1% Ivermectin (in-tank) Treatment for Coral Boring Spionid Worms

[Reefahholic]

This picks up on Day 14 where I left off after I performed a 20% water change:

Saturday 08/10/24 (Day 14)
1:40pm. 20% Water change made things look worse. Turned on GAC. UV bulb not working. Comes on then goes off 15-30 min later. Two new bulbs will be here tomorrow.

5:01pm. GAC stopped. Zero change with Goni polyps.

6:45pm. KH = 9.1, P = 0.172, N = 14.2

Sunday 08/11/24 (Day 15) 6:50am. GAC started again.

12:01pm. Stopped GAC. Zero changes in Acro’s or Goni after 5+ hrs. Running the tank too clean.

6:40pm. KH = 9.2, P = 0.184, N = 15.8

6:50pm. 55w UV bulbs arrived, changed, and UV is back in action.

11:31pm UV does seem to be having a positive effect. Will continue to monitor.

Monday 08/12/24 (Day 16) 1:06pm. UV seems to be helping slightly. Not by much. Goni is still retracted. I’m noticing some Acro’s putting out menstrual filaments in the middle of the photo period today which is not normal. I’m not feeding anything right now. They also did this with the initial Ivermectin dosing. I think it’s a stress response to the continuous leaching from the rocks. Cyano and Ostreopsis Dino continue to dominate the system. Some corals are getting more pale and dry looking. I need to get them out of here and into a new system with clean water asap.

Tuesday 08/13/24 (Day 17) 6:22pm. Corals continue to pale and brown with Cyano and Dino’s dominating the system. UV not very helpful. The Bali Green Slimer is the only coral that hasn’t lost color or PE and seems to be completely unaffected.

Wednesday 08/14/24 (Day 18) 8:43pm. Still only one acro loss as of 18 days. Colors very pale and more corals are browning out. Tank continues to decline. It’s quite obvious that whatever residual level of Ivermectin that’s still in the system or leaching is toxic and very irritating to the corals. The system is having a difficult time trying to recover and balance itself again. Right now it’s a race to remove the corals, and get them into the 40B. This will still take another two weeks. The KP Live Rock will be here on 08/21 (7 days). Then I need to quickly cycle the tank. Not sure if all the corals will make it another 14 days, but I’m hoping they’ll hold on.

KH = 9.2, P = 0.239, N= 16.4

 

[Reefahholic]

Going to throw a HOB Aquaclear 70, 150w Jager Heater, two Nero 5’s, and 3x Radion G5 XR15’s and call it done. This temporary tank should be ready to go, and keep the corals alive while I build the new scape and clean my other system. Might be a tight fit!

 

[Vested]

Going to throw a HOB Aquaclear 70, 150w Jager Heater, two Nero 5’s, and 3x Radion G5 XR15’s and call it done. This temporary tank should be ready to go, and keep the corals alive while I build the new scape and clean my other system. Might be a tight fit!

Think this is awesome, glad your moving forward

 

[Reefahholic]

Think this is awesome, glad your moving forward

No choice! Not much time left. I keep thinking it will dissipate, but it’s showing no signs of letting up sadly.

 

[Dburr1014]

6:45pm. KH = 9.1, P = 0.172, N = 14.2

Sunday 08/11/24 (Day 15) 6:50am. GAC started again.

12:01pm. Stopped GAC. Zero changes in Acro’s or Goni after 5+ hrs. Running the tank too clean.

6:40pm. KH = 9.2, P = 0.184, N = 15.8

6:50pm. 55w UV bulbs arrived, changed, and UV is back in action.

11:31pm UV does seem to be having a positive effect. Will continue to monitor.

I need to get them out of here and into a new system with clean water asap.

Don't take this the wrong way.
I'm a little confused.

Your running GAC only at 5 hour clips, you have nutrients. The new UV bulb is in.

