All for Reef!!! Excited to make the change! What say you?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was worried about that too when I switched but I just set it to dose throughout the day and let it do its thing. I check with my Hanna once a week after a daytime test runs and it’s close. The controlled dosing is set for 8 and doesn’t seem to try to overcompensate when the tests at night have some dips in alkalinity. The midnight test is nearly all of those dips, some are the 6am test.

How does it know to stop dosing AFR? Is it set to a naturally slow dowsing rate or short times??

 

[thedon986]

How does it know to stop dosing AFR? Is it set to a naturally slow dowsing rate or short times??

It doses .4ml about every 13 minutes throughout the day and tweaks based on the test results. Some days 33 total for the 24 hour period some days 34 but my demand has been slowly rising so I am see it start to crew up. I was around 30 two weeks ago. Yesterday was 34, day before 33.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It doses .4ml about every 13 minutes throughout the day and tweaks based on the test results. Some days 33 total for the 24 hour period some days 34 but my demand has been slowly rising so I am see it start to crew up. I was around 30 two weeks ago. Yesterday was 34, day before 33.

OK, thanks.

 

[exnisstech]

No regrets here. I run things pretty simple. A reefmat no skimmer no controller. I started AFR 7 months ago in my SPS tank. The tank had just turned 1yo so I can't say if it was AFR or tank maturity but the frags really took off. Total volume is 65g and I do 2g water changes every 2 weeks or so to remove detritus that collects in one corner. I dosed manually but recently added a doser. I had to tweak alk a couple of times early in and used esv but the last few months it has been smooth sailing. Calcium has been over 400 when tested. I'm currently at 35ml AFR daily. I have no comment on pH because I never check it.

 

[Glenner’sreef]

IMO, a switch from ESV to AFR would accomplish simplification and convenience, but will lose the pH boost and some flexibility in relative alk/calcium dosing.

If one wants trace element dosing along with ESV or other two part without it, I recommend Tropic Marin A and K, but others may be fine too.

Explain “losing some flexibility in relative alk/calcium dosing”.

 

[PharmrJohn]

Inability to control individual elements, usually resulting in very high magnesium, and pH of 7.9 at best. I do think it works great, however I wanted to take a different path for my tanks.

Yep. Exactly. I prefer to manage mine individually.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Explain “losing some flexibility in relative alk/calcium dosing”.

With AFR, you cannot add a little more alk and a little less calcium, or the other way around, should you need to due to water changes or other processes slightly altering the alk to calcium demand ratio.

It also adds a little bit of excess calcium relative to alkalinity which eventually may need to be addressed.

With a two or three part, you can dose in any ratio you desire.

 

[Troylee]

With AFR, you cannot add a little more alk and a little less calcium, or the other way around, should you need to due to water changes or other processes slightly altering the alk to calcium demand ratio.

It also adds a little bit of excess calcium relative to alkalinity which eventually may need to be addressed.

With a two or three part, you can dose in any ratio you desire.

I top off with fully saturated kalk and dose all for reef. My calcium is always high but I don’t see any ill effects from it myself. I do water changes when it’s cooler out and it keeps my calcium right around 500 and currently sits at the numbers below.. it’s a battle with both additives to keep calcium down in the low 400’s so I stopped fighting it and let it do its thang.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I top off with fully saturated kalk and dose all for reef. My calcium is always high but I don’t see any ill effects from it myself. I do water changes when it’s cooler out and it keeps my calcium right around 500 and currently sits at the numbers below.. it’s a battle with both additives to keep calcium down in the low 400’s so I stopped fighting it and let it do its thang.

Yes, I corrected the same calcium imbalance with water changes. Folks just need to keep in mind they may need to, and the higher the demand, the faster calcium will rise. High calcium is not generally a problem, but it will keep on going up without water changes.

Here's a cut and paste of my experience, where limewater/kalkwasser has the identical imbalance as AFR:

Calcium (Ca). In my reef aquarium, I use only Instant Ocean salt and I have not added any additional calcium except as limewater for a number of years (during which time I have continued regular 1% daily water changes). So why is my calcium level (472 mg/L) higher than one would normally expect for Instant Ocean (maybe between 350 and 400 mg/L)? That long term rise in calcium is actually the expected result when using limewater to maintain alkalinity.

Limewater adds calcium and alkalinity in exactly the same proportions as in pure calcium carbonate. So if that is what is used by corals to make skeletons, and what precipitates on pumps and such, then calcium would stay constant.

But both magnesium and strontium get into growing calcium carbonate crystals in place of some of the calcium. A few percent of the calcium is replaced this way. Consequently, since the same amount of alkalinity (the carbonate) is used over time, and somewhat less than the balancing amount of calcium, calcium rises if alkalinity is maintained. I’m happy to see the result match the theory, and the calcium level seems fine to me.

