It’s easy to keep a small amount of Randy’s DIY recipes around for such occasions and I also use it to raise the Pro Reef salt as it has been mixing up at 6.8 alk for me lately so I raise it near 8.
All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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My Tank Thread
This chart came with AFR. It appears to be a fix-all no?
It is a recommended way to deal with the problems of a one part that I mentioned. While I don’t necessarily agree with every recommendation in it, it’s basically saying what I was saying: one may need to deal with imbalances by using other products.
reefingtexas
New Member
I’m curious how you raise the salt alkalinity?
Which DIY method?
OP
OP
Right. Just new to AFR, I was wondering if I needed to go out and purchase more B Ionic until AFR dosages are determined. (Weeks from now)
Troylee
all about the diy!!!!!
Nope… you’ll know within 2-3 days max if you need to adjust it up or down… it’s a stand alone product! The only down fall is the ph isn’t boosted like others.
After reading most of this I feel a little better about my in ability to control alk. I’m adding two tablespoons of sodium bicarbonate each week plus the amount in afr
New DIY Two Part Recipes with Higher pH Boost
Here's a first crack at what may end up being multiple possible recipes for a DIY two part that either has a higher pH or can be made more concentrated than traditional two part recipes. This one has about twice the pH raising effect compared to a carbonate based two part, per unit of...
www.reef2reef.com
Although the Ph boost isn’t needed for water changes since the freshly mixed water is already a good Ph unless you mix it for multiple days. He also has a recipe that doesn’t give as high of a Ph boost.
beav13
New Member
Question here 
I’ve been dosing AFR for about a month in a 7 mo tank. It’s a 300g tank with about 250g of water including sump. I’ve got some coral but not a ton. Somehow, it’s requiring 140ml/day of AFR to keep my alk and ca normal.
Alk 7.6-7.8
Ca 415-420
Mag 1300
Tested by trident daily and Hannah checker correlates
That seems like a ton of AFR right?
I can’t figure it out but I do know a lot of my snails have started dying since I started it.
I was dosing about 80ml each of sea hen two part before this.
What gives??
I’ve been dosing AFR for about a month in a 7 mo tank. It’s a 300g tank with about 250g of water including sump. I’ve got some coral but not a ton. Somehow, it’s requiring 140ml/day of AFR to keep my alk and ca normal.
Alk 7.6-7.8
Ca 415-420
Mag 1300
Tested by trident daily and Hannah checker correlates
That seems like a ton of AFR right?
I can’t figure it out but I do know a lot of my snails have started dying since I started it.
I was dosing about 80ml each of sea hen two part before this.
What gives??
areefer01
2500 Club Member
Yes, Lou says it is a stand alone product, single solution, at the 5 second marker.
See above.
Furthermore Lou goes on to state:
The one drawback is that you lose the ability to increase single trace elements when using this product. In short - you cannot increase the AFR dose to increase selenium, strontium, vanadium, etc.
The question for the hobbyist now is does that matter or not. If it does, then this isn't the product for them. Neither would a 2 part. Probably not a 3 part. You are an additive based user, Moonshiners, so this isn't a product for you as your hobby passion or belief is that control over strontium or other trace elements works for you.
And lastly, no. The product isn't for newbies.
Oh - if you can give me a trace element that you think AFR over doses (I think you mentioned that in another post) or under or can't keep up, let me know. I have some data so can look how it works in my system out of curiosity.
Hope your day is well.
Been using it in my mature 165 gal DT for going on 2 years. It works great. Multiple ICP tests show all my main and trace elements stay rock solid. I wish I’d know about it for all those years using 2Part and calcium reactors.So I’ve read up and watched a ton of videos and of course Reef2reef has nicely put things into perspective regarding the switchover.
I’m just curious, what will I learn. What should I learn about this new direction. What have you learned that surprised you? Thanks in advance.
