All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I usually only find it hard to follow when Randy and Hans-Werner get into a friendly debate

Sorry about that. Readers and participants have a very wide range of interests and understanding, so a typical reefer may find some discussion more basic than they want and some more complicated.

 

[rishma]

Sorry about that. Readers and participants have a very wide range of interests and understanding, so a typical reefer may find some discussion more basic than they want and some more complicated.

That was meant to be a joke! Obviously a fail. I think it’s great.

 

[rsach]

I have been using AFR for over a year, yes it's convenient but as mentioned in this discussion, it's hard to control individual parameters, ALK has been under control but CA & MG recently started creeping up and is at 590 & 1605. I am going to switch to Randy's 3 part recipe, will probably start dosing for Alkalinity and will wait to dose the other two parts until CA and Mg values come down. Just got my advanced replacement trident so I am ready to go.

 

[rishma]

do you do water changes?

I have been using AFR for over a year, yes it's convenient but as mentioned in this discussion, it's hard to control individual parameters, ALK has been under control but CA & MG recently started creeping up and is at 590 & 1605. I am going to switch to Randy's 3 part recipe, will probably start dosing for Alkalinity and will wait to dose the other two parts until CA and Mg values come down. Just got my advanced replacement trident so I am ready to go.

 

[GARRIGA]

I have been using AFR for over a year, yes it's convenient but as mentioned in this discussion, it's hard to control individual parameters, ALK has been under control but CA & MG recently started creeping up and is at 590 & 1605. I am going to switch to Randy's 3 part recipe, will probably start dosing for Alkalinity and will wait to dose the other two parts until CA and Mg values come down. Just got my advanced replacement trident so I am ready to go.

Wouldn't it make more sense to perform a WC to bring elevated levels down along with normal consumption then resume AFR based on calcium vs alkalinity then add additional alkalinity as needed? That's how Lou recommends it and seems your tank has higher demand for alkalinity than calcium. Usually as a result of nitrification and WC throwing base out vs carbon dosing or algae replacing that.

 

[rsach]

do you do water changes?

I wasn't doing it for several months (6+), but have started doing bi-weekly water changes since the past two months.

 

[rsach]

Wouldn't it make more sense to perform a WC to bring elevated levels down along with normal consumption then resume AFR based on calcium vs alkalinity then add additional alkalinity as needed? That's how Lou recommends it and seems your tank has higher demand for alkalinity than calcium. Usually as a result of nitrification and WC throwing base out vs carbon dosing or algae replacing that.

Yes, i started doing water changes for the past two months. AFR was working fine until I had a dino outbreak, and the challenge was to maintain Alk and while lowering CA and MG. I will try switching to the 3 parts and maybe once the parameters stabilize I can give AFR a shot again since I have half a container of the AFR powder left.

 

[GARRIGA]

Another option is stop throwing water out and dose carbon plus alkalinity additive such as soda ash and allow tank to consume excess calcium and magnesium. Dosing carbon will return base lost during nitrification therefore less alkalinity additive required and tank will naturally reduce the other two components. Once stabilize resume water changes and preferred two part or AFR.

 

[rsach]

Another option is stop throwing water out and dose carbon plus alkalinity additive such as soda ash and allow tank to consume excess calcium and magnesium. Dosing carbon will return base lost during nitrification therefore less alkalinity additive required and tank will naturally reduce the other two components. Once stabilize resume water changes and preferred two part or AFR.

I am currently running GFO and a Algae reactor to keep nitrates and phosphates in check, should I keep them on while dosing carbon?

 

[GARRIGA]

I am currently running GFO and a Algae reactor to keep nitrates and phosphates in check, should I keep them on while dosing carbon?

Wasn't aware you were running GFO and algae. I wouldn't dose carbon in that case but I'd consider stopping GFO and allowing algae to convert nitrates to alkalinity by returning base lost during nitrification.

