All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?

[rishma]

I guess the idea that we should do water changes to keep things in balance has been part of my reef keeping forever. That hasn’t changed with any of the products or methods I have used over the years. I know there has always been a movement to run tanks without water changes (I remember when ATS were the miracle method). But I never followed any of those approaches. Water changes are not that hard because I’ve never kept a gigantic tank.

So this observation that elements can go out of balance over time and need water changed to correct them doesn’t bother me. I have mostly seen that with calcium in my tanks, but I have not seen any coral issues as a result. Probably because I am fairly consistent with WC.

 

[areefer01]

I want to say thank you for your input but there was really no input.

Was my thought exactly.

 

[Glenner’sreef]

Okay? This has been quite the exchange of ideas, opinions and convictions. From reef enthusiasts to pros and beyond, I feel as I sort it all out that it was overall enlightening, certainly educational and definitely for the most part respectfully.
Today marks day three of my tank’s All for Reef journey. And having processed 142 posts regarding AFR, my confidence level is stronger for it. Appreciate everyone's input and in the months to come may post a sequel. I’m sure it will be positive. Thx again. Glenn

 

[Reefahholic]

What risks?
What would lead the product to not work anymore? What kind of issues? What undesirable outcome? This post is frustrating. All this info but no info.

What complexities?

 

[Reefahholic]

There is no need to be frustrated. To repeat what I said, I think AFR is a wonderful product. It not only works, it clearly works very well. There are countless beautiful tanks that use it, and it’s outright silly to say it does not work!

The purpose of my post was to stress education and the importance of understanding the products “potential” limitations:

1. The potential for Calcium / Alkalinity imbalance over time
2. The potential for trace element imbalance over time
3. The limit of maximum daily dosage of 25 ml per 26 gallon
4. Users should really do WC’s to improve long term chemical balance

These topics have been discussed ad nauseam. If you disagree these are valid concerns, then so be it.

There was a time when I personally experienced calcium / alkalinity imbalance, and I have personally experienced trace element imbalance. I know first hand that these issues can harm a tank, and even kill corals. This is my opinion based on personal experience. If you disagree with any of this, then so be it. I respect your opinion, and I have no intention or desire to change your mind.

Again, the point of my original post is simply that users should research the product, and be educated about the product before using it.

That is all I have to say about this topic.

It’s a Cult-like brainwashing bro. Many can’t understand that all AIO’s have issues. Not just AFR. They will continue their attacks, but anybody that’s been in the hobby for a while understands the problems that stem from any AIO solution.

Prime example below:

 

[Reefahholic]

Okay? This has been quite the exchange of ideas, opinions and convictions. From reef enthusiasts to pros and beyond, I feel as I sort it all out that it was overall enlightening, certainly educational and definitely for the most part respectfully.
Today marks day three of my tank’s All for Reef journey. And having processed 142 posts regarding AFR, my confidence level is stronger for it. Appreciate everyone's input and in the months to come may post a sequel. I’m sure it will be positive. Thx again. Glenn

AIO’s work better as a base for a thriving system that can outrun the ratios in the bottles. Doesn’t work so well in younger systems that aren’t very established yet. The consumption isn’t there for many of the elements. The problem is that the majority of users have newer systems.

However, even in older established systems there’s still issues that can influence some elements depending on different things happening in a reef that slow down consumption. This forces the user of any AIO to reduce the dose or even stop it. Then you reduce or stop everything else in that bottle. Not ideal!

 

[Garf]

It’s a Cult-like brainwashing bro. Many can’t understand that all AIO’s have issues. Not just AFR. They will continue their attacks, but anybody that’s been in the hobby for a while understands the problems that stem from any AIO solution.

Prime example below:

But everything has issues that require a resolution, surely?

 

[Reefahholic]

But everything has issues that require a resolution, surely?

Of course, but some much more than others.

 

[Glenner’sreef]

AIO’s work better as a base for a thriving system that can outrun the ratios in the bottles. Doesn’t work so well in younger systems that aren’t very established yet. The consumption isn’t there for many of the elements. The problem is that the majority of users have newer systems.

However, even in older established systems there’s still issues that can influence some elements depending on different things happening in a reef that slow down consumption. This forces the user of any AIO to reduce the dose or even stop it. Then you reduce or stop everything else in that bottle. Not ideal!