You state your running the system to clean but also want to put them in a cleaner tank with cleaner water. Can you elaborate on this?
The coral will still have ivermectin embedded in the skeleton and will leach in any tank.
I'm going to sound like a broken record and excuse me for doing so, I really think between UV and running GAC all day and night will help more than moving them out into a new system.

I hope your corals can hold on, this is really heart breaking.

 

[Reefahholic]

Your running GAC only at 5 hour clips, you have nutrients. The new UV bulb is in.

You state your running the system to clean but also want to put them in a cleaner tank with cleaner water. Can you elaborate on this?

We’re talking about corals that are severely sensitive right now. Pale, dry, browning, etc.

Chemical filtration is overrated. I do not like GFO or GAC and there’s a reason why many of us only run carbon in a mesh bag. In a fluidized reactor is a bit harsh, and can cause major issues depending on different conditions, variables, or the actual brand of carbon used. Even with nutrients…overly stressed corals don’t appreciate strong chemical filtration. They’re barely hanging on as it is. Not only that, carbon doesn’t remove everything, and it’s certainly not doing much for Ivermectin. Running UV and carbon at the same time is just too much. If they’re not very effective, there’s really no point. I’ve kept the UV on, but there’s little improvement.

When I transfer the corals, the tank will be cycled. The water shouldn’t be too clean, because I will dose the nutrients up to where they are now, and make she there’s enough nutrition going in daily. The whole purpose is to remove the corals from the toxic ivermectin environment, and get them into water that has not been treated. I need to get them away from the leaching rocks. Will there be zero ivermectin after transferring the corals? I doubt it, but it will be much less than what’s in my DT currently. Even if the tissue absorbed the drug, and plugs are binding a small amount, the leaching will be nowhere near what it is currently.

The transition alone could easily kill the corals, but leaving them where they’re at now will likely kill them anyway. So it’s another gamble I’m willing to take to potentially help the corals recover. If some die there’s nothing I can do, but at least those that survive will hopefully go on to recover, and start coloring up over time if they’re not too damaged.

 

[Reefahholic]

I'm going to sound like a broken record and excuse me for doing so, I really think between UV and running GAC all day and night will help more than moving them out into a new system.

Both are not doing much at all.

Here’s the problem…

 

[Pntbll687]

Forgive me as I didn’t read through the whole thread.

As someone who sells ivermectin in the animal health world I have a couple questions

1) was this an injectable solution or pour on that you dosed?
2. How did you arrive at the dosage?

I could never recommend to use a medication or similar products for “off label” use, but I understand why you would pick ivermectin.

 

[Reefahholic]

Forgive me as I didn’t read through the whole thread.

As someone who sells ivermectin in the animal health world I have a couple questions

1) was this an injectable solution or pour on that you dosed?
2. How did you arrive at the dosage?

I could never recommend to use a medication or similar products for “off label” use, but I understand why you would pick ivermectin.

This was a 1% injectable solution.

The dose was 15 mL per 100 gallons.

I picked that dose because a lot of people reported good results from it, and nobody reported a lingering effect or binding to rocks or substrate. I knew it was a potent dose, but it was killing basically everything as far as bugs, worms, and appeared to kill Spionid worms which was my primary target. I wanted to go with a higher dose to be sure I didn’t have to repeat the treatment later. Although this dose was very potent, and did kill about 95% of the Spionid worms, a few still survived. My current system is very strange. Two years ago a Fluconazole treatment almost crashed the tank in 9 days. So I knew it could likely happen again. The first Fluconazole treatment I did on the tank prior had almost zero effect on the tank. That’s probably because it was a LR system, and this one is dry rock, and had problems from the very beginning. So what happened in this tank may not happen in somebody else’s tank.

Below is a guy from Singapore that treated his system back in 2014, and his data stuck in my mind for months. It was really what convinced me to do my treatment:

khiann

Posted July 9, 2014

I have been fighting with Red Bugs and AEFW for 8 months. Tried out of tank dipping with iodine, coral dip and garlic(pills and fresh squash). With these treatment, both bugs came off and sps recover for 1 - 2 weeks, however, they come back with even stronger number of army. Losses many precious species of SPS due do this. I found that I have 2 type of red-bug(one red, one slightly larger but grey in color) and AEFW. The one does the most damage is red bugs. SPS will have the polyps retract, discolored and bite marks shown very quickly.

