All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?
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Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
Nothing of significance unless you’re a reef moonshiner and believe all the hype and buy all their bottles of crap. Icp testing didn’t get us here today! Nobody could test for any of that and not many dosed them 10 years ago and still successful! I’m pretty sure my tank speaks for itself and I don’t test anything but alkalinity, calcium and mag on my trident. Don’t care what a icp says I have excellent growth on my sps without paying for icp testing.
areefer01
2500 Club Member
I agree. To be fair it is any additive based methodology that requires monthly, or nearly monthly, ICP testing. DSR is the only one that didn't require ICP testing but they did want you to test some with what was available to hobbyist. I don't believe the light / lite version does though.
But as a fellow hobbyist it doesn't bother me if that is what they prefer to run. They are not more advanced or newbies if they like the additive methods. They like what they like and it keeps them busy. I think that is all that has offended me here is calling a fellow hobbyist a newb or inexperienced for using something different.
Hope your day is well.
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Iron, copper, etc.
14A
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Those elements were shown on Necrodaemus ICP report, weren't? Iron and Manganese were both depleted/undetectable, which is something normal for a reef tank, isn't it?
I thought that "ultra trace" refered to something else.
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Nope. It is not being used here to mean something different.
Undetectable is common for icp-OES but not necessarily for icp-ms.
HomeSlizzice
Wrasse/Angelfish nut!
My math might not be 100% correct, but when I was making Alk adjustments with AFR I used this ratio:
All For Reef dosing: 6.45-6.76ml in 100G raises Alk by 0.1dKH
It was pretty spot on usually, and made adjustments easy.
As for the rest of the topic. AFR is a great option, I’ve also used moonshiners, ESV, ATI, Kalk, etc over the years. I am a fan of ICP to make sure there isn’t something shooting too high or low and like to follow the Moonshine calculations for almost everything (maybe not always as high for some), but I do think that AFR is a great choice to get you majority of the way there (or even all the way).
I will always do water changes though, and the recent DOC conversation as shown that to be important. A simple water change can fix a ton of issues. Reefing can be as simple or complex as you want to make it.
All For Reef dosing: 6.45-6.76ml in 100G raises Alk by 0.1dKH
It was pretty spot on usually, and made adjustments easy.
As for the rest of the topic. AFR is a great option, I’ve also used moonshiners, ESV, ATI, Kalk, etc over the years. I am a fan of ICP to make sure there isn’t something shooting too high or low and like to follow the Moonshine calculations for almost everything (maybe not always as high for some), but I do think that AFR is a great choice to get you majority of the way there (or even all the way).
I will always do water changes though, and the recent DOC conversation as shown that to be important. A simple water change can fix a ton of issues. Reefing can be as simple or complex as you want to make it.
It’s very simple. If the ratio in the bottle is .001 ug/L and your daily consumption is 1.15 ug/L, your corals are not getting enough.
Fe, Mn, Co, Cr, Cu, Ni….
Pod_01
Valuable Member
I think that is a bit of hyperbole example.
I don’t really follow, fully understand or agree with the moonshiners method/ science. At the core it honestly would stress me out, measure, adjust, dose daily etc… Just not for me.
I rather follow bit of science that seems logical like Liebig’s law of the minimum and this states that growth is dictated not by total resource availability but by scarcest resource the limiting factor.
So dosing TM A and K or AFR for example seems to fit that bill. There is always supply and measuring zero means it is likely consumed. I suspect having more will not make the corals grow faster. They only need so much or the extra will feed other things.
Less stress for me and I am not into business of selling corals so different goals.
Also the imbalance you mentioned, I suspect some of it may be caused by other products that may be used with AFR. For example I had elevated Mo and after long time I traced it to particular food type.
Good luck,
Careful, those magic bottles are strong stuff. Your front lawn may end up looking like this:
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Based on the TM claims, the actual value is 6.3 mL, so I basically agree.
Pod_01
Valuable Member
Ohhhh…. that is pretty. But some context is required.Careful, those magic bottles are strong stuff. Your front lawn may end up looking like this:
What magic bottles are you using???
HomeSlizzice
Wrasse/Angelfish nut!
Woohoo! That's close enough for government work lol. Thanks Randy!
You shouldn’t be worried about any magic bottles. Dose blindly without testing, and everything “should be” fine. Your source water “should” never have anything bleeding through the filters or any issues. No need to check it!
“After all…10-20 years ago we didn’t have ICP testing or trace elements.” “People had amazing systems without it right.??”