So if an issue arises in my established tank. And I’m forced to reduce or stop the dose, how is that any different from B Ionic 2 part that I never reduced or stopped. Except to change over to AFR. Lol

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Well... I tried to read through all eight pages of this and was surprised to find that I use AFR in a different way. I guess it was an evolution, but it is where I am now.
I will explain and use my 40g SPS dominant tank as an example.
I dose 28ml of AFR daily and 18ml of Alk and 15ml of B-ionic.
I know AFR is designed to replenish Alk and Cal and trace in the exact proportions of NSW, so why am I adding the 2 part of B-ionic? Because that is my tweek. My tank is always is an evolving, growing, living thing. Corals that I started with that are fast growing to fill the tank, I am slowly replacing with slower growing corals and maybe some fancy pants ones. Last month I ripped out a colony of JF teal birds nest that took up the whole back wall. Another time I took out a stylo that was as thick as my wrist because it was shading to much. If you take out that much coral, it will change your consumption. So, 28ml of AFR is my baseline, then via testing, I will add or subtract A and B of my two part. As far as my Trace goes, I will add a bit of A or K as needed.
This method works for me.

 

[Glenner’sreef]

Well... I tried to read through all eight pages of this and was surprised to find that I use AFR in a different way. I guess it was an evolution, but it is where I am now.
I will explain and use my 40g SPS dominant tank as an example.
I dose 28ml of AFR daily and 18ml of Alk and 15ml of B-ionic.
I know AFR is designed to replenish Alk and Cal and trace in the exact proportions of NSW, so why am I adding the 2 part of B-ionic? Because that is my tweek. My tank is always is an evolving, growing, living thing. Corals that I started with that are fast growing to fill the tank, I am slowly replacing with slower growing corals and maybe some fancy pants ones. Last month I ripped out a colony of JF teal birds nest that took up the whole back wall. Another time I took out a stylo that was as thick as my wrist because it was shading to much. If you take out that much coral, it will change your consumption. So, 28ml of AFR is my baseline, then via testing, I will add or subtract A and B of my two part. As far as my Trace goes, I will add a bit of A or K as needed.
This method works for me.

Is your B Ionic providing something that AFR doesn’t? Or are you just not wanting to increase your AFR?

 

[Garf]

I know AFR is designed to replenish Alk and Cal and trace in the exact proportions of NSW, so why am I adding the 2 part of B-ionic?

Absolutely sensible to have multiple sources. Just adds a little troubleshooting complexity.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Is your B Ionic providing something that AFR doesn’t? Or are you just not wanting to increase your AFR?

Well, it is more of a fine tuning thing. Depending on where my tank is at, I can add or subtract calcium or alk or trace. Fast growing corals will suck up a lot of elements. I swear I would trim off a colony of birds nest every two weeks. Where as I have a couple frags that are over a year old that may have grown only a inch. So if overall my consumption was up I would up the AFR and then fine tune again with the two part.

 

[Reefahholic]

So if an issue arises in my established tank. And I’m forced to reduce or stop the dose, how is that any different from B Ionic 2 part that I never reduced or stopped. Except to change over to AFR. Lol

It’s a little different. ESV B ionic is one of the only true 2-parts on the market. It also has less traces, and the ratios aren’t as aggressive. Less chance of interference, but still similar to the AIO’s. The Mg is in the Ca component bottle, but additional Mg is usually required that you buy separately.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well, it is more of a fine tuning thing.

Bingo! Hehe.

 

[rishma]

Well... I tried to read through all eight pages of this and was surprised to find that I use AFR in a different way. I guess it was an evolution, but it is where I am now.
I will explain and use my 40g SPS dominant tank as an example.
I dose 28ml of AFR daily and 18ml of Alk and 15ml of B-ionic.
I know AFR is designed to replenish Alk and Cal and trace in the exact proportions of NSW, so why am I adding the 2 part of B-ionic? Because that is my tweek. My tank is always is an evolving, growing, living thing. Corals that I started with that are fast growing to fill the tank, I am slowly replacing with slower growing corals and maybe some fancy pants ones. Last month I ripped out a colony of JF teal birds nest that took up the whole back wall. Another time I took out a stylo that was as thick as my wrist because it was shading to much. If you take out that much coral, it will change your consumption. So, 28ml of AFR is my baseline, then via testing, I will add or subtract A and B of my two part. As far as my Trace goes, I will add a bit of A or K as needed.
This method works for me.

