Interceptor, Ivermectin, & Coral Boring Spionid Worms.

[Reefahholic]

I am not a good example for this treatment as I did not treat as someone normally would. I just wanted to let others know the experience I had but would not recommend anyone to do what I did.

So how many coral losses total?

Also, did you find it made like oil slick or weird texture on the water surface that was hard to dissipate? Definitely makes some crazy bubbles and skimmer go nuts. I think that is more intense with very high doses. Does carbon help the water get back to normal and break down the medication or did you run carbon at all?

 

[Reefahholic]

This right here makes you want to take the risk.

 

[Reefahholic]

Also, here’s an interesting dosing guide below. Why are we using 15mL to 100/G in-tank treatment, or something crazy high like that. That kind of potency should only be used as a dip when corals can be removed from the system. I think we’re severely overdosing this medication.

You can imagine why the fish are dying. We need to find the sweet spot for Spionid and possibly a weak enough dose where the majority of fish won’t die, but again I’d pull the fish if at all possible.

Crazy that my friend didn’t loose all his fish. He said the Wrasse’s were the only ones severely affected.

See below:

I use 60mL on my tank. My tank 330 gallons. I use 4mL to 100/L. About 16mL to 100/G.

Wrasse lying on the floor and breathing, I had 3 wrasse, 1 died, 2 recovered after 2 days.

I don’t have bug or AEFW. But worm or Spionid dead. Fish at my tank and all safe. Only wrasse.

 

[Minifoot77]

So 16ml per 100 gallons only killed one fish for that tank?

 

[JCOLE]

So how many coral losses total?

Also, did you find it made like oil slick or weird texture on the water surface that was hard to dissipate? Definitely makes some crazy bubbles and skimmer go nuts. I think that is more intense with very high doses. Does carbon help the water get back to normal and break down the medication or did you run carbon at all?

I only had one coral loss which was a red dragon. Those are finicky anyways. The rest just lost color and I attibuted that to nutrients. Those corals have since colored back up in my holding system.

Yes, I did notice the residue from the Ivermectin and it did make my skimmer go crazy. I did run carbon afterward which did help to remove it. I removed the medication by the skimmate and performed a couple water changes and then the system stabilized.

 

[Reefahholic]

So 16ml per 100 gallons only killed one fish for that tank?

That’s what he said. Hard to believe. Full write up coming.

Everybody else has lost multiple at that dose. My plan is to net them out and get them in good water in hospital tank. I think the oxygen gets affected, but not sure. Could just be the massive dose of medication that is unneeded. 2mL treats a 220 cow, so I think 1mL to 100/G is enough, but will take longer. If not, you just keep dosing up until you see stuff start to die I guess.

I use a potent dose in the dip, because the corals are outside of the tank and no fish. In the dip you want it to be fast.

 

[Reefahholic]

I only had one coral loss which was a red dragon. Those are finicky anyways. The rest just lost color and I attibuted that to nutrients. Those corals have since colored back up in my holding system.

We do also need to keep in mind that your situation was very different as you ran back-to-back medication in the same day! I think you still came out lucky!

Quotes from JCOLE:

“Due to the cost of Interceptor and me being impatient, I decided to treat my system with Dylox (Trichlorfon) which is essentially Bayer (DO NOT DO THIS WITHOUT RESEARCH AND YOU'RE CRAZY LIKE ME). I figured if I could kill the white bugs that way, then I could cancel the order of Interceptor, which wasn't cheap.”

“Seven hours of Dylox in the tank killed flatworms, and copepods. It did not phase the snails, crabs, worms, spinoids, or fish. I say the Dylox seemed to be a good in tank treatment.”

“Now, the crazy! After seven hours on Saturday, which at the that time was around 7:30pm I dosed my 500 gallon Acropora DT with Ivermectin. I dosed the whole 50mL bottle, which comes out to 1mL per 12-14 gallons of system water.”

Yes, I did notice the residue from the Ivermectin and it did make my skimmer go crazy. I did run carbon afterward which did help to remove it. I removed the medication by the skimmate and performed a couple water changes and then the system stabilized.

Well that’s good! At least the carbon seems to help break down the foam and the medication. How big were the water changes? My friend was doing 20% every 8 hrs.