Thought you were throwing alkalinity away and why having to constantly dose it. The algae if large enough should be raising alkalinity as it removes nitrates. I'd still cut out water changes until everything settles out because it seems odd your alkalinity is dropping then so much quicker than calcium. I'd continue dosing alkalinity additive to maintain that and see how that goes including confirming test kits are accurate. I maintained my alkalinity without water changes for 2-1/2 years purely on first carbon dosing and later diy Fuge/ATS and no alkalinity additive dosing.

Not saying one shouldn't change water but might want to first confirm why alkalinity dropping more proportional to calcium and especially if algae solving nitrates.

 

[rsach]

Wasn't aware you were running GFO and algae. I wouldn't dose carbon in that case but I'd consider stopping GFO and allowing algae to convert nitrates to alkalinity by returning base lost during nitrification.

Thought you were throwing alkalinity away and why having to constantly dose it. The algae if large enough should be raising alkalinity as it removes nitrates. I'd still cut out water changes until everything settles out because it seems odd your alkalinity is dropping then so much quicker than calcium. I'd continue dosing alkalinity additive to maintain that and see how that goes including confirming test kits are accurate. I maintained my alkalinity without water changes for 2-1/2 years purely on first carbon dosing and later diy Fuge/ATS and no alkalinity additive dosing.

Not saying one shouldn't change water but might want to first confirm why alkalinity dropping more proportional to calcium and especially if algae solving nitrates.

My only fear is that if I stop GFO, the phosphates will creep up, I got it down to 0.1 but without GFO they will end up at around 0.4-0.6 I'm hoping that eventually CA level off. I have tested with multiple test kits and just got a newly serviced trident, and checked the levels post calibration, MG seems normal at 1424, but CA remains high at 638.

 

[GARRIGA]

My only fear is that if I stop GFO, the phosphates will creep up, I got it down to 0.1 but without GFO they will end up at around 0.4-0.6 I'm hoping that eventually CA level off. I have tested with multiple test kits and just got a newly serviced trident, and checked the levels post calibration, MG seems normal at 1424, but CA remains high at 638.

Large enough Fuge wouldn't solve PO4?

I'd check with Randy on calcium because that seems really high and especially after calibration. I'm not well educated on the chemistry but know enough that just looks wrong although did get mine that high because I was running tap experiments and wanted to see how algae removed metals plus curious how high calcium could go. Your alk being low and Mg seeming right doesn't correlate with calcium as I understand it. Thought I had read earlier you were in the 500s.

 

[rsach]

Large enough Fuge wouldn't solve PO4?

I'd check with Randy on calcium because that seems really high and especially after calibration. I'm not well educated on the chemistry but know enough that just looks wrong although did get mine that high because I was running tap experiments and wanted to see how algae removed metals plus curious how high calcium could go. Your alk being low and Mg seeming right doesn't correlate with calcium as I understand it. Thought I had read earlier you were in the 500s.

A large fuge would help with a nitrates but not as much with PO4, at least that's what I've read. Yes, CA has been slowly creeping up. I just stopped AFR 3 days ago. I had posted on a different forum about high CA and Randy commented about AFR to be a known cause of this.

 

[GARRIGA]

A large fuge would help with a nitrates but not as much with PO4, at least that's what I've read. Yes, CA has been slowly creeping up. I just stopped AFR 3 days ago. I had posted on a different forum about high CA and Randy commented about AFR to be a known cause of this.

I've been able to drop PO4 with carbon dosing and algae. Perhaps run the algae 24/7 and cutoff GFO to stabilize alkalinity while tank consumption drops calcium although that also depends on how fast your tank consumes calcium. Might have no choice but several water changes to drop it unless Randy says that high isn't a concern. He's the man when it comes to these variables. I'm just not one that resorts to quick fixes unless absolutely necessary. Especially absent knowing why your alkalinity dropping faster than calcium.

I'm not speaking for Randy but perhaps he's eluding to the fact that if you dose AFR off alkalinity and that's consumed quicker than calcium then latter will continue to build up beyond daily consumption. Why I keep going back to trying to figure out why alkalinity consumed considerably faster than calcium plus AFR doses Mg based on calcium therefore if that rises then shouldn't we expect Mg to rise accordingly? Yet your levels for that seem reasonable.