Lovely tank. Do you add both parts of b-ionic equally? I am not familiar with b-ionic beyond being a 2 part. I am asking because I have considered adding an alkalinity supplement because my Kalk and AFR overdose calcium. I haven’t done it because then I’d be dosing 3 things, which seems a bit silly because I could just use another system (2-part/ balling) and I don’t have any really issue to fix…must resist tinkering. About half my alkalinity comes from Kalk and the other half from AFR. Both over dose calcium.

 

[Reefahholic]

Lovely tank. Do you add both parts of b-ionic equally? I am not familiar with b-ionic beyond being a 2 part. I am asking because I have considered adding an alkalinity supplement because my Kalk and AFR overdose calcium. I haven’t done it because then I’d be dosing 3 things, which seems a bit silly because I could just use another system (2-part/ balling) and I don’t have any really issue to fix…must resist tinkering. About half my alkalinity comes from Kalk and the other half from AFR. Both over dose calcium.

I can familiarize you with ESV B-Ionic from Bob Stark Himself. Yes, just like many here I’ve used the AIO’s, and have been down many rabbit holes the past.

Anyway, you probably won’t get a more detailed explanation of B-Ionic than what you’ll read below. See below:



Hi Jared,

B-Ionic Calcium Buffer is a complete ionically balanced 2 part meaning the residual ions left behind (after the calcium and carbonate alkalinity dosed to an aquarium is removed by calcification) duplicate all the important major, minor, and trace elements of an artificial seawater mix in their correct ratios. The product was developed in 1995 to address the issue of a slow trend toward ionic imbalance when using just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate. In that situation the residual ions left behind after calcification would just be sodium and chloride. As salinity was corrected, the tank water would drift more and more towards just being a sodium chloride solution thereby lowering the concentration of some important elements. Water changes would slow down that process. In a nutshell, when you add equal amounts of our two components, you are adding highly concentrated, balanced amounts of calcium and alkalinity along with a pinch of an artificial seawater mix. With calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate additions, you are also adding highly concentrated calcium and alkalinity, but with a pinch of just sodium chloride instead. Given that, with B-Ionic 2 part all the important ions of an artificial seawater mix are being added daily (including magnesium) but there is no possibility of overdosing any of those residual ions as long as salinity is maintained. If the salinity of the system rises, and tank water must be removed and replaced with RO/DI water, then that is in essence a small water change where the salt mix was the residual ions of our 2 part. That small "water change" can be effective at helping to stabilize certain ions that tend to drop over time in addition to calcium and alkalinity. For example magnesium and potassium. Magnesium is going into the system as part of the residual seawater ions, but that addition may not be enough to keep up with the system's demands. Other ions may not be supplied in enough quantity with these residual ions, such as iodide, strontium, and the transition metals iron, manganese, and zinc. For this reason we have separate supplements for magnesium, iodide, strontium, and our Transition Elements additive which contains iron, manganese, and zinc). Our magnesium supplement is not a 3rd part of our B-Ionic 2 part, and should only be added as testing dictates. In the systems at ESV we test for magnesium once per month and find B-Ionic 2 part keeps the levels fairly stable so supplemental addition is only occasionally called for. Many hobbyists I speak with are surprised to hear this because some other products introduced later to the market are true 3 part systems where the magnesium is in a third component presumably because they use magnesium sulfate which would be incompatible in either the calcium component (calcium sulfate would precipitate) or the alkalinity component (magnesium carbonate would precipitate). We were able to simplify things and incorporate the magnesium and sulfate within the two parts by using different magnesium and sulfate salts that are compatible with the calcium and alkalinity components. Regarding concentrations you are correct, the alkalinity component is 2800 meq/Liter (7840 dKH). The calcium component is 62,752 mg/L. The magnesium in the two part is in the calcium component, and it's concentration is proprietary but remember, you can't overdose magnesium by using B-Ionic 2 part as long as the aquarium salinity is maintained because the magnesium ions are in the correct artificial seawater ratio with the other residual ions. If the magnesium does test low due to high demand (aquariums with a high bioload of coralline algae for example), we have a separate B-Ionic Magnesium supplement only to be used as needed. The concentration of that product is 36,000 ppm magnesium. I hope this info helps clear things up and thanks for your questions, kind words, and interest in the product. Next year B-Ionic Calcium Buffer turns 25 years old!


