

[Jmp998]

I understand the argument for some sort of gate keeping since we are dealing with living organisms and should take that responsibility seriously. I’m just not sure cost is the best way to achieve that. There are plenty of very responsible people that don’t have a lot of disposable income but would take great care of a reef tank, and there are plenty of irresponsible people who have high paying jobs-or are willing to max out their credit cards-and will buy something pretty on impulse with no research.

I don’t have a better solution. Most vendors are not going to be the gatekeepers and lose sales in the process.

I don’t believe there is any gatekeeping on getting a dog, cat, bird, hamster, etc. those are all arguably at least as intelligent and worthy of responsible care as most of what we keep in our tanks.

 

[rhitee93]

I don't think there is much, if any, correlation between someone's budget and their aptitude or attitude toward keeping their livestock in conditions where they thrive. Just because you can afford a $1k doesn't mean you will care for it properly.

Conversely, you may have someone who is doing everything they can within their budget, but could do a much better job if they could only afford a piece of equipment that would make it easier. In this case cost is an obstacle to the well being of the inhabitants.

One thing that helps keeps me motivated to do a good job is posting a FTS of my system in a build thread every week

 

[Dburr1014]

I voted no.

But there should be a way to control.

I remember going to the humain society and had to take a short questionnaire. I asked why and they said because most people don't realize how expensive it is to own a cat/dog.

I don't know if it's really possible to do that but, we are dealing with live animals. People need to know before taking it on.

 

[Bitis Botanical]

I'm newer to reef keeping but I've been involved in freshwater and the herp hobby since the 90s. I've seen so many people argue that a lack of disposable income doesn't have anything to do with their ability to care for their animals but the end result is always the same: animals suffering and dying. If you're broke how do you consistently buy quality foods and consumables like salt, filters for your ro system, filter media, etc? How do you replace a critical piece of equipment in a timely manner when it breaks? How do you pay for sudden veterinary expenses? Power bill? Water bill? What about the cost of housing so you and your animals have a stable living situation instead of having to constantly move or look for new roommates? Aquarium keeping and other animal hobbies doesn't need to be a country club but there definitely should be some barrier to entry for the sake of the animals in our care.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I clicked on this because it said, “Exclusive.” I know someone, if I could, I would set up a Ban, on him having an Aquarium, of any kind. He’s a rich killing machine.

 

[AlyciaMarie]

Let's face it, this is a tough issue. As many have pointed out, it's a delicate balance. Typically, when things are more expensive, it causes the investor to look deeper and make an informed decision. Of course, you always still have those outliers. We don't want to make reefing so difficult that it discourages new hobbyists, but we also don't want it to be so easy that anyone can walk into a store and buy up all the livestock, only to end up with dead or mistreated animals.

I believe someone mentioned it already in this thread, but I have spoken to other hobbyists about their thoughts about being "certified" or "licensed" to own saltwater fish or livestock. Perhaps it doesn't look like classes and exams but more like requiring proof that one can adequately care for the tanks in their care.

When I adopted my cat, I had to provide proof of address, landlord pet agreements, income, and adequate living conditions. They weren't checking to ensure I lived in the best part of town or had a 6 figure job. They were making sure that I had the most essential tools to give an animal a safe home out of respect for the life of the cat that they were about to hand over to someone else whom they did not know. It's even more of a tedious process with exotic pets. I'm not saying this is how it should work for reefing; I just wanted to give a bit of perspective on how it's managed with other animals. The amount of livestock and rate we sell and trade would present a huge issue to work out if the hobby ever tipped in the direction people endorse for adopting domesticated animals like cats and dogs. I personally can't see where that is ever a reality.

Ultimately, the ideal scenario would be for the hobby to find a balanced approach. We need to educate those who may not fully realize the level of commitment reefing entails, while also not excluding individuals with limited funds but a genuine passion for reefing. Success in reef-keeping doesn't hinge on having the most money, but it does require a willingness to make sacrifices in various aspects, including finances.

Should I add a TLDR up top .

 

[ackshee]

I understand the argument for some sort of gate keeping since we are dealing with living organisms and should take that responsibility seriously. I’m just not sure cost is the best way to achieve that. There are plenty of very responsible people that don’t have a lot of disposable income but would take great care of a reef tank, and there are plenty of irresponsible people who have high paying jobs-or are willing to max out their credit cards-and will buy something pretty on impulse with no research.

I think it ultimately comes down to education. I think a lot of people don't do enough research on their own, or aren't exposed to enthusiasts who can talk to them and educate them. Let's be honest, the vast majority of reef tank owners aren't posting on internet forums, they're getting their info from some guy at the fish store.

I think a big part of the issue is that "exotic pets" are supported by a community of enthusiasts, but most of the physical goods are sold by businesses. A business has an incentive to make money. Which is why prices are high, and why so many stores sell people types of fish that they shouldn't own, or products they don't need.

I don't think the barrier for entry should be strictly income-related, because like you're saying, many "broke" people find a way to maintain a beautiful reef tank, and many "rich" people neglect their tanks.

I'm newer to reef keeping but I've been involved in freshwater and the herp hobby since the 90s. I've seen so many people argue that a lack of disposable income doesn't have anything to do with their ability to care for their animals but the end result is always the same: animals suffering and dying. If you're broke how do you consistently buy quality foods and consumables like salt, filters for your ro system, filter media, etc? . . . Aquarium keeping and other animal hobbies doesn't need to be a country club but there definitely should be some barrier to entry for the sake of the animals in our care.