 

[Reefahholic]

And for those that don’t know…JCOLE has a very nice 500/G Acro dominated DT that he treated with large healthy colonies:

 

[Reefahholic]

I posted a new thread for the Ivermectin (in-tank) treatment only, but will also link here so they will all be connected.

Ivermectin (in-tank) Treatment

Ivermectin used: AGRI-MECTIN 1%

Potency: (1 mL = 10mg)

Expiration date: 11/24

Start Date: Sunday 07/28/24

System info: 105/G Rimless 48x24x21 Planet Aquarium. I dose it as 100/G even including Sump volume.

System Age: 2.6 years.

Rock: Marco Dry Rock. 10lbs of KP Aquatics Starter Rock was added later.

Current Fish: (2) Tomini Tangs, (1) Blue Regal Tang, (1) Azure Damsel, (2) Yellow Tail Damsels, (1) Bicolor Chromis, & (1) Diadema Dottyback.

Test Kits Used:

Hanna Alkalinity, Hanna Phosphorus ULR, Hanna High Range Nitrate, Salifert Calcium, Salifert Magnesium.

ICP: OCEAMO ICP-MS.

Pre-Treatment Values:

Sunday 07/28 3:30pm:
KH = 8.5, P = 0.138, N = 15.8.
7/17 Ca = 440 (ICP-MS result)
7/17 Mg = 1336 (ICP-MS result)

Also have Pre-Treatment ICP-MS (07/17) and Aquabiomics Microbiome Results (Pre/Post) for those interested when they result.

Sunday 8:00pm Pre-check: GAC loaded into fluidized reactor. Fines flushed out. (2) Power-filters deployed on LT and RT side of DT near front glass. 60 gallons of water change water made and ready. Hospital tank setup and ready. Skimmer raised up 6” on (2) different skimmer stands. Valve fully opened and skimmer dialed down. Skimmer cup removed. Siphon hoses positioned close to tank. 8” Filter cup loaded in drain chamber and ready with Sera Filter wool. Extra wool pre-cut and ready. (3) fine mesh fish nets ready near tank.

8:07pm. Dosed 1mL AGRI-MECTIN (1% Ivermectin) into return chamber.

8:17pm. No changes or death noted in first 10 minutes. Skimmer operation is normal. No bubbles in sump.

8:22pm. Dosed another 2mL into return chamber.

8:29pm. Still no changes. Limpet snails are calm. Nothing crawling around. I see some Spionid worms tentacles out like everything is normal. No dead pods or brittle stars yet. I can see my large brittle star under the rocks, and his legs haven’t moved. He appears to be unaffected so far.

8:33pm. Two dead Amphipods noted flying by front glass. Power-filters and Air-stones turned on.

8:35pm. More dead Amphipods and other tiny pods populating in water column and flying around. A couple baby bristle worms also dead floating around. So far only 3mL dosed.

8:37pm. Dosed another 2mL. Skimmer operation ok. No overflowing or excessive bubbles. Fish eating dead pods and worms. Limpet snails still unaffected.

8:50pm. The Limpet snail I’ve been watching by front glass just blew away in the flow. Others are now crawling around. Acropora Florida, WWC Heartbreaker, TGC Cherry Bomb losing PE. Other Tenuis are fine. No slime or cloudy water at all.

8:53pm. Dosed another 2mL.

8:57pm. A few Limpets flying around water column with pods and worms.

8:59pm. Bill Murray loosing PE with mild reduction on other Acro’s. Goni retracted. Rainbow BTA retracted tentacles. Fish doing ok so far.

9:14pm. Dosed another 3mL. 10mL total up until now.

9:46pm. Just finished siphoning the entire tank. A lot of dead Limpet snails on the rocks also. Not one snail left on back glass. Every one of them fell to bottom of tank. Tons of dead worms and various pods now. Skimmer still not overflowing, but bubbles are at top of neck. No bubbles in the sump. I noticed the water did cloud briefly after the last 3mL dose, but is clear now. Looking at Hydros graph, there’s no significant change in pH.