Best Regards,
Bob Stark


ESV Aquarium Products Inc.


—————————————————-


Hi Jared,


I'm glad the B-Ionic 2 Part is working out for you and thanks for spreading the word! You are correct in that the amount of certain elements provided by the product may not keep up with demand, although significant trace elements are added to our systems simply by feeding. Depending on how much of the 2 part is added, certain major elements can stay in the ballpark with the 2 part alone..like magnesium, potassium, and sulfate. Others, as you suggest, are probably not being added in sufficient quantity so we suggest once per week additions of our B-Ionic Strontium and B-Ionic Iodide. In addition, for tanks over 4 months old and more populated, we recommend daily additions of our B-Ionic Transition Elements which provide very low doses of Iron, Manganese, and Zinc. We also have a Transition Elements Plus product that supplies the same amounts of these elements but also adds citric acid and ascorbic acid for carbon dosing if the aquarist is battling higher nitrates. I'm not too keen on supplying trace elements which can be required by non calcifying inhabitants (macro algae and soft corals) based on calcification rates alone, but I see some of the logic behind it. My guess is the Red Sea Colors are probably safe to use with our B-Ionic, but don't know enough about their product line to say with absolute certainty. All of the above mentioned ESV additives, in addition to the 2 Part, have been formulated to fall a little under the radar of trace element overdose and based on our testing and feedback from customers who have run ICP, we are confident the dosages are safe. Hope this info helps and thanks again for using our products!


Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.

 

[rishma]

I can familiarize you with ESV B-Ionic from Bob Stark Himself. Yes, just like many here I’ve used the AIO’s, and have been down many rabbit holes the past.

Anyway, you probably won’t get a more detailed explanation of B-Ionic than what you’ll read below. See below:



Hi Jared,

B-Ionic Calcium Buffer is a complete ionically balanced 2 part meaning the residual ions left behind (after the calcium and carbonate alkalinity dosed to an aquarium is removed by calcification) duplicate all the important major, minor, and trace elements of an artificial seawater mix in their correct ratios. The product was developed in 1995 to address the issue of a slow trend toward ionic imbalance when using just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate. In that situation the residual ions left behind after calcification would just be sodium and chloride. As salinity was corrected, the tank water would drift more and more towards just being a sodium chloride solution thereby lowering the concentration of some important elements. Water changes would slow down that process. In a nutshell, when you add equal amounts of our two components, you are adding highly concentrated, balanced amounts of calcium and alkalinity along with a pinch of an artificial seawater mix. With calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate additions, you are also adding highly concentrated calcium and alkalinity, but with a pinch of just sodium chloride instead. Given that, with B-Ionic 2 part all the important ions of an artificial seawater mix are being added daily (including magnesium) but there is no possibility of overdosing any of those residual ions as long as salinity is maintained. If the salinity of the system rises, and tank water must be removed and replaced with RO/DI water, then that is in essence a small water change where the salt mix was the residual ions of our 2 part. That small "water change" can be effective at helping to stabilize certain ions that tend to drop over time in addition to calcium and alkalinity. For example magnesium and potassium. Magnesium is going into the system as part of the residual seawater ions, but that addition may not be enough to keep up with the system's demands. Other ions may not be supplied in enough quantity with these residual ions, such as iodide, strontium, and the transition metals iron, manganese, and zinc. For this reason we have separate supplements for magnesium, iodide, strontium, and our Transition Elements additive which contains iron, manganese, and zinc). Our magnesium supplement is not a 3rd part of our B-Ionic 2 part, and should only be added as testing dictates. In the systems at ESV we test for magnesium once per month and find B-Ionic 2 part keeps the levels fairly stable so supplemental addition is only occasionally called for. Many hobbyists I speak with are surprised to hear this because some other products introduced later to the market are true 3 part systems where the magnesium is in a third component presumably because they use magnesium sulfate which would be incompatible in either the calcium component (calcium sulfate would precipitate) or the alkalinity component (magnesium carbonate would precipitate). We were able to simplify things and incorporate the magnesium and sulfate within the two parts by using different magnesium and sulfate salts that are compatible with the calcium and alkalinity components. Regarding concentrations you are correct, the alkalinity component is 2800 meq/Liter (7840 dKH). The calcium component is 62,752 mg/L. The magnesium in the two part is in the calcium component, and it's concentration is proprietary but remember, you can't overdose magnesium by using B-Ionic 2 part as long as the aquarium salinity is maintained because the magnesium ions are in the correct artificial seawater ratio with the other residual ions. If the magnesium does test low due to high demand (aquariums with a high bioload of coralline algae for example), we have a separate B-Ionic Magnesium supplement only to be used as needed. The concentration of that product is 36,000 ppm magnesium. I hope this info helps clear things up and thanks for your questions, kind words, and interest in the product. Next year B-Ionic Calcium Buffer turns 25 years old!


