All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?

[rtparty]

It’s not an insult. It’s just a fact. There are a lot, and I mean a lot of brand new reefers on AFR. I think the name “All For Reef” draws them right in.

I think others just like the thought and simplicity of an AIO product. I’ve tried many of them, and none of them have worked well for me. They just lack the control needed wanted.

There are just as many "old timers" using AFR. To claim in any way it is "for newbies" as a fact is just wrong.

Fixed your final statment as well

 

[rishma]

OK, for you I will retract that statement. MOST users of that product are indeed newbies. But I agree… not all.

There are just as many "old timers" using AFR. To claim in any way it is "for newbies" as a fact is just wrong.

Fixed your final statment as well

Indeed, I qualify as an old timer now I think after reefing for nearly 3 decades. I like AFR. I mostly use Kalk because I like the pH boost but also dose AFR to maintain levels. Occasional ICP shows I am pretty good shape. I have also used APR by itself without Kalk. It’s a very good product. Perfect for every reef? No such thing. I don’t really understand the purpose of this whole debate. Lots of successful tanks with AFR and those using other methods. It’s trade offs with any method.

AFR is a stand alone product in many tanks if dosed to maintain alk and one is doing normal water changes. There will be a long slow calcium rise, but water changes will mitigate that effect over time.

I know you are focused on trace elements being at some predetermined level, but the evidence for that is fairly weak, and lots of folks are quite happy with AFR along.

Regarding calcium build up….i have seen this in my tank. Probably from both Kalk and AFR. It’s not a major issue, but I wonder why AFR is a little high in Ca. Kalk is just a natural artifact I suppose.

I assume my water changes keep it in check, but it would be nice if it stayed balanced over time.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Regarding calcium build up….i have seen this in my tank. Probably from both Kalk and AFR. It’s not a major issue, but I wonder why AFR is a little high in Ca. Kalk is just a natural artifact I suppose.

I assume my water changes keep it in check, but it would be nice if it stayed balanced over time.

Yes, with kalkwasser it is an unavoidable aspect of the chemistry, but TM designed AFR to have exactly as much calcium per alk as kalkwasser, as opposed to what is actually consumed, which is always at least a little less due to incorporation of magnesium and strontium into calcium carbonate deposited in place of some of the calcium.

There is no perfect alk to calcium ratio, since magnesium incorporation is higher in coralline than in most corals, but assuming none is also not correct.

My recipes try to strike a middle ground (including my RMM method recommendations), but water changes will always help mitigate such issues since it cannot always be perfect. .

Where can I find the dosing calculator for Tropic Marin All for Reef (AFR)?

I remember it used to be at the bottom of the tropic marin site but it's no longer there. Does anyone know where I can find it again? My alk is currently 6.7 and I want to raise it to 8.0 (tank volume is 95 gallons). The instructions only say to add 5ml per 25 gallons but I have no idea how...

www.reef2reef.com

The concentrations for All-For-Reef solutions, no matter whether bought as solution or self-prepared from All-For-Reef Powder, are 43000 ppm calcium, Ca, 6000 dKH per liter alkalinity (as alkalinity-precursors), 1900 ppm magnesium, Mg, 780 ppm strontium, Sr and 34 ppm iodine, I.

That gives alk to calcium of 43,000 ppm/6,000 dKh = 7.17 ppm/dKH
For kalkwasser, there is 20 ppm per 2.8 dKh = 7.14 dKH

Real consumption is typically 18-20 ppm calcium per 2.8 dKH = 6.4-7.14 ppm/dKH

 

[areefer01]

Regarding calcium build up….i have seen this in my tank. Probably from both Kalk and AFR. It’s not a major issue, but I wonder why AFR is a little high in Ca. Kalk is just a natural artifact I suppose.

I assume my water changes keep it in check, but it would be nice if it stayed balanced over time.

I wonder if that is due to the use of Kalkwasser? I do not use anything other than All For Reef and seem to have a consistent Ca trend. My current dose of All For Reef is 90 ml/day.

Edit: I said I was tapping out...I guess I can't let go.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wonder if that is due to the use of Kalkwasser? I do not use anything other than All For Reef and seem to have a consistent Ca trend. My current dose of All For Reef is 90 ml/day.

Edit: I said I was tapping out...I guess I can't let go.

The kalk and AFR alk to calcium ratio is the same. Water changes reduce the calcium rise. In my tank, using kalk only, it leveled out calcium at about 472 ppm, which is higher than the salt mix, but not any sort of problem.

 

[Reefahholic]

I don't ever dose traces. Ever. Except what my new traces that are in the calcium reactor media and what's in one gallon a day WC.
My corals are still growing regardless.

