All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?

[Reefahholic]

Can you provide evidence that strontium is an important element to supplement?

I've looked for such evidence for many, many years and have not seen it.

Yes, Acro dominant tanks are using a lot of Sr. We’re seeing this across the board.

Can you provide evidence that Sr is not an important element for SPS or coral growth in general? I have not seen it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If you need to rely heavily on weekly or biweekly water changes to help it out, or use a salt low in Ca to mitigate a spike, I wouldn’t call that a stand alone approach. It certainly isn’t stand alone are able to keep up in a heavily dominated SPS system.

You can define stand alone however you want. I define it as the only product used other than ordinary water changes.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, Acro dominant tanks are using a lot of Sr. We’re seeing this across the board.

Can you provide evidence that Sr is not an important element for SPS or coral growth in general? I have not seen it.

Of course they do. So does abiotic precipitation, as is well known to incorporate similar amounts. It is simple chemical replacement of strontium in place of calcium.

That does not mean it is of any value.

lots of people do not dose strontium and their corals are fine. I never dosed it.

 

[Reefahholic]

So your evidence that it is not a stand alone product is chemical testing to look for numbers that you believe are desirable rather than evidence of reefs using only it?

Anybody can look at NSW and see the ranges of the world’s oceans. We know that chemistry varies, but we also know that numbers shooting through the roof are not ideal, and this is easily understood by looking a problems in the system. The same applies when many elements are depleted. It’s quite simple to see and understand.

 

[Reefahholic]

I mean icp were some clowns that wrestled when I started reefing and keeping sps successfully.. I’ll never spend my money on a icp test that’s been shown to be inaccurate over and over!

Depends on which ICP you use. I use OCEAMO and Christoph is a respected PhD level chemist (University of Technology, Vienna, Austria).

He’s held academic positions (senior scientist), as well as industry positions (development of radioparmaceuticals including pharmaceutical quality management systems). He knows how to run his lab.

Far from clowning around my friend.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Anybody can look at NSW and see the ranges of the world’s oceans. We know that chemistry varies, but we also know that numbers shooting through the roof are not ideal, and this is easily understood by looking a problems in the system. The same applies when many elements are depleted. It’s quite simple to see and understand.

It is fine to argue that maintaining natural levels of everything is a worthy goal and is the most conservative approach to complex issues.

That does not mean those levels are needed or optimal.

 

[Reefahholic]

My only issue is when they call users of the product newbies.

OK, for you I will retract that statement. MOST users of that product are indeed newbies. But I agree… not all.

 

[Reefahholic]

Of course they do. So does abiotic precipitation, as is well known to incorporate similar amounts. It is simple chemical replacement of strontium in place of calcium.

That does not mean it is of any value.

lots of people do not dose strontium and their corals are fine. I never dosed it.

That may be the case, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it “isn’t” of any value.

It’s hard for me to believe that when systems full of Acro’s see much more Sr consumption, that the corals aren’t using it as a beneficial element. I’m assuming it has some value, but I could be wrong.

Have you seen any papers that say it’s not of any value for SPS or other corals? I’ll certainly take a look at that. I also want to note that when my tank started to grow well, that the Sr consumption demand corresponded with that, but maybe it is chemical replacement. I don’t know. I personally believe it has value, and that’s why they’re using it. I’d rather have it in there than not have it in there. I mean, I can see the Coraline growth do better with it in there also.

 

[rtparty]

Depends on which ICP you use. I use OCEAMO and Christoph is a respected PhD level chemist (University of Technology, Vienna, Austria).

He’s held academic positions (senior scientist), as well as industry positions (development of radioparmaceuticals including pharmaceutical quality management systems). He knows how to run his lab.

Far from clowning around my friend.

 

[Reefahholic]

You can define stand alone however you want. I define it as the only product used other than ordinary water changes.

A method that is able to operate independently without needing the help of multiple other products or rely heavily on water changes to keep it functional.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That may be the case, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it “isn’t” of any value.

It’s hard for me to believe that when systems full of Acro’s see much more Sr consumption, that the corals aren’t using it as a beneficial element. I’m assuming it has some value, but I could be wrong.

Have you seen any papers that say it’s not of any value for SPS or other corals? I’ll certainly take a look at that. I also want to note that when my tank started to grow well, that the Sr consumption demand corresponded with that, but maybe it is chemical replacement. I don’t know. I personally believe it has value, and that’s why they’re using it. I’d rather have it in there than not have it in there. I mean, I can see the Coraline growth do better with it in there also.

I studied every possible paper I could find for my strontium article, and while I have not continually searched since then, I have not seen any demonstrating (or even testing) a need. There are lots and lots of such papers since oceanographers use the amount of strontium incorporated in coral fossils, and sometimes which isotopes of strontium, as an indicator of the temperature of ancient oceans since the incorporation rate is temp dependent.

Realize almost no scientist is going to study lack of strontium on corals because it never happens in nature.