One thing to take note for the community, if you are buying wild/cultured sps from the local LFS, I can almost assure you will get either one of it if you never do any quarantine/dip. You will think that the sps didn't manage to survive in your tank condition but, to me, 90% of my sps death is due to this. It will start with polyp retracted, might NOT get discolor or turn brown. The base of the SPS will start minor flesh retract. If you never notice close enough, you will have small white spots of bite mark when infestion is long enough.

I decided enough is enough, decided to try Ivermectin 1% with the tank since some of the document on internet show it is effective on "both" the bugs. I was having difficulty getting the med from local vet, until I get it from somewhere(pm me if you need). It is a water soluble based of ivermectin for horse injection. 1%. WARNING, this is a very strong chemical to both human and animals. It will KILL all brittle star, snails, prawn, even small fish and small clams. Good thing is, some of the unwanted pest worm also get killed in the action. I did the full tank treatment with xtreme care. I will not be responsible for naything happen to your tank.

Treatment for my 4x2x1.5 tank with 4x1.5x1.5 sump. with 22 species of sensitive and hardy sps. with 3 soft coral and a few zoas, one bubble anemone

6pm, I prepare fresh replacement salt water enough for 70% water change. Exact salinity, ca and KH, same temperature.

8pm, I dose 15ML of the ivermectin by mixing with the tank water in a container, then pour into the sump. Turn off both of my skimmer and take out all carbon.

802pm, all my sps polyp retracted, including monti and BN. Clams shuts. Massive bubbles forms in the sumps area.

805pm. all snail, acro crab and some unknown bugs running for life, sps start to slimes

815pm. good amount of red bug and AEFW clinging on slimes string created on sps

830pm. all small snail and crab is no longer moving, all the pest worms and brittle stars floating around in the water. Try to remove as much as I can with fine hole net. My heart almost stop seeing the condition of the tank. No white cloud created in the water though.

9pm. similar, except the sps polyp came back and clams open slightly. Massive amount of pest dead. Small fish including little nemo stunt, laying but breathing on tank bottom.

10pm, turned on all skimmers and carbon. Skimmers immediately overflow like crazy, I drain the skimmers overflow directly into the toilet. Close monitor every 15 minutes and replace the water lost with fresh water.

11pm, SPS came back like magic with better than before polyp extension. soft and hard coral is not affected at all. anemone too.

2am, almost 1/4 of water over flown and replaced.

4am, skimmer come back to normal, went to sleep

8am, replace new carbon, clean skimmer neck, replace the remaining 20% of water. coral status quo

2nd day passed, slightly higher NO3 noticed, 10ppm higher, came down in a few days. SPS does not seems to be affected, Zero coral casualty. All crabs and worms are gone, together with the pest. notice zero of it on the coral

3rd day, clams and fish all recovered

8th day, 10ML dose with similar procedure. This time no more massive death occur, prob all dead in the first dose.

16th day, 8ML dose

One month passed, I have zero pest in the tank, including AEFW! The sps rebound with extremely fast growth and polyp extension, much better color too. Will take picture too.. just a sharing for the folks, be careful with the treatment though. I think the water change make a difference and didn't lead the treatment to tank crash.

 

[Reefering1]

Forgive me as I didn’t read through the whole thread.

As someone who sells ivermectin in the animal health world I have a couple questions

1) was this an injectable solution or pour on that you dosed?
2. How did you arrive at the dosage?

I could never recommend to use a medication or similar products for “off label” use, but I understand why you would pick ivermectin.

The real question is... Do you know how to remove or bind it from the water/ rocks/ sand???

 

[Vested]

The real question is... Do you know how to remove or bind it from the water/ rocks/ sand???

