All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?

[exnisstech]

I did have to remove my roller filter, as seemingly clean fleece was used up in just a week or two.
Migh be an increase in bacteria. Anyone else had this issue?

I switched from ESV 2part to AFR 7 months ago on one of my tanks. I have a reefmat and haven't experienced what your describing.

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

Some aspects are similar, yes. Many of the chemical ideas we rely on may have a weak foundation if drilled down too deeply.

I expect that most chemicals in the salt mix are pure inorganic chemicals in one specific form, often likely chose for solubility (such as ferrous iron vs ferric iron which is much less soluble). Maybe not all, but most.

In the tank those eventually get bound to organics, most of which will help with solubility but may reduce bioavailability.

In some supplements, the metals may already be bound to organics. That's true in my iron DIY as well (ferrous gluconate) to keep them soluble.

Interesting. So with fresh synthetic seawater or trace element addition there could be a significant delay to when some elements transition into a form that is biologically available? Or is this something that is expected to happen quite rapidly?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting. So with fresh synthetic seawater or trace element addition there could be a significant delay to when some elements transition into a form that is biologically available? Or is this something that is expected to happen quite rapidly?

I think it more likely they transition to lower bioavailability.

Ron Shimek found this when I tried to explain copper binding to organics. He found the same amount of copper was much more toxic in raw seawater than aquarium water. Meaning the organics in the tank water lowered the bioavailability.

 

[Reefahholic]

That’s why I’m not a fan of AIO’s. A lot of issues can stem from mixing or watering down elements. Issues like chemical reactions/ precipitation or oxidation processes. People buy eBay Fluoride and think they’re gonna mix it up to save money. You better have a good source and know what you’re doing. Otherwise you’re dosing cheap garbage into your system. There’s other issues like microbiological contamination. Carrier solutions can be an issue. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, these solutions are typically made from muriatic acids, chlorides, sulfides, or highly purified water enhanced with other stabilizing agents that prevent oxidation into other stages that can be immensely toxic. If these elements oxidize into other stages, they can lose all of their bioavailability. At that point, the element you thought was beneficial is actually useless. I won’t even get into the scales needed to mix elements or proper dilution, but I can tell you that the equipment is not cheap! I don’t trust a lot of these companies. They will sometimes buy cheap garbage, and when availability is limited, they compromise and take whatever is available or saves them money. That can introduce contaminants, pollutants, or undesirable byproducts.

 

[Pod_01]

I don’t trust a lot of these companies.

If this is referring to trace elements I have to agree.
I tried few different companies and I am now following Randy’s suggestion, TM A and K elements seems to work the best for me.

I know they are all in one but with these two magic bottles I always seem to have best reef tank. Yup they are part of All For Reef at fixed ratio…
Other alternatives that I tried I had better colour but I also had sudden unexpected losses and the kicker was that ICP results looked real good. Hence suspicion that something is not always right with these bottles.

At this point I do have extensive collection of bottles and magic single elements bottles that I am not sure what to do with. Maybe they work as a fertilizer on my lawn!!!

 

[Reefahholic]

If this is referring to trace elements I have to agree.
I tried few different companies and I am now following Randy’s suggestion, TM A and K elements seems to work the best for me.

I know they are all in one but with these two magic bottles I always seem to have best reef tank. Yup they are part of All For Reef at fixed ratio…
Other alternatives that I tried I had better colour but I also had sudden unexpected losses and the kicker was that ICP results looked real good. Hence suspicion that something is not always right with these bottles.

At this point I do have extensive collection of bottles and magic single elements bottles that I am not sure what to do with. Maybe they work as a fertilizer on my lawn!!!

I would assume companies like ESV, Red Sea, Tropic Marin, or Aquaforest would be the best guys to get these AIO products from if one is set on going that direction. I’d pick the companies with the most experience, and have dedicated systems for testing. Run from the newer startup companies.

 

[Grumpyfish75]

I’d tag Cliff Ramsdell, but I’m unsure what his board name is here. I’ll send him a link to this post reply on FB.

Just added that data now. Only two entries currently. The one in sending in will also be TM Pro Reef, so I'd love to see some data from other brands if folks want to chip in.

 

[Zgraggen Bruno]

So I’ve read up and watched a ton of videos and of course Reef2reef has nicely put things into perspective regarding the switchover.

I’m just curious, what will I learn. What should I learn about this new direction. What have you learned that surprised you? Thanks in advance.

Hello
I was also using all for reef until recently. I switched to oceamo a month ago. A supply system with two liquids. The regulation of calcium vs kh was a disaster for me with all for reef. Increase kh, yes, but calcium goes through the roof... I think it can work for a small nano. I have a fully stocked REDSEA Peninsula 500, and the regulation didn't really work well with all for reef...

Greetings Bruno

 

[kilnakorr]

I switched from ESV 2part to AFR 7 months ago on one of my tanks. I have a reefmat and haven't experienced what your describing.

Thanks for the info.
Could have been something else and just a coincedence.
I'm up for a sump redesign in a couple of weeks and will try readding the filter.

 

[Reefahholic]

Just added that data now. Only two entries currently. The one in sending in will also be TM Pro Reef, so I'd love to see some data from other brands if folks want to chip in.

This is your name on here Cliff?