You’ll understand later my friend. I look at a lot of ICP data. Much of that data is from reefers coming off AFR or just starting AFR and trying to combine AFR with another methodology. In their mind, AFR + X product will make it that much better. This usually last about 3-6 months until they start overdosing several elements and then they finally switch to a regular 2-part without traces that doesn’t interfere.
Long story short, AFR is not a stand alone product. It cannot keep up with a demanding SPS tank. Furthermore,
Just like all the other AIO products, AFR is known to overdose multiple different trace elements in younger systems. Nobody can predetermine a specific fixed ratio for multiple trace elements, stick them all in one bottle, and call it good across the board for reefers who all have different variables, biomass, coral species, etc. As mentioned before, there’s not one product out there that’s a “one size fits all.” You can try to base the dosing off Alkalinity or Calcium demand, but that doesn’t work well. The consumption for every reef is always different, because every system is different. Each element will be consumed at a different rate. So if you have a set ratio/potency that you cannot control, you will either need to stop that entire AIO bottle that’s overdosing X element/s, or add another product if you’re underdosing X elememt/s. It’s just that simple. Stopping the entire bottle means you also stopped a Major element (typically Alk, Ca, or Mg) and several other trace elements. Now you need to switch products and calculate a new dose for a major element based on the potency of the new product and get that dialed back in.
Here’s a prime example and I could probably give you 50 more.
And for good reason. Both are important elements.
Well of course people want to check on their chemistry. It’s never good to reef blind and “assume” everything is all good.
TM loves the reefer that doesn’t question or check on the chemistry. Ignorance is bliss.
Hans-Werner
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In contrast to @Reefahholic I recommend a bit a more relaxed position also with minerals and trace elements since some are in fact kind of self-regulating to a certain degree and when kept in safe boundaries.
I take magensium, which was also mentioned here to be sometimes high and sometimes low, as an example. I know that the magensium supply with All-For-Reef may be a bit high for some tanks in the beginning, but when accepting that magnesium rises to for example 1450 ppm, the elevated magnesium concentration may induce more growth of coralline algae. These in turn increase magnesium consumption and magnesium concentration drops back to more normale levels.
Other elements like iodine may be self-regulating to a certain extent when kept in safe boundaries too. Iodine may support more growth of sponges which consume iodine and so on.
Like in nutrient supply and with nutrients I have noticed that chasing numbers is not helpful with trace element supply also. Always keeping regulating and adjusting supply may cause more fluctuation and swings in concentrations and may cause distress to corals and reefers as well. Keeping an a little bit more relaxed position and just watch how everything adapts to the supply and grows better and better with time may be much less distressful for corals and reefers.
Not all corals may adapt equally well to the same conditions. Also reefs are more different than one may think. Upwelling may create different conditions on two sides of the same island. Volkanism may supply trace metals to some reefs but not to others, currents, runoff from land, rivers, dust driven by winds etc., they all create slightly different conditions in different reefs. Accordingly the coral species which grow in one reef but not in the other will also vary. Who will be able to tell you what the ideal concentrations for your tank are?
Nevertheless or exactly because of this most corals are quite adaptive and will thrive under different conditions and with different concentrations. Sometimes it is key to just keep things stable and do changes slowly.
I take magensium, which was also mentioned here to be sometimes high and sometimes low, as an example. I know that the magensium supply with All-For-Reef may be a bit high for some tanks in the beginning, but when accepting that magnesium rises to for example 1450 ppm, the elevated magnesium concentration may induce more growth of coralline algae. These in turn increase magnesium consumption and magnesium concentration drops back to more normale levels.
Other elements like iodine may be self-regulating to a certain extent when kept in safe boundaries too. Iodine may support more growth of sponges which consume iodine and so on.
Like in nutrient supply and with nutrients I have noticed that chasing numbers is not helpful with trace element supply also. Always keeping regulating and adjusting supply may cause more fluctuation and swings in concentrations and may cause distress to corals and reefers as well. Keeping an a little bit more relaxed position and just watch how everything adapts to the supply and grows better and better with time may be much less distressful for corals and reefers.
