OP
OP
Very! 8-9 drops per 473 mL of tank water. 45 min to 1 hr.
1% Ivermectin (in-tank) Treatment for Coral Boring Spionid Worms
- Thread starter Reefahholic
- Start date
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Very! 8-9 drops per 473 mL of tank water. 45 min to 1 hr.
Have you tried it without the stir rod reefaholic? Or does the water agitation help keep the spionids out of their tube's for the IVermectin to reach them? I always used the stir rod per your initial experiment.
OP
OP
Yes I have. You definitely want to achieve decent flow around the coral or frag.
OP
OP
Here’s more documentation picking up from where I left off on Thursday 08/01:
Friday 08/02/24 7:26am. KH = 8.7 (> 0.30), P = 0.196 (> 0.05). Strawberry Shortcake, Vivid’s Razzmatazz, ARC Master Yoda, TGC Orange Creamsicle, Garf Bonsai, ACI Toxic Acropora Florida, CC Voodoo Majick, ORA Pearlberry, TSA Dan Ackroyd, Neon Lime Green Monti Cap have all lost some color. Goni is still fully retracted. On the flip side, the TSA Fruity Pebbles has active growth. It’s burning the coralline off the rocks. Go figure. All the other Acro’s look about the same color. Fish are ok. Would love to start the GAC again, but I’m afraid it will do more harm than good right now. I transferred the Yellow Tail Damsel back into the DT.
11:44am. Turned down Radion’s to 50% 20K with Haldies. No white. Some Acro’s looking too dry and getting pale. Others look fine. Rainbow BTA got irritated and walked. I hate to reduce the light intensity, but I think it’s too much given the current condition of the coral’s due to treatment, water changes, etc. There’s probably like 3mL of ivermectin still active in the system, but that’s just a guess judging by how the Goni looks. I hope it will dissipate over the next few days because I’ve already changed 70% of the water.
12:15pm. Performed 10% water change. That’s 80% of the total volume changed. I put NO3 back on the GHL @ 2 ppm daily. Reduced Fluoride dose by 1/2. Dosed 2mL Amino’s, Fed 10mL of CRT, dosed 6 drops of Vitamins.
5:30pm: KH = 8.6 (< 0.10), P = 0.159 (< 0.04), N = 9.5 (> 0.30).
10:26pm. I observed 2-3 small bristle worms coming out from under the Starboard by the back glass as I was looking at the corals with my flashlight. So there are still a very small number of worms alive that can repopulate. This is also a good sign as the medication may not be very active or strong right now like I thought, because at 3mL of Ivermectin the worms started dying. The ARC Master Yoda and Strawberry Shortcake (previously struggling) appear to be the worst at this point. The entire base is pale on the Yoda, and it has these little white dots all over the base that almost look like little menstrual filament dots or something. Not sure if that is from stress or what. I saw the same thing on a few other corals yesterday, but it went away. Target Fed the corals CRT and dosed 6 drops of Vitamins.
Saturday 08/03/24 1:31pm. Rainbow BTA looks small and retracted. He’s walked twice now. Most of the corals seem to be doing ok. Some still have reduced PE while others have better PE. About 10 pieces have pale color, but nothing has browned out yet. The Goni is in a tight ball. Definitely the most affected coral in the system. I did target feed it last night and got a decent response. The pale corals also showed a nice feeding response, so I don’t think they’re too damaged or irritated. I’m auto dosing nutrients, and trying to let the system recover w/o intervening too much. I have another 10% water change mixed and ready to go. GAC remains off. One of my Halide ballast has stopped working. Always something. Another $240 for that. Will test parameters before I leave for work later this evening. The Yellow Tail Damsel is still alive and doing well in the DT. Looks like he’s made a full recovery. At this point there has only been one fish loss (Azure Damsel).
5:30pm. KH = 8.6, P = 0.181, N = 10.9
Sunday 08/04/24 7:55am. Performed a 10% Water Change after noticing a Lime Green Monti Cap with some STN on top middle in small spots. The Red Monti Cap beside it looks ok. Acro’s look about the same. Some have good PE while others don’t. It’s really a mixed bag. About 10 pieces are pale and faded. Fish are still ok. Goni is still in a tight ball. There’s definitely a significant imbalance in the tank. Ostreopsis Dino’s and Cyano flaring, but it’s due to feeding rich feeds, Amino’s, Vitamins, Supplements, Water Changes, etc…trying to keep the corals happy. Will test this evening when I wake up.
5:00pm. KH = 8.7, P = 0.184, N = 10.6. Goni is starting to barely put out some polyps. Anemone looks small and retracted. I’ve noticed the ACI Toxic Acropora Florida seems to be loosing more color, and PE hasn’t come back at all yet. It is now less green than the Bali Green Slimer. All the other Acro’s ok, but some lost color and have less PE as I’ve already mentioned while others seem unaffected. The Lime Green Monti Cap continues to STN further. So far it’s the only coral.
Friday 08/02/24 7:26am. KH = 8.7 (> 0.30), P = 0.196 (> 0.05). Strawberry Shortcake, Vivid’s Razzmatazz, ARC Master Yoda, TGC Orange Creamsicle, Garf Bonsai, ACI Toxic Acropora Florida, CC Voodoo Majick, ORA Pearlberry, TSA Dan Ackroyd, Neon Lime Green Monti Cap have all lost some color. Goni is still fully retracted. On the flip side, the TSA Fruity Pebbles has active growth. It’s burning the coralline off the rocks. Go figure. All the other Acro’s look about the same color. Fish are ok. Would love to start the GAC again, but I’m afraid it will do more harm than good right now. I transferred the Yellow Tail Damsel back into the DT.
11:44am. Turned down Radion’s to 50% 20K with Haldies. No white. Some Acro’s looking too dry and getting pale. Others look fine. Rainbow BTA got irritated and walked. I hate to reduce the light intensity, but I think it’s too much given the current condition of the coral’s due to treatment, water changes, etc. There’s probably like 3mL of ivermectin still active in the system, but that’s just a guess judging by how the Goni looks. I hope it will dissipate over the next few days because I