 

[mlivvy]

Personally the only way I was able to get my tank stable using AFR was also dosing kalk. I dose kalk overnight hourly then 2 doses of AFR in the am. Cal/Alk is stable at 440/8.2. Before the kalk my cal will either be low and alk high or vice versa. I honestly havn't been paying attention to the PH so I don't have data on that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Personally the only way I was able to get my tank stable using AFR was also dosing kalk. I dose kalk overnight hourly then 2 doses of AFR in the am. Cal/Alk is stable at 440/8.2. Before the kalk my cal will either be low and alk high or vice versa. I honestly havn't been paying attention to the PH so I don't have data on that.

I cannot see how you would not accomplish the same thing using more AFR. Did you try?

 

[areefer01]

It doses .4ml about every 13 minutes throughout the day and tweaks based on the test results. Some days 33 total for the 24 hour period some days 34 but my demand has been slowly rising so I am see it start to crew up. I was around 30 two weeks ago. Yesterday was 34, day before 33.

I personally would not recommend using the Trident assisted dosing with a single product solution but that is just me. In my 210 gallon mixed reef a change in the AFR dose alkalinity can take anywhere from 12 to 36 hours to show up in a test result (Trident user as well).

OP - I switched from ESV 2 part. The only reason was because I wanted a single dosing product and made the switch once the DIY component recipe was out which lowered the price point. I now use the 1600 g container which makes 10 liters. I dose 95 ml/day over a couple hours using a dosing pump. Nothing exciting here. My display was fine with ESV 2 part and it is equally fine with one part All For Reef. I've not noticed any difference if I am being honest other than a quality of life change (2 products to 1).

Cons - some say price. 1600 g container is 75 USD pre tax which makes 10 liters. There is a 5 gallon bucket supposedly available but I believe that is for professional use, not home hobbyist. Lou mentioned they are considering offering a larger container for home use but no ETA. It is a popular product so maybe that is in our future. They went from single product, liquid, expensive to providing the over the counter TM product DIY recipe which lowered the cost, then the 1600 g powder container. Seems like they are aware and have worked to lower the price for hobbyist which is nice.

Single trace element adjustability. If Iodine or strontium is low you can't increase the daily dose of AFR to increase it. You have to buy a product, calculate the dose, and then add. Some raise this as a point of contention but I don't see it that way. In fact I would question how one would know but I know the answer, they run ICP tests. So if one is into trace element control or additive methods like DSR, Triton, Moonshiner, or other than this isn't the tool/product to use.

Last one I'm aware of, and I may not get this correct, but is related to both Kalkwasser and AFR use. Lou (Tropic Marin) made a comment about a lot of recent posts and/or emails he is getting to use Kalkwasser to boost their pH with All For Reef. He said yeah you can but every amount of Alk and Ca that you are getting from the kalkwasser (forget about pH boost) you are not getting it now from the All For Reef so this decreases the amount of trace elements you would otherwise get. Seems to make sense if one uses both which some do to increase pH. I

I think that is about it. TL; DR - nice single product solution, works as advertised, I didn't see anything different than when I was using ESV 2 part. It works, clean, easy to mix, and my display seems to be ok with it. I like Tropic Marin, this product, and I am happy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Last one I'm aware of, and I may not get this correct, but is related to both Kalkwasser and AFR use. Lou (Tropic Marin) made a comment about a lot of recent posts and/or emails he is getting to use Kalkwasser to boost their pH with All For Reef. He said yeah you can but every amount of Alk and Ca that you are getting from the kalkwasser (forget about pH boost) you are not getting it now from the All For Reef so this decreases the amount of trace elements you would otherwise get. Seems to make sense if one uses both which some do to increase pH. I

Yes, that is certainly true.

 

[Dburr1014]

I personally would not recommend using the Trident assisted dosing with a single product solution but that is just me. In my 210 gallon mixed reef a change in the AFR dose alkalinity can take anywhere from 12 to 36 hours to show up in a test result (Trident user as well).

OP - I switched from ESV 2 part. The only reason was because I wanted a single dosing product and made the switch once the DIY component recipe was out which lowered the price point. I now use the 1600 g container which makes 10 liters. I dose 95 ml/day over a couple hours using a dosing pump. Nothing exciting here. My display was fine with ESV 2 part and it is equally fine with one part All For Reef. I've not noticed any difference if I am being honest other than a quality of life change (2 products to 1).