All joking aside….
There’s a huge issue with trying to link reefing today in the same category as reefing 10-20 years ago.
For one…our feed is much more regulated and controlled today. This is because more companies are testing their products and looking at purity and QC. We’re definitely not getting anywhere near the byproducts or impurities we did 10-20 years ago. Some byproducts were undesirable, but others absolutely beneficial for the corals. Today, if you don’t supplement some elements, they won’t be added at all. Other elements will become depleted if not supplemented at the right concentrations. Facts. Back in the day people also used mostly LR. They utilized more calcium reactors with natural coral bones which did bring in some important trace elements. They used better quality light sources (Metal halides, T5’s, etc.). They also didn’t have 5 different types of filtration equipment on their systems, or 3-4 different adsorption medias. Today, many reefers utilize a ton of unnecessary equipment or media before the cycle is even completed. Some of these reefers have already added Chemipure Blue, GAC, GFO, Purigen, Organic Carbon, etc., in the first week.
To try and make the comparison between reefing today, and 15 years ago as if they’re similar is humorous.
Reefers today are stripping their water waaaaaaay to clean, using mostly dry Marco rock, they fail to test, but yet scratch their heads as to why they’re having issues.
Just ignore one element like Potassium! If you let it get down to 325-350 for sure certain species of SPS will STN/RTN.
I can hear it already….
“My SPS are dying!” “Please Help”
Pod_01
Valuable Member
Now careful with the hyperbole, just because I call these supplements, single trace elements etc… magic bottles, it doesn’t mean I don’t test or use ICP or that I don’t have nice collection of single bottle trace elements (collecting dust at the moment).
Honestly not sure what people did 20 years ago but some had great reefs.
As mentioned testing, dosing daily, tracking is just not for me.
I tried few different methods even BOLUS (disaster in my case). The hard part is the 3+ months it takes to undo some of the unwanted results.
So far I prefer the relaxed approach and AFR is great for that from my experience.
They are all magic bottles, you add them in and WOW, sudden SPS reef appears…. Maybe…
The “bottles for lawn fertilizer” line really cracked me up. Good one.
This is actually my Acro tank:
The tank is my 3 year old problem child that was in poor health (slow growth, bleached brown color, burnt tips) since day one. Things I tried over the years to improve the health included, increasing the flow, increasing the lighting, decreasing the lighting, UV on, UV off, increased skimming, decreased skimming, added roller filter, removed roller filter, added chaeto, removed chaeto, filtered intake air to skimmer with ROX carbon to remove any potential toxins, Purigen, GAC, vinegar, aminos, increased feeding with flake, pellet, Benepets, and oyster feast, 15% weekly continuous water change, AquaBiomics Microbiome and tankDNA testing, multiple ICP-OES tests, and even TM A K Trace Elements. The only thing that would temporarily help was significant manual water changes.
I was really frustrated with all the “zeros” and “Green Panels” on the standard ICP test for Biologically Important Elements. These are trace elements that are necessary for life to exist, and the shortcoming of ICP-OES is the test is not sensitive enough to measure many of them. When I learned about the more sensitive Oceamo ICP-MS test, I thought it was an opportunity to finally get a more complete picture of the water chemistry. The test revealed low iron. With a few drops of iron, the tank was finally cured in 24 hours after three long years.
That was 4 months ago, and I continue to use B-Ionic 2 part since day 1 for calcium and alkalinity. I use ICP-MS to adjust the dosing amounts of Fe, Mn, Co, Cr, I, Cu, V that are dosed nightly from dropper bottles. Once dialed in, it’s actually very easy, and takes around 2-3 minutes each night. The tank continues to look absolutely amazing (except for the vermetid snails and those little star fish). Without ICP-MS and some elements, this tank would undoubtedly still be broken. If I was new to the hobby, I would have quit long before the puzzle was solved.
The tank currently consumes 1.4 dKH alkalinity per day, right at the maximum capability of AFR according to TM. Since TM A K did not fix the tank when it was broken, I don’t think AFR is a good match for this particular tank, as I believe AFR uses the same AK trace element package.
I get that AFR is easy to use, and is really great for tanks that don’t consume a lot of alk and trace. I also have two mixed tanks that each consume around 0.6 dKH alk per day, and I believe AFR would be a perfect fit. But when your tank starts to consume higher levels and AFR can’t keep up on its own, then I start to question the advantage.