Best Regards,
Bob Stark


ESV Aquarium Products Inc.


—————————————————-


Hi Jared,


I'm glad the B-Ionic 2 Part is working out for you and thanks for spreading the word! You are correct in that the amount of certain elements provided by the product may not keep up with demand, although significant trace elements are added to our systems simply by feeding. Depending on how much of the 2 part is added, certain major elements can stay in the ballpark with the 2 part alone..like magnesium, potassium, and sulfate. Others, as you suggest, are probably not being added in sufficient quantity so we suggest once per week additions of our B-Ionic Strontium and B-Ionic Iodide. In addition, for tanks over 4 months old and more populated, we recommend daily additions of our B-Ionic Transition Elements which provide very low doses of Iron, Manganese, and Zinc. We also have a Transition Elements Plus product that supplies the same amounts of these elements but also adds citric acid and ascorbic acid for carbon dosing if the aquarist is battling higher nitrates. I'm not too keen on supplying trace elements which can be required by non calcifying inhabitants (macro algae and soft corals) based on calcification rates alone, but I see some of the logic behind it. My guess is the Red Sea Colors are probably safe to use with our B-Ionic, but don't know enough about their product line to say with absolute certainty. All of the above mentioned ESV additives, in addition to the 2 Part, have been formulated to fall a little under the radar of trace element overdose and based on our testing and feedback from customers who have run ICP, we are confident the dosages are safe. Hope this info helps and thanks again for using our products!


Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.

Thanks for that! I guess I’d have to throw out my RMM kit if I used b-ionic

I have a years worth of AFR left so I will resist the tinker urge for a while longer…

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Lovely tank. Do you add both parts of b-ionic equally? I am not familiar with b-ionic beyond being a 2 part. I am asking because I have considered adding an alkalinity supplement because my Kalk and AFR overdose calcium. I haven’t done it because then I’d be dosing 3 things, which seems a bit silly because I could just use another system (2-part/ balling) and I don’t have any really issue to fix…must resist tinkering. About half my alkalinity comes from Kalk and the other half from AFR. Both over dose calcium.

Thanks! I add B-ionic, not usually equal but as my testing trends dictate, but it is close. The issue that can arise with your method is AFR is formulated to replace elements in the same portions as NSW so as it is a one step process. If you are using another step to control your Alk and Calcium (kalk) you are not replacing the total amount of trace elements in your system. You then have to add your missing trace (via testing [ICP-MS]).
If you are only running a low demand system, water changes and AFR is probably all you would ever need. In a high demand system, There maybe a change in the needs of your tank, that because it is a closed system, falls outside the NSW standard. ie; SPS may have different needs than softies or LPS. Every tank has different needs and even the same tank changes over time. There is no silver bullet unless you had a 100% turn over rate of NSW daily. I mean, AFR can get you 75-90% of the way there I believe, and for some that is fine for them. But to really achieve proper coral husbandry, the last little bit is just as important as the first bit.

 

[Reefahholic]

I guess none of you guys would be interested in this kind of data then.? @cliff Ramsdell made a nice spreadsheet to collect data from all the different salt brands using ICP-MS analysis. All the others before this have only been OES data. With all the cumulative data coming in from this, we’ll be able to see/monitor consistency within each brand. Can’t wait to see this thing grow.


Photo spreadsheet credit: Cliff Ramsdell