Cons - some say price. 1600 g container is 75 USD pre tax which makes 10 liters. There is a 5 gallon bucket supposedly available but I believe that is for professional use, not home hobbyist. Lou mentioned they are considering offering a larger container for home use but no ETA. It is a popular product so maybe that is in our future. They went from single product, liquid, expensive to providing the over the counter TM product DIY recipe which lowered the cost, then the 1600 g powder container. Seems like they are aware and have worked to lower the price for hobbyist which is nice.

Single trace element adjustability. If Iodine or strontium is low you can't increase the daily dose of AFR to increase it. You have to buy a product, calculate the dose, and then add. Some raise this as a point of contention but I don't see it that way. In fact I would question how one would know but I know the answer, they run ICP tests. So if one is into trace element control or additive methods like DSR, Triton, Moonshiner, or other than this isn't the tool/product to use.

Last one I'm aware of, and I may not get this correct, but is related to both Kalkwasser and AFR use. Lou (Tropic Marin) made a comment about a lot of recent posts and/or emails he is getting to use Kalkwasser to boost their pH with All For Reef. He said yeah you can but every amount of Alk and Ca that you are getting from the kalkwasser (forget about pH boost) you are not getting it now from the All For Reef so this decreases the amount of trace elements you would otherwise get. Seems to make sense if one uses both which some do to increase pH. I

I think that is about it. TL; DR - nice single product solution, works as advertised, I didn't see anything different than when I was using ESV 2 part. It works, clean, easy to mix, and my display seems to be ok with it. I like Tropic Marin, this product, and I am happy.

95ml a day.
The container lasts about 3 months for you.
So about $300 a year.

I'm going to have to add up the calrx media and the continuous pump running to see if it's comparable in price.

Got a tank pic? Curious, you said you have a mixed reef.

 

[mlivvy]

I cannot see how you would not accomplish the same thing using more AFR. Did you try?

I believe now it can be accomplished if I remove the kalk and up the AFR. I think I just needed that kick at the beginning to get it going. I'm going to take the kalk offline and up the AFR to see what happens.

 

[areefer01]

95ml a day.
The container lasts about 3 months for you.
So about $300 a year.

Correct. In fact I ran a similar cost analysis as you just did. I hope TM releases a larger container but at the moment the cost isn't a deal breaker for me.

Got a tank pic? Curious, you said you have a mixed reef.

Not great quality but here is a brief video. Few large LPS colonies hidden with various SPS. Nothing fancy. Pro Reef salt for water changes every 3 weeks at best. I'm not the greatest about water changes but that is the schedule I try and keep. Prior to TM salt I was using instant ocean. The display is almost 8 years old.

 

[Dburr1014]

Correct. In fact I ran a similar cost analysis as you just did. I hope TM releases a larger container but at the moment the cost isn't a deal breaker for me.



Not great quality but here is a brief video. Few large LPS colonies hidden with various SPS. Nothing fancy. Pro Reef salt for water changes every 3 weeks at best. I'm not the greatest about water changes but that is the schedule I try and keep. Prior to TM salt I was using instant ocean. The display is almost 8 years old.

I see you have a few large colonies up top.

Thank you.

I also forgot the co2 tank media to replenish, another cost.
Something to think about.

 

[areefer01]

I see you have a few large colonies up top.

Yes. Ignoring the Montipora there is a table Acropora up top that is a bit out of control. Up front there was another thick branch Acropora. Left side has several smaller colonies of various sizes with two larger LPS tucked behind the rocks. Hammer and Frogspawn. The Hammer is probably half the size of a NBA basketball. There is maybe 1 or 2 small frags on the substrate that I glued broken tips off on rubble growing. All in all various size corals.

Thank you.

You are welcom.

I also forgot the co2 tank media to replenish, another cost.
Something to think about.

I do not run a co2 tank. Just All For Reef and water changes. Believe it or not this display was running very high phosphates for most of its life. 2.2 ppm phosphate for reference.

 

[Glenner’sreef]

With AFR, you cannot add a little more alk and a little less calcium, or the other way around, should you need to due to water changes or other processes slightly altering the alk to calcium demand ratio.

It also adds a little bit of excess calcium relative to alkalinity which eventually may need to be addressed.

With a two or three part, you can dose in any ratio you desire.

This chart came with AFR. It appears to be a fix-all no?

 

[areefer01]

This chart came with AFR. It appears to be a fix-all no?

The flow chart you posted is to help guide the hobbyist "manually" adjust using their respective product. You could manually adjust using ESV parts or any other but the graphic above is to help guide. Increase the dose, continue with same dose but add A, etc. It is "in addition to", decrease AFR dos, or continue with the same sort of thing.

I adjusted with my left over ESV part and in my case only had to adjust alkalinity.