If I have to mix up the AFR, mix up the kalk, dose the kalk, maintain a kalk reactor, dose additional A K to cover the kalk addition, and pay a premium for AFR. Then for me it becomes more complicated, and less attractive. I just don’t like mixing stuff, so I currently purchase pre-mixed B-Ionic, and top off the reservoirs every 10 days. That’s it. With the tank firing on all cylinders, I finally get to enjoy some time relaxing with the reef.
With that said, I totally understand there are many ways to run a reef tank, and I truly respect all of them. It’s a very personal thing, and this method is certainly not for everyone. A big concern that is always on my mind is dosing the wrong bottle, or calculating something wrong, and crashing the tank. It’s a real risk if you are not super careful. These magical bottles are definitely strong stuff.
Thanks for sharing this. Great example of iCP-MS leading to a solution. It is fascinating to me that many great tanks seem to avoid similar problems, probably without knowing why. I’m sure it comes down to a combination of choices like salt, water changes, foods, coral choices, and other things that would probably surprise me. I cannot get behind the idea that this is the only right way to keep a reef because many great ones don’t do it, but it sure is a good choice for troubleshooting. My next ICP will be with Oceamo because I’m curious. I wonder if I’ll be able to resist the little bottles even if everything seems good with the tank…The “bottles for lawn fertilizer” line really cracked me up. Good one.
This is actually my Acro tank:
The tank is my 3 year old problem child that was in poor health (slow growth, bleached brown color, burnt tips) since day one. Things I tried over the years to improve the health included, increasing the flow, increasing the lighting, decreasing the lighting, UV on, UV off, increased skimming, decreased skimming, added roller filter, removed roller filter, added chaeto, removed chaeto, filtered intake air to skimmer with ROX carbon to remove any potential toxins, Purigen, GAC, vinegar, aminos, increased feeding with flake, pellet, Benepets, and oyster feast, 15% weekly continuous water change, AquaBiomics Microbiome and tankDNA testing, multiple ICP-OES tests, and even TM A K Trace Elements. The only thing that would temporarily help was significant manual water changes.
I was really frustrated with all the “zeros” and “Green Panels” on the standard ICP test for Biologically Important Elements. These are trace elements that are necessary for life to exist, and the shortcoming of ICP-OES is the test is not sensitive enough to measure many of them. When I learned about the more sensitive Oceamo ICP-MS test, I thought it was an opportunity to finally get a more complete picture of the water chemistry. The test revealed low iron. With a few drops of iron, the tank was finally cured in 24 hours after three long years.
That was 4 months ago, and I continue to use B-Ionic 2 part since day 1 for calcium and alkalinity. I use ICP-MS to adjust the dosing amounts of Fe, Mn, Co, Cr, I, Cu, V that are dosed nightly from dropper bottles. Once dialed in, it’s actually very easy, and takes around 2-3 minutes each night. The tank continues to look absolutely amazing (except for the vermetid snails and those little star fish). Without ICP-MS and some elements, this tank would undoubtedly still be broken. If I was new to the hobby, I would have quit long before the puzzle was solved.
The tank currently consumes 1.4 dKH alkalinity per day, right at the maximum capability of AFR according to TM. Since TM A K did not fix the tank when it was broken, I don’t think AFR is a good match for this particular tank, as I believe AFR uses the same AK trace element package.
I get that AFR is easy to use, and is really great for tanks that don’t consume a lot of alk and trace. I also have two mixed tanks that each consume around 0.6 dKH alk per day, and I believe AFR would be a perfect fit. But when your tank starts to consume higher levels and AFR can’t keep up on its own, then I start to question the advantage.
If I have to mix up the AFR, mix up the kalk, dose the kalk, maintain a kalk reactor, dose additional A K to cover the kalk addition, and pay a premium for AFR. Then for me it becomes more complicated, and less attractive. I just don’t like mixing stuff, so I currently purchase pre-mixed B-Ionic, and top off the reservoirs every 10 days. That’s it. With the tank firing on all cylinders, I finally get to enjoy some time relaxing with the reef.
With that said, I totally understand there are many ways to run a reef tank, and I truly respect all of them. It’s a very personal thing, and this method is certainly not for everyone. A big concern that is always on my mind is dosing the wrong bottle, or calculating something wrong, and crashing the tank. It’s a real risk if you are not super careful. These magical bottles are definitely strong stuff.
Incidentally, to your point my alkalinity demand is only about 0.6 dKH per day and AFR seems to work well.
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