No thats the reason hes setting up another tank lol

 

[Reefering1]

No thats the reason hes setting up another tank lol

I understand that... @Pntbll687 seemed to have some professional experience with the ivermectin.. was hoping he had some knowledge "we"(op and others) don't...

 

[Vested]

I understand that... @Pntbll687 seemed to have some professional experience with the ivermectin.. was hoping he had some knowledge "we"(op and others) don't...

Ah, yeah if someone knows something better then uv and carbon please share

 

[Reefering1]

Ah, yeah if someone knows something better then uv and carbon please share

I think you're being sarcastic, but yes that would be the only thing worth talking about here. Right?

 

[Vested]

I think you're being sarcastic, but yes that would be the only thing worth talking about here. Right?

Im not lol, yea it would be very helpful for @Reefahholic rn

 

[Reefahholic]

I understand that... @Pntbll687 seemed to have some professional experience with the ivermectin.. was hoping he had some knowledge "we"(op and others) don't...

I have no clue how to remove it. Wish I had a magic pill. Definitely not waiting 70 days for it to “maybe” dissipate.

I miss seeing healthy corals. It’s depressing looking at a pale dying system. Ready to get back to seeing some vivid color and healthy PE.

I’m excited to peg some acros and build a new scape.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ah, yeah if someone knows something better then uv and carbon please share

Yes, because those two are useless. Wish I could try some Ozone. Don’t have money for it right now, and I’ve never ran it…not sure how aggressive that would be.

 

[Reefahholic]

Im not lol, yea it would be very helpful for @Reefahholic rn

At this point I've accepted defeat.

It’s time to move on and try to save as much as I can. Some will most likely die during that transfer process or before, but I’ll just have to add to my collection.

I hope the majority can hang on for another few weeks. I believe most can. I think I’ll loose the Raja’s, Strawberry shortcake looks like death, ARC Master Yoda and JF Fox flame are bad. Can’t believe they haven’t RTN yet.

 

[Vested]

At this point I've accepted defeat.

It’s time to move on and try to save as much as I can. Some will most likely die during that transfer process or before, but I’ll just have to add to my collection.

I hope the majority can hang on for another few weeks. I believe most can. I think I’ll loose the Raja’s, Strawberry shortcake looks like death, ARC Master Yoda and JF Fox flame are bad. Can’t believe they haven’t RTN yet.

Happy to help you replace some of those that I have when you get everything in order again, I would be doing the same thing I think the new setup with fresh live rock is the way to go now.

 

[Reefahholic]

@Dburr1014 here’s a few examples of why I’m hesitant to run GAC too aggressively, and also why I don’t ever run GFO. Many different brands of Carbon and other Adsorbers can cause major changes in chemistry when added or removed from the system.

I’ll give you a few examples of ICP-MS data above…followed by a real world example of GAC use from today:


“Hey, I recently got my latest MS (MSR225566) test back today and I think there may have been bad test results for the following elements: Cobalt, Iron, Manganese, Selenium and Vandium.”

last test for Cobalt was 0.52 (dose 10 drops daily) and my current test was 1.26 (changed to 12 drops daily from previous test).

last test for Iron was 0.53 (dose 6 drops daily) and my current test was 0.13 (changed to 7 drops daily from previous test)

Last test for manganese was 0.68 (daily dose was 0.85) and my current test was 0.17 (changed to 0.80 daily from previous test)

last test for Selenium was 0.286 (daily dose of 11 drops) current test was 1.063 (changed to 13 drops daily from previous test)

last test for Vandium was 1.05 (daily dose was 11 drops) because I was in range with this element I have not changed my daily dosing. This current test was 6.81.

“All my other elements have been in their normal correction ranges. I only dose suggested moonhsine products and nothing else and I only use media suggested by the moonshine program such as carbon. I have not conducted any water changes within the last three MS tests. I have a 65 gallon system. Wondering if this is an error or I have no clue what is going on.”

TIA

“I did change my carbon. I changed it August 1st and took the sample August 6th.”

As you can see from above, GAC isn’t always our best friend especially when corals are already stressed.