10:02pm. Minimal stuff flying around after siphoning. Water is clear. PE coming back on some Acro’s. Goni is still retracted. Never saw excessive slime from Acro’s. Maybe keeping the skimmer on continuously with air-stones was key, but also spreading out the doses instead of one large dose. I see slime coming from Spionid worm tubes. I don’t see any worms coming out or hanging out at this point. I will likely dose another 2mL here shortly. I want to be sure I get them.

10:15pm. I continue to see more baby bristle worms and Limpets floating around. They must die in stages. There’s other small worms hanging out of the rocks dead. A lot of worms will die inside of the rocks or get pushed under the rocks which is why siphoning is important. Fish are swimming around like normal so far. Currently I’m at 10mL to 100/G volume. This will probably get the Spionid worms, but I’m not sure how long it will take, and I don’t want to leave the Ivermectin in for more than 12-14 hrs or so. So I will probably dose up at little higher. Corals seem to tolerate just fine with minimal stress. Rainbow BTA put tentacles back out.

11:15pm. Dosed another 2mL. Total is 12mL now. Continuing to siphon a few worms and Limpets still floating around. The big Brittle Star is alive and well, but is affected. I transferred him to the Hospital tank. Skimmer foam decreasing a little. It never overflowed. Water is still clear. Minimal stress to Acro’s thus far. Fish are still doing well.

Monday 07/29/24 12:26am. Dosed another 3mL. That’s 15mL total to my 100/G volume now. I will stop the dosing here. Changed Filter Cup wool for 2nd time. Tons of Worms, Pods, Limpets, etc. Fish still ok. Water is clear. Skimmer is ok. No bubbles in sump.

12:55am. Still the same. Corals look fine except for Goni still retracted. Some corals never lost PE. At this point I’m primarily seeing more dead smaller worms than anything. Fish are ok. Water is clear. Still no massive bubbles in the sump like others have reported. Skimmer operation is ok. I’m going to remove Power-filters, Siphon the Drain Chamber before the Filter Cup, check Overflow Boxes for any dead buildup, and siphon the tank one last time.

3:08am. One Yellow Tail Damsel is looking a little drunk in the flow. Definitely affected by medication. Other fish still look normal. Lowered skimmer down from 6” to 3” by taking out one of the skimmer stands (it’s been sitting on two stands). The amount of worms that died is mind boggling. They seem to keep coming in stages. More small worms than anything else. Limpet snails are completely dead. Corals look fine. Rainbow BTA looking normal. I didn’t use the mesh fish nets at all for collecting the die-off. I’m only Siphoning, running Power-Filters, and using the Filter Cup with wool to catch all the death coming down overflow to drain section. I siphon into the filter cup with return pumps on. So far the Siphon hose has been the best tool for clean up, with the Filter Cup being second. Power-Filters do well, but need to be wrapped thin/loose for good sucking power. They are better for smaller particles.

4:48am. I noticed a second Brittle Star finally get stunned enough to fall out from behind my inside Overflow Box. I relocated him to the Hospital tank. The Spionid worms are putting out slime, but I don’t see any hanging out of their dirt tubes yet or any that are dead. They’re completely retracted. I did see a white crab that I’ve never seen before. Apparently he wasn’t affected much, because he darted off quickly when he saw the flashlight. The Fish are still ok excluding the one Yellow Tail Damsel. I may need to remove him. Going to leave the medication in a little longer and go to sleep. No GAC or water changes yet. Corals look fine. Most have good PE, or ever better than before the treatment. A few maybe look slightly retracted.

6:00am. I’m gonna call it for now. I need to sleep a few hours, and then assess when to start GAC, and do a water change.

10:09am. Corals still look good. No color loss. Still have good PE. The Goni is the only coral that looks cranky with completely retracted polyps. Fish are all acting normal except for the one Yellow Tail Damsel is getting a little weak and looks drunk, but still able to swim ok. I don’t see any Spionid worms hanging out of their tubes or dead. Maybe 15mL to 100/G wasn’t enough, but it’s too early to call. I will turn on GAC now, and call this treatment done. It’s been 14 hrs. I’ll also perform a 20% water change shortly.