They will grow I just don’t think it’s optimal. For me the growth is slower, and that if you’re not dosing certain trace elements, you could see more losses because the corals don’t have the pathogenic resistance. One thing I would really keep an eye on (that’s not a trace element) is potassium. I’ve seen several people start losing coral when potassium is low or high.

 

[rishma]

Yes, with kalkwasser it is an unavoidable aspect of the chemistry, but TM designed AFR to have exactly as much calcium per alk as kalkwasser, as opposed to what is actually consumed, which is always at least a little less due to incorporation of magnesium and strontium into calcium carbonate deposited in place of some of the calcium.

There is no perfect alk to calcium ratio, since magnesium incorporation is higher in coralline than in most corals, but assuming none is also not correct.

My recipes try to strike a middle ground (including my RMM method recommendations), but water changes will always help mitigate such issues since it cannot always be perfect. .

Where can I find the dosing calculator for Tropic Marin All for Reef (AFR)?

I remember it used to be at the bottom of the tropic marin site but it's no longer there. Does anyone know where I can find it again? My alk is currently 6.7 and I want to raise it to 8.0 (tank volume is 95 gallons). The instructions only say to add 5ml per 25 gallons but I have no idea how...

www.reef2reef.com

The concentrations for All-For-Reef solutions, no matter whether bought as solution or self-prepared from All-For-Reef Powder, are 43000 ppm calcium, Ca, 6000 dKH per liter alkalinity (as alkalinity-precursors), 1900 ppm magnesium, Mg, 780 ppm strontium, Sr and 34 ppm iodine, I.

That gives alk to calcium of 43,000 ppm/6,000 dKh = 7.17 ppm/dKH
For kalkwasser, there is 20 ppm per 2.8 dKh = 7.14 dKH

Real consumption is typically 18-20 ppm calcium per 2.8 dKH = 6.4-7.14 ppm/dKH

Thank you for that explanation. Maybe our TM friends can adjust future batches of AFR for lower calcium

I use the RMM method. It’s my most consistent test result

 

[Singspot]

Hi!

I’ve been on the AFR train for about a year now (five tanks, different sizes). I don’t do water changes.

I dose manganese and iron separately because I have lots of gonis and this was a sticky point in my research to keep healthy gonis. Sent in an ICP test recently and found that manganese and iron are exactly where they need to be so the dosing plus the AFR is working as expected but my iodine was pretty low. Started dosing iodine and man the response was amazing. Just overnight all of my LPS were full Oder and extending more than they had been.

Moral of my story: once your tank has been going for a few months, send in an ICP to understand consumption within your tank in the event that you’re keeping certain species that are depleting some elements selectively.

I use AFR too. Love it.

What additive do you use to add Manganese, Iron and Iodine?

Can you share some specifics or point to online info, I need to add those too.

Do you test Manganese, Iron, Iodine by yourself too, using what test kit?

 

[Reefahholic]

But you are not being cool with the continued use of newbie and fact statement.

Oh man, if you got the amount of messages I do from new reefers about AFR. It would boggle your mind. It’s probably like 80:20. If it makes you happy, I’ll try to quit using that word.

Look - I think you and I would have a good time over a beverage or two. I do. Same hobby, passion, etc.

We most likely would, but I don’t drink. ;-)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you for that explanation. Maybe our TM friends can adjust future batches of AFR for lower calcium

I use the RMM method. It’s my most consistent test result

It just occurred to me perhaps why they do it. In a mix like this, they would have to add some sort of alk additive that didn't incorporate calcium. They cannot use bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide, because those will cause precipitation issues. They'd need to use something like sodium formate or magnesium formate, and maybe they just didn't want to have to source another organic alk material at suitable purity.

 

[Reefahholic]

It just occurred to me perhaps why they do it. In a mix like this, they would have to add some sort of alk additive that didn't incorporate calcium. They cannot use bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide, because those will cause precipitation issues. They'd need to use something like sodium formate or magnesium formate, and maybe they just didn't want to have to source another organic alk material at suitable purity.

Probably exactly why, and the cost.

 

[areefer01]

We most likely would, but I don’t drink. ;-)

That is why I said beverage. It could be a soda, coffee, tea, etc. I do not assume nor judge. It could also be over a piece of cheese cake

Hope your day is well.

 

[rishma]

Oh man, if you got the amount of messages I do from new reefers about AFR. It would boggle your mind. It’s probably like 80:20. If it makes you happy, I’ll try to quit using that word.



We most likely would, but I don’t drink. ;-)

Maybe the new reefers are just the ones with questions!

 

[Reefahholic]

That is why I said beverage. It could be a soda, coffee, tea, etc. I do not assume nor judge. It could also be over a piece of cheese cake

Hope your day is well.