Any remote chance calcium measures inaccurate?

 

[Troylee]

My only fear is that if I stop GFO, the phosphates will creep up, I got it down to 0.1 but without GFO they will end up at around 0.4-0.6 I'm hoping that eventually CA level off. I have tested with multiple test kits and just got a newly serviced trident, and checked the levels post calibration, MG seems normal at 1424, but CA remains high at 638.

That’s weird.. I haven’t been able to do water changes because of the extreme heat in Vegas and mine gets high but tops off around 550 at the most and averages about 525

 

[areefer01]

That’s weird.. I haven’t been able to do water changes because of the extreme heat in Vegas and mine gets high but tops off around 550 at the most and averages about 525

Even if I slack off on water changes I do not see much, if any, change to calcium. I try to do a 20 gallon water change every 2 to 3 weeks but sometimes there is a larger gap between them. No reason other than to get some old water out.

 

[rsach]

I've been able to drop PO4 with carbon dosing and algae. Perhaps run the algae 24/7 and cutoff GFO to stabilize alkalinity while tank consumption drops calcium although that also depends on how fast your tank consumes calcium. Might have no choice but several water changes to drop it unless Randy says that high isn't a concern. He's the man when it comes to these variables. I'm just not one that resorts to quick fixes unless absolutely necessary. Especially absent knowing why your alkalinity dropping faster than calcium.

I'm not speaking for Randy but perhaps he's eluding to the fact that if you dose AFR off alkalinity and that's consumed quicker than calcium then latter will continue to build up beyond daily consumption. Why I keep going back to trying to figure out why alkalinity consumed considerably faster than calcium plus AFR doses Mg based on calcium therefore if that rises then shouldn't we expect Mg to rise accordingly? Yet your levels for that seem reasonable.

Any remote chance calcium measures inaccurate?

I will probably go that route (Algae+Carbon dosing) soon as it will be cheaper too and I don't mind sharing some of that vodka with my fish..lol.
I have tried salifert test and also my old Trident and the advanced replacement one show high CA values, so the chances of a testing error is slim.

 

[rsach]

Even if I slack off on water changes I do not see much, if any, change to calcium. I try to do a 20 gallon water change every 2 to 3 weeks but sometimes there is a larger gap between them. No reason other than to get some old water out.

I think something went off after I was dealing with dinos and was dosing water glass.

 

[GARRIGA]

I will probably go that route (Algae+Carbon dosing) soon as it will be cheaper too and I don't mind sharing some of that vodka with my fish..lol.
I have tried salifert test and also my old Trident and the advanced replacement one show high CA values, so the chances of a testing error is slim.

I’d go easy on the carbon if you have algae. Let that work its magic first then dose carbon if needed and as needed. Think less being more.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

There is no need to be frustrated. To repeat what I said, I think AFR is a wonderful product. It not only works, it clearly works very well. There are countless beautiful tanks that use it, and it’s outright silly to say it does not work!

The purpose of my post was to stress education and the importance of understanding the products “potential” limitations:

1. The potential for Calcium / Alkalinity imbalance over time
2. The potential for trace element imbalance over time
3. The limit of maximum daily dosage of 25 ml per 26 gallon
4. Users should really do WC’s to improve long term chemical balance

These topics have been discussed ad nauseam. If you disagree these are valid concerns, then so be it.

There was a time when I personally experienced calcium / alkalinity imbalance, and I have personally experienced trace element imbalance. I know first hand that these issues can harm a tank, and even kill corals. This is my opinion based on personal experience. If you disagree with any of this, then so be it. I respect your opinion, and I have no intention or desire to change your mind.

Again, the point of my original post is simply that users should research the product, and be educated about the product before using it.

That is all I have to say about this topic.

These are issues that probably have more to do with yours tank’s specific use of the elements (and KH) more than what the product itself offers. I would expect imbalances from user overdose or being heavy sps. In any event, it’s an easy fix as long as you test.