10:27am. I cut the lights off since I’ve had them on all night at about 20% trying to observe the tank. I’ll turn them on again at 1:30pm, and let them run to 9pm. Tomorrow I’ll resume a normal schedule and photo period. I removed my auto-feeder so the system will not be fed today. GAC is running with MJ-1200 feeding the BRS mini reactor.

11:00am. Performed 20% water change. Relocated drunk Yellow Tail Damsel to Hospital tank so that he doesn’t get sucked into a wave-maker. He is looking critical now.

3:40pm. Relocated a second Azure Damsel to the Hospital tank that was near bottom LT corner. The first Yellow Tail Damsel is looking extremely weak and barely swimming around despite no medication in Hospital tank. He’s bobbing around like a cork near the surface. Other fish in DT are doing ok so far, but I noticed they’re swimming more near the bottom of the tank which suggests they’re also feeling the effects of the medication. I do not believe this is an oxygenation issue now as I have my Deltec skimmer running, dual air-stones, dual return pumps. One of the power-filters is also breaking and rolling the surface of the water. Oxygenation and aeration are strong. This is more likely from overdosing Ivermectin. 150mg is a lot of medication.

4:52pm. Fish still acting a little weird. They are near the bottom of the tank. Will do another 30% water change. I haven’t replaced the GAC yet.

5:00pm. Tested KH, P, and N. P = 0.009 ppm, N = 10.1, KH = 8.8 (P < by 0.13 ppm, N < by 5.70 ppm, KH > by 0.3). The Phosphate plummeted with the water changes and medication combined.

6:29pm. Doubled PO4 dose. Turned down CaRx. The fish look more active after the 2nd water change, and swimming higher in the tank. The Goni still doesn’t look normal. Polyps are way less extended than usual. Looks very unhappy.

10:47pm. Hanna Phosphorus ULR test result = 0 ppm (wife tested). Had her double PO4 dose again. Currently dosing 0.12ppm Phos -N which is super rich and the bioavailable. I cannot afford to do any other water changes at this point until P starts to come up. So whatever medication is left in the tank will be staying there unless there’s an emergency. I’m a bit nervous at this point about the P. The wifey will test P here in a few hours. Hoping to get a value other than 0.

Tuesday 07/30/24 1:27am. P = 4 ppb or 0.012 ppm. Will test again when I get home around 7:30am, and tweak the dose if needed.

7:40am. P = 15 ppb or 0.046 ppm (> by 0.034 ppm). A small feather duster is flying around the tank. Apparently Ivermectin can kill those too. My 4 small JF Raja frags look incredible this morning. Better than I’ve ever seen them. All the eyes are very pronounced. Color is popping. However, the Goni still doesn’t look good. The remaining fish look better now. It’s been almost 24 hrs since the first Damsel went into the HT, and that fish is still as weak as it was when it first went in. This medication is obviously very harsh on some fish (we knew that already), and they don’t recover easily or quickly- even if removed from the medication. Both are still alive, but the first Damsel is still swimming vertically at surface, and the other has not moved. He is sitting on the bottom beside a PVC fitting. Both have labored breathing, are extremely weak, but are still alive.

8:24am N = 7.4 ppm (< by 2.70 ppm). Will hold here since P is low, and I expect a possible N spike soon, but we will see. I siphoned out everything previously, and siphoned the tank again this morning. I rechecked the drain and skimmer chambers. Tank is still fairly clean. I got most of the death.

8:46am. KH = 9.1 (> 0.3). Will turn down CaRx again.

4:50pm. P = 0.070 (> 0.02) N = 6.6 (< 0.80), KH = 8.8 (< 0.3). Ca = 430 (< 10), Mg = 1320 (< 16). Last values for Ca and Mg were on 07/17 from ICP results. Damsels are finally starting to recover. Corals look good, but not as good as normal due to the Water Changes, GAC, and crashing Phosphate. I’m unsure if the Ivermectin has a direct effect on Phosphate or if it’s because there’s a massive reduction of snails, worms, pods, or microorganisms contributing to the nutrient cycle. Obviously the water changes and GAC had an impact on N&P, but I don’t believe it would have dropped the P to zero. I was already dosing P prior to the treatment. This same effect happened to JCOLE (nutrients bottomed out). I’m dosing up Phosphate aggressively, but this could have easily crashed the system had I not taken action quickly. Definitely something to watch out for, but every system is different, and the opposite effect could happen where nutrients spike through the roof. I was prepared to act in either direction. I believe that is key when you’re doing crazy treatments like this. The glass is clean with very light tan biofilm when I pass the algae scraper, water is crystal clear from the GAC so for sure it’s working well. The system looks healthy and stable ATM, but it’s running too clean!