I’m a coffee addict. I’m trying to quit the addiction, but it’s just too good. I can find a coffee anywhere!

Pay no attention to the bottom left-hand corner of this picture. Haha.

 

[Reefahholic]

Maybe the new reefers are just the ones with questions!

Possibly! I think what frustrates me the most is that newer reefers who are using AIO’s (a ton), can’t seem to understand that in a new system that’s not established (let’s say under 1 year), many elements will run wild, because the consumption may not quite be there yet. Instead of stopping the AIO, they want to combine it with another method as if it will make AIO (or the other method) work that much better). In their mind, they believe AIO is magic unicorn juice. Probably due to long YouTube promos and social media influencers. It’s almost like they’re brain washed. They absolutely refuse to stop the AIO initially until they start seeing how wild some of these elements are running out of target range. It literally takes overdosing and poor tank conditions for the light bulb to pop on.

If the entire chemistry is already being handled, it’s useless to use two different methods. For example…if you’re already dosing Iron, and the other method supplements Iron, but you’re already correcting for Iron deficiency, why do you need more Iron? Short answer…you don’t. That’s not rocket science, but apparently some can’t seem to understand. There’s
only a few scenario’s where it would seem logical to me. One would be if you have a large thriving system and you want a base soup and the base product was very reasonably priced (none are). The other would be if you’re just a lazy reefer with a tank full of softies, and you don’t look at ICP data.

There’s also an issue AIO’s when you combine/mix multiple trace elements in one bottle. This isn’t ideal and typically doesn’t work very well. There are certain chemical reactions and oxidation processes that can occur. The stability of the elements themselves can be affected. Let me give one good example. The carrier solution (not all water based). Some carrier solutions are partially muriatic acids, sulfides, chlorides. Some are highly purified water enhanced with other stabilizing fluids. These carrier solutions or fluids circumvent the oxidation into other stages. Some of other stages can be highly toxic. For example, Cr is stage 4, and will remain in stage 4 as long as it’s not mixed with water. If the stabilizer is below the required levels, Cr 4 can oxidize into stage 6-7 or even stage 8. Cr at stag 8 is highly toxic to any marine life and also humans.

There’s another issue with purity. Many companies will compromise when it puts money in their own pockets. Others may not want to, but if availability is limited, they’ll do it anyway. A lot of elements that are being sold are poor quality, and the bioavailability is lacking. Many elements on eBay or Amazon are far different than what’s being dosed into my system. Although is did find a decent ammonium product.

This is why I’m just not a fan of AIO’s, but to each his own I guess. Some people don’t test at all, and some perplexed as to why their system is always having issues.

 

[Doctorgori]

OK, for you I will retract that statement. MOST users of that product are indeed newbies. But I agree… not all.

Data please…..

It’s not an insult. It’s just a fact. There are a lot, and I mean a lot of brand new reefers on AFR. I think the name “All For Reef” draws them right in.

Stats, sales data gimme sumthin

Can you please provide the information that you are using as evidence or thing proving it to be true? If not, then you need to say "in your opinion".

I was gonna say the same…from now on Im asking the questions here LOL

But you are not being cool with the continued use of newbie and fact statement.

it’s called throwing shade

There are just as many "old timers" using AFR. To claim in any way it is "for newbies" as a fact is just wrong.

I have heard from “Top Men” that AFR sales run in tandem with sales of compound W, preparation H and the good ole “Blue pills”

Oh man, if you got the amount of messages I do from new reefers about AFR. It would boggle your mind. It’s probably like 80:20. If it makes you happy, I’ll try to quit using that word.

that ain’t exactly solid data

 

[rtparty]

Data please…..

Stats, sales data gimme sumthin

I was gonna say the same…from now on Im asking the questions here LOL

it’s called throwing shade

I have heard from “Top Men” that AFR sales run in tandem with sales of compound W, preparation H and the good ole “Blue pills”

that ain’t exactly solid data

Yes, there is an old timers goodie bag sent out with each order of AFR. I just want the collectible “get off my reef” magnet in my next monthly order.

 

[rishma]

I have heard from “Top Men” that AFR sales run in tandem with sales of compound W, preparation H and the good ole “Blue pills”

Solid

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes, there is an old timers goodie bag sent out with each order of AFR. I just want the collectible “get off my reef” magnet in my next monthly order.

With all the donuts you bring Ryan at BRS trying to get on those live streams, you should be able to receive a free magnet from Tropic Marin’s team. lol

 

[rtparty]

With all the donuts you bring Ryan at BRS trying to get on those live streams, you should be able to receive a free magnet from Tropic Marin’s team. lol

Lol

More unjustified claims with no data to back them up. Par for the course these days