 

[jassojasso]

I have strange issue with AFR. I used it on my last tank for 1,5 years without problems. It usually kept the Ca level bit higher than alkalinity but that was not a problem. Tank was mostly LPS. Now I upgraded to new, bigger tank (total volume ~ 220 gallons) 4 months ago. I transferred all the live rock from old tank to new and in the last month I have had Ca and Mg levels creeping down so water changes alone are not sufficient. I mixed a new batch of AFR and started dosing very carefully (5 ml per day). The problem I have is that alkalinity shoots waaay up with just this miniscule amount of AFR. My alk consumption is very low still, about 0,5-1dKh / week but If I dose AFR for 3-4 days, alk will go from 8 to 10. Ca and Mg are stable, albeit still low (380 and 1150) which means it is doing its job since the levels have stabilized. However I cant up the AFR dose and have to stop dosing it mid week with alk creeping up.
What could be the issue?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have strange issue with AFR. I used it on my last tank for 1,5 years without problems. It usually kept the Ca level bit higher than alkalinity but that was not a problem. Tank was mostly LPS. Now I upgraded to new, bigger tank (total volume ~ 220 gallons) 4 months ago. I transferred all the live rock from old tank to new and in the last month I have had Ca and Mg levels creeping down so water changes alone are not sufficient. I mixed a new batch of AFR and started dosing very carefully (5 ml per day). The problem I have is that alkalinity shoots waaay up with just this miniscule amount of AFR. My alk consumption is very low still, about 0,5-1dKh / week but If I dose AFR for 3-4 days, alk will go from 8 to 10. Ca and Mg are stable, albeit still low (380 and 1150) which means it is doing its job since the levels have stabilized. However I cant up the AFR dose and have to stop dosing it mid week with alk creeping up.
What could be the issue?

I recommend always dosing AFR based on alk demand, not calcium. Trying to raise calcium will boost alk a lot.

That said, I think there's a testing issue of some sort as 5 mL of AFR will raise alk less than 0.1 dKH. 5 mL in 220 gallons will not boost alk from, 8 to 10 dKH in 4 days.

 

[Necrodaemus]

Started using it 2 years ago in a 25g lagoon and now continuing to use it in my 90g. Yes, most of the acros are still frags but they are puddling out and growing quick. Latest ICP showed everything right where it should be. pH peaks at 8.4 during the day and drops to 8.1 at night (recirculating CO2 scrubber). I’m currently at 50ml/day on AFR

 

[Reefahholic]

Started using it 2 years ago in a 25g lagoon and now continuing to use it in my 90g. Yes, most of the acros are still frags but they are puddling out and growing quick. Latest ICP showed everything right where it should be. pH peaks at 8.4 during the day and drops to 8.1 at night (recirculating CO2 scrubber). I’m currently at 50ml/day on AFR

Can you share your ICP. Thx!

 

[areefer01]

Can you share your ICP. Thx!

What are you looking for as it relates to their ICP?

 

[Reefahholic]

What are you looking for as it relates to their ICP?

Metallic Trace elements (ultra trace range)

 

[areefer01]

Metallic Trace elements (ultra trace range)

Thanks. Is there something specific or just curious. I don't recall them saying they had any issues.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thanks. Is there something specific or just curious. I don't recall them saying they had any issues.

Just want to see those elements. He said everything came out exactly where it should be, so I’d like to see the ICP. I’m guessing he probably sent OES, and all those values are likely (u.). If so, you can’t really say everything is where is should be, because a lot of the data is missing. The whole point of dosing AFR or any AIO is to supplement a lot of the missing or depleted ultra trace elements. If you’re not adding them in sufficient quantities, what’s the point.? A lot of them are gone within 24-48 hrs. We need to make sure the dose that’s being added is not only enough to keep them detectable, but also in a decent target range. These OES companies are setting their set-points at (0), because they know they don’t have the sensitivity to detect many of these elements. However, “don’t be alarmed,” everything is where it “should be.” Our set-points are “green flagged” at ZERO. Everything is fine! Heh!


OES is really a waste of time unless you’re only looking at main elements or traces with higher target ranges like Barium, Fluoride, Iodine, etc., but it’s useless for most ultra trace elements. You will not see them unless already overdosed, otherwise you will not see them at all. Elements like Selenium don’t even show up on OES until they’re around 8-10 ug/L. Tungsten is the same.

 

[areefer01]

Just want to see those elements. He said everything came out exactly where it should be, so I’d like to see the ICP. I’m guessing he probably sent OES, and all those values are likely (u.). If so, you can’t really say everything is where is should be, because a lot of the data is missing. The whole point of dosing AFR or any AIO is to supplement a lot of the missing or depleted ultra trace elements. If you’re not adding them in sufficient quantities, what’s the point.? A lot of them are gone within 24-48 hrs. We need to make sure the dose that’s being added is not only enough to keep them detectable, but also in a decent target range. These OES companies are setting their set-points at (0), because they know they don’t have the sensitivity for many of these elements. However, “don’t be alarmed,” everything is where it “should be.” Our set-points are “green flagged” at ZERO. Everything is fine! Heh!

Thanks for the reply. I know in our current conversation ICP was mentioned but as you are aware that has its own baggage. No need for either of us going down that rabbit hole. I thought there was something specific. It was more checking the actual measurements.

I use ATI and has been my preference. I've also used Oceamo a couple times after they came to market. Values are more or less the same. Oceamo obviously can detect some lower levels due to the machine they use. If I was using an additive based method that is who i would probably use although they are the most expensive.

 

[Reefahholic]

I thought there was something specific.

That’s pretty specific!