Wednesday 7/31/24 3:07am. Searching very carefully with a 300 lumen LED flashlight with all the lights off, and there’s no sign of the Spionid worms. None of their tentacles are out anywhere on the rocks or at the base of the corals. They slime at night or in the early morning, but there is no slime anymore. Nothing at all. I do see a lot of tubes with what appears to be a white/tan color worm hanging out, but not fully out, only like 1-2 cm. I think maybe they’re dead. Hard to say, but it’s looking promising. I’m honestly surprised, because I thought maybe the dose wasn’t potent enough to kill them. I’ll continue to monitor. One thing to note is that even though I nuked 95% of the Limpet population (which feels absolutely incredible to get all of those out of here), there are still about 5% that will survive as they climb out of the water in the moist drain section, climb up on the drain pipes, and I’ve also noticed some out of the water in the rear overflow box. However, a small 2-3mL dose later on should decimate the survivors if you push them into the water prior to treatment. It will take months or even a year for their numbers to ever get back anywhere close to where they were. There were at least 1,000+ Limpet snails in here prior to treatment. I also noticed that some worms did survive that were under my starboard. Not many though. So there could still be a few that are able to repopulate in the system. A second treatment later would likely wipe them all out. Dosed 5mL of CRT, and 1ppm of Nitrogen. Topped off my brute’s, and mixed up fresh water change water just to be safe.

11:10am KH = 9.0 (> 0.2), P = 0.162 (> 0.09), N = 8.3 (> 1.70).

Collected and sent OCEAMO ICP-MS to check if trace elements are rising. I expect a rise due to the medication obviously, but also from the instability of the Water Changes, GAC, and reduced KH consumption. Performed 20% water change after testing and collecting ICP sample. Replaced GAC. Goni was completely retracted and made me paranoid. That’s 70% of the water changed now. I do 20%, 30%, and now another 20%. All the other corals looking good, but some have a little less PE this morning. I see some pellets floating around also. It appears the fish aren’t eating. I will remove the feeder again. Dosed another 1 ppm of Nitrogen after the water change. Phos -N dose reduced to .08 ppm daily (< .04). Tested higher due to a.m. hours.

5:40pm. KH = 8.6 (< 0.40), P = 0.177 (< 0.05), N = 8.0 (< 0.30). GAC turned OFF! Tank running too clean with the water changes and fresh GAC. It’s just too much. PE is reduced or retracted on several Acro’s. I feel like the Water Changes and GAC are more harmful than the Ivermectin treatment itself! Water is clear, but you can definitely see the start of an imbalance in the tank after this last Water Change/ GAC change. The rocks and frag plugs are starting to display a brown color. Ostreopsis Dino’s are becoming more visible. On a positive note, the Spionid worms appear dead! Zero tentacles out. Even their dirt tubes look smaller and distorted. I cut some tubes off, and they haven’t rebuilt them yet. They’re usually quick to do that. Surprisingly, the second Azure Damsel died in the HT. He did not look that bad, and seemed to be doing well when I relocated him to the HT. He wasn’t that bad at all. The first Yellow Tail Damsel that I relocated was much worse, but seems to have recovered now. I fully expected the first Damsel to die, and this Azure to pull through. That was completely unexpected. Might be due to exposure time.?

Thursday 08/01/24 12:13am. KH = 8.6 (==), P = 0.159 (> 0.04), N = 8.8 (> 0.80).

7:11am. Fish are eating pellets again this morning, and looking healthy. Some corals still have moderate PE reduction. GAC remains OFF. The lack of PE has me a little nervous. I don’t like the system running this clean or with this much intervention. Corals are looking OK. None of the Acro’s are turning pale. So that is a good sign. I’ll avoid water changes for now, but will eventually restart GAC later on when the system fully recovers, and PE is back to normal. Goni is still retracted. Rainbow BTA looks normal. Very light tan biofilm on glass. The algae scraper is sliding smoothly. Nutrients are available. I dosed 1mL of Amino’s, 5 drops of Vitamins, 1mL of Liqui-Mud, and fed 5mL of CRT. Corals should pull through.

7:35am. KH = 8.8 (> 0.20), P = 0.132 (< 0.03), N = 8.6 (< 0.20), Ca = 430 (==), Mg = 1320 (==). Dosed 1 ppm Nitrogen. Phos -N increased back to 0.12 ppm daily. (This dry rock system loves higher P in the 0.15- 0.2+ range). I know that probably sounds crazy to many of you, but dry rock can be a different beast.

5:30pm. KH = 8.4 (< 0.40), P = 0.150 (> 0.20), N = 9.2 (> 0.60). Water crystal clear from the higher P dosing. Corals doing better. Still reduced PE on some Acro’s. GAC remains OFF. Goni still retracted and cranky. Ostreopsis Dino’s enjoying the destabilization. Fish doing well. Brown algae is developing on the rocks and plugs. Glass is relatively clean. There’s a very light tan biofilm. Shouldn’t take long for the tank to start to stabilize and balance again. Dosed 1 ppm of Nitrogen. Will keep Phos -N dose the same.

I’ll stop documenting for now, but will continue for my personal use as the tank comes back into balance. If anybody has questions, please feel free to reach out. If I do a 2nd treatment, I’d likely try about 5-10mL per 100/G, and start with 2-3mL. I just didn’t want to waste my time with a treatment like this, and not kill my intended target. That is why I dosed up to 15mL. At this point it appears that 15mL per 100/G will kill Coral Boring Spionid Worms, and about everything else without any problem’s. However, I think it’s likely excessive, and that a smaller dose will accomplish the same results. The question becomes how long to leave it in the system or when to do a water change.? Ivermectin seems to work in waves. It’s a very interesting medication. I’ll post the Pre/Post Aquabiomics Microbiome results soon. Will also share the ICP-MS I sent yesterday when that results this coming up week around Wednesday or Thursday (08-07 - 08-08).

Link to Ivermectin only thread:

1% Ivermectin (in-tank) Treatment for Coral Boring Spionid Worms

Disclaimer: Do not try this at home. It’s not reef safe. I will not take any responsibility for anyone crashing their system. I DO NOT recommend anybody try this. :-) Ivermectin used: AGRI-MECTIN 1% Potency: (1 mL = 10mg) Expiration date: 11/24 Start Date: Sunday 07/28/24 System info: 105/G...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[fushi]

https://www.frdc.com.au/sites/default/files/products/1998-307-DLD.pdf

This is an interesting study comparing hydrogen peroxide, formalin, ivermectin, and air drying on spionid worms.

 

[Reefahholic]

Here’s the modified dip note. There was an error when multiplying 0.4 vs .04 for a drop.


Ivermectin Dip:
(Dip time = 1 Hour)

The dose I’m currently using for the frags is about 8-9 drops to 473mL which is 1/8 of a gallon or 1 pint. Rinsing well afterwards.

The dose I’ve been using with excellent results is .32mL of 1% Ivermectin per 1/G or 8-9 drops per 473mL. Dip for 1hr.

1 gallon = 3,785.41 mL approximately

If you divide 3785.41 by 8 = 473.17mL. Hence the 473mL volume I dip in.

One drop is usually defined as .03-.05 mL depending on the density/liquid. If we count 1 drop as 0.04mL (middle of the road), and multiply that by 8….we get .32mL.

The dose is .32 mL of 1% Ivermectin per gallon or approximately 8-9 drops per 473mL. This is more than double what I treated my tank with at 15mL per 100/G volume.

This dip dose would equate to 32mL per 100/G. The Dip kills them all dead in 1 hour. Crazy high dose!

The In-tank treatment was 15mL per 100/G. That dose did nuke 98% of the Spionid worms when left in for 14 hours.

A 220 lb cow would only get 2mL.