I mostly agree with you. I have owned various herps, fish, invertebrates, and mammals over the years since I was a kid. I personally believe that I should not own a pet unless I can provide it with truly optimal care. All my pets get spoiled.

When I was a kid, my parents didn't allow me to get a new pet until I had done weeks of research and written a 2-3 page report on the care requirements of the animal I wanted. My mom and I would chat about the responsibilities that would come with it, like what would happen if we went on vacation, and how I would pay for food, all that stuff. I didn't get a lot of pets that I asked for, because they were unreasonable. But my parents were okay with some of the more reasonable pets, so I saved up my money and made it happen.

I think in general, that's the way that more people should approach a new pet. Do a ton of research, budget it out, and see if it will work for you. You mentioned disposable income. Obviously things cost money. But having a community of enthusiasts around you always helps a lot. A lot of things don't require a disposable income when you can get hand-me-downs from your friends.

 

[JustAnotherNanoTank]

No, I think it should be exactly how it is.

You can get in with great used gear to get started.

Smaller tanks cost less but can be less interesting.

I’ve also seen large tanks done wrong to me which makes them boring.

Your income/spending habits limits how far you go. Which is the case in everything.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

Just a question on what I think are two mentalities toward reefing. Should reefing be affordable for anyone wanting to try? Or should it be expensive and perhaps exclusive to a select few? Your response is anonymous, but feel free to provide your point of view also.

I cast my vote as a yes, simply because ENOUGH animals die in this hobby of ours due to lack of experience and knowledge, and sometimes just plain mishaps. If it were cheap, I believe this problem would only compound exponentially.

 

[Thalasstronaut]

I haven’t thought this through entirely but I wouldn’t be opposed to being to get some sort of “reef aquarist” permit in order to be able to purchase saltwater livestock.

If the goal is proper stewardship, I don’t know it simply raising the costs on everything is the way to do that. A reef tank is inherently a luxury, so someone with means to afford the decked out system will be as able to be careless with a $300 fish as a working stiff would be to be careless with a $3 one.

Having extra money doesn’t make someone more knowledgeable or careful. And that’s the barrier set by high prices.

I don’t know what the answer is, because stewardship is severely lacking for many aquarists and for many companies, frankly.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I wonder what the costs of the various items (hardware, livestock) would be if all the external costs were included in the retail price. Environmental costs of fuel (etc) for shipping and manufacturing, energy consumption for ongoing life support, environmental degradation from collecting.

But whatever all that adds up to, that's how expensive it should be at the least.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I cast my vote as a yes, simply because ENOUGH animals die in this hobby of ours due to lack of experience and knowledge, and sometimes just plain mishaps. If it were cheap, I believe this problem would only compound exponentially.

To be fair, every Reefer loses livestock. I don’t think anyone other than newer hobbyists can claim otherwise. Even the top of the line vendors have losses, they just don’t advertise it. But I do get the gist of your point of view, and agree we aren't dealing with Pokemon cards here, and should be more sensitive to the care of the animals.

 

[Sophie"s mom]

To be fair, every Reefer loses livestock. I don’t think anyone other than newer hobbyists can claim otherwise. Even the top of the line vendors have losses, they just don’t advertise it. But I do get the gist of your point of view, and agree we aren't dealing with Pokemon cards here, and should be more sensitive to the care of the animals.

Yes, I agree. That is what I meant by "just plain mishaps". It happens to all of us, and sometimes we never find out why. I do feel as though the expense involved in this hobby keeps some people (though well intentioned) away with good reason.

 

[CaptainAndy]

It doesn't have to be expensive. It is just that the industry and marketing are outrageous.
Years ago I bit my lip when I bought frag farmers acros from Steve Tyree for a 100 dollars. Now people are convinced that they need to own a mushroom for 500 dollars. A mushroom.

Tanks, filters and lighting prices are approximately 10 time the price compared to 10-15 years ago.

What the question really is - how sophisticated a system do you need. Rather than listen to what the manufacturers push

 

[robg2008]

I think I would use a different word here. Our hobby should be accessible.

Just any hobby there should be entry level to high level. While only being in the hobby a year I have dove in and it’s consumed a good portion of my free time and it opens my wallet regularly and I enjoy that.

Some like myself are okay committing larger sums of money for high end corals and dream type set ups.

But the hobby needs balance. We need an avenue for those will less means or beginners to buy that 20 dollar grab and 50 buck rainbow nem.

 

[Peter Houde]

Regardless of what I/we think it should be, it just is [expensive]. It was expensive even when it wasn't (compared to today). Yes, anything wild-caught, mostly fish, should be expensive and expensive to keep, as a gate keeper. But a lot of novices can fork out the cost of new fish before they discover by bad experience that the up-front cost isn't the whole story. On the other hand, so many corals are propagated in captivity. They multiply and grow so fast you need to cull them and just throw them away. It would be great if reefing was more accessible for people to keep the captive bred stuff. IMO, you can get away will poorer water conditions for a lot of fish, but they're more susceptible to untimely death.

Unfortunately, it seems there has become a designer market for just about every discretionary hobby or activity. My 2015 bicycle cost me more than USD$5K, and I continuously pour money into it as though it was a boat or a horse. On the aquarium front, good products that I long-depended on are forever being discontinued. Their replacements are astronomically more expensive and most don't even work as well. There are products now that we never knew we even needed ... and did well enough without. Where will it end?