Not all corals may adapt equally well to the same conditions. Also reefs are more different than one may think. Upwelling may create different conditions on two sides of the same island. Volkanism may supply trace metals to some reefs but not to others, currents, runoff from land, rivers, dust driven by winds etc., they all create slightly different conditions in different reefs. Accordingly the coral species which grow in one reef but not in the other will also vary. Who will be able to tell you what the ideal concentrations for your tank are?
Nevertheless or exactly because of this most corals are quite adaptive and will thrive under different conditions and with different concentrations. Sometimes it is key to just keep things stable and do changes slowly.
Well, you already know that my previous Marco Rock tank was binding P so aggressively for 1 year that I had to dose 0.16 ppm daily for months to get it to saturate. That high volume dosing had to be done several times, because the system would walk backwards after a few months of stopping or decreasing the dose. Had I not chased that P level to get the tank saturated, that system would have crashed. Phosphate is so important, and everything needs it to thrive. When the rock or sand steals all the available P, nothing else can utilize it. The result? A tank full of Ostreopsis Dino’s, Turf algae, Bryopsis, Cyano, and other undesirable brown slime algae species that thrive in low P environments. In that situation I find it absolutely necessary to chase nutrients, and push past what the rock is stealing so that P becomes available to everyone else that needs it to function. If your key players do not have fuel, they cannot enter the battleground.
Regarding not chasing trace elements…
Yes, you can let them become depleted, corals will adapt, but I do not believe our reef tanks are the same as the ocean. For me it’s not optimal for a reef tank. In the ocean there’s a constant replenishment, and a abundance of other resources available. The conditions are far more favorable for the corals to thrive, keep resistance from pathogens, thermal stress, photo inhibition, etc.
I appreciated marked improvements in color, growth, and PE… just from elevating my ultra trace elements from .05-0.1 ug/L to 0.4-0.7 ug/L range when ICP-MS became available. You wouldn’t think a small jump of 0.35 ug/L would make much difference, but it’s drastic. I was quite shocked honestly, because back then I wasn’t expecting anything significant from such minimal numbers, or at least what I perceived to be minimal. My pod population and microbiome also exploded under the microscope. Sponge growth exploded, but I was keeping Si at 300 ug/L around the same time so I can’t say for sure that was related, but it appeared that way. I haven’t seen one person yet who hasn’t experienced the same results if they bump those elements up by 0.3-0.4 ug/L. So even though some corals may survive in low or sometimes depleted trace element environments, or in waste water run-off from farms, is that optimal for growth, health, color, etc.?
Mike Paletta recently talked about keeping his Nickel higher, because there was a study or something about a Nickel mine where the Nickel was higher and the corals were more robust to pathogens compared to others in the same area.
Go to 11:44 below:
Same here, but RHF says don’t measure mag, so I’m following that advise…
Anyway, so far, so good… one less dosing head to use…
Hans-Werner
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I agree that phosphate is extremely important for all organisms and in the water for coral growth. Possibly artificial dry rock or rock low in phosphate requires special measures. Also here I agree. However, this is something special that users of such rocks or ceramics should be aware of and that is not what the average reefer understands under "chasing numbers".
The most common danger of chasing number is that misunderstandings or bad recommendations cause more harm than good.
If all essential trace elements are in a constant supply with well balanced trace element solutions there's a constant replenishment. The problem is that the normal concentrations of some trace elements are so low or the trace elements are precipitating so fast that ICP-OES will most likely not find them, or the concentrations may not be representative for the average concentration over a longer period of time.
I was not talking about let them become depleted. I am absolutely an advocate of a constant supply and I think you know this. In fact I developed and published trace element formulations in 1995/96. I think this have been maybe the first approaches of scientifically based trace element supplies for reef tanks. This is how far back my experiences with own forumulated trace element supplies go, around 30 years.