Aquarium Chemistry: Strontium and the Reef Aquarium

This article on strontium is the second of several that delve into a variety of issues involving magnesium and strontium.

reefs.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A method that is able to operate independently without needing the help of multiple other products or rely heavily on water changes to keep it functional.

Not sure how the term heavily is defined, but OK, whatever you want the definition to be, use it.

I choose a different definition.

 

[Reefahholic]

I studied every possible paper I could find for my strontium article, and while I have not continually searched since then, I have not seen any demonstrating (or even testing) a need. There are lots and lots of such papers since oceanographers use the amount of strontium incorporated in coral fossils, and sometimes which isotopes of strontium, as an indicator of the temperature of ancient oceans since the incorporation rate is temp dependent.

Realize almost no scientist is going to study lack of strontium on corals because it never happens in nature.

Aquarium Chemistry: Strontium and the Reef Aquarium

This article on strontium is the second of several that delve into a variety of issues involving magnesium and strontium.

reefs.com

Yeah, too bad we don’t have good data out there yet. Maybe in 5 more years we’ll have some new studies pop up that give us more insight.

 

[Dburr1014]

OK, for you I will retract that statement. MOST users of that product are indeed newbies. But I agree… not all.

Hmmm, this is a side I have not seen before. I'm not really liking it.

Why do you think it is for newbies?

Isn't it just another way to reef?

I am not a newbie. I am contemplating switching to AFR from my calrx. It just seems easier, less equipment, less to break down.

How's your restart going you old pro?

 

[Reefahholic]

Not sure how the term heavily is defined, but OK, whatever you want the definition to be, use it.

I choose a different definition.

Do you disagree that in many younger systems some elements will be overdosed because the lack of consumption?

Or similarly in thriving established SPS dominated system with moderate to large biomass…consumption rates will outrun the predetermined fixed ratios of AFR, and supplemental dosing will be required for several elements?

 

[Garf]

Hmmm, this is a side I have not seen before. I'm not really liking it.

Why do you think it is for newbies?

Isn't it just another way to reef?

I am not a newbie. I am contemplating switching to AFR from my calrx. It just seems easier, less equipment, less to break down.

How's your restart going you old pro?

Been doing this game for 20 years and decided to start A4R on the wife's tank a few weeks ago as it's maxed out on kalk. Easy peasy.

 

[Reefahholic]

Why do you think it is for newbies?

It’s not an insult. It’s just a fact. There are a lot, and I mean a lot of brand new reefers on AFR. I think the name “All For Reef” draws them right in.

I think others just like the thought and simplicity of an AIO product. I’ve tried many of them, and none of them have worked well for me. They just lack the control needed.

 

[areefer01]

Yeah, too bad we don’t have good data out there yet. Maybe in 5 more years we’ll have some new studies pop up that give us more insight.

You can't use something that may, or may not, come about in the future to promote your opinion today. I mean let us be realistic here.

Some say the ideal level is between 7 - 10 mg/l for Strontium. Depends on the source of reference. My personal opinion is that I do not test for it. I don't really care. Out of sight, out of mind. I know I am not going to overdose it. In my reef the value is pretty steady when I look at the trend. It is starting to trend down but this would be expected as I have a couple large Acropora's that are really starting to grow and I accidently busted off a branch, glued it to rubble, and now those are taking off.

I do not run an additive based system. I don't have a problem with them. I think they are for hobbyist who like more control and/or they like to be busy. It isn't a method for me although if I was to try one it would be DSR.

For reference.

I do water changes between 2 and 3 weeks apart, 20 gallons. That is what, 9% out of my 210 gallon display + refugium? If I continue with that schedule, I say if because there may be delays, that would be 81% of the total water changed in the display in 1 year. Just napkin math here mind you.

Long and short of it is that I don't see an overdose nor do I see it being required to adjust/increase.

Hope your day is well.

 

[Dburr1014]

Or similarly in thriving established SPS dominated system with moderate to large biomass…consumption rates will outrun the predetermined fixed ratios of AFR, and supplemental dosing will be required for several elements?

I don't ever dose traces. Ever. Except what my new traces that are in the calcium reactor media and what's in one gallon a day WC.
My corals are still growing regardless.

Been doing this game for 20 years and decided to start A4R on the wife's tank a few weeks ago as it's maxed out on kalk. Easy peasy.

Same. I have all ATO water going through a Kalk reactor. Been like this for a few years now.

 

[areefer01]

It’s not an insult. It’s just a fact.

Do you remember the movie E.T.? When Gertie sees E.T. for the first time?

This is me when you say "It's just a fact".

Can you please provide the information that you are using as evidence or thing proving it to be true? If not, then you need to say "in your opinion".

Look - I think you and I would have a good time over a beverage or two. I do. Same hobby, passion, etc. But you are not being cool with the continued use of newbie and fact statement.

Edit: with that in mind I'm tapping out. Hope everyone has a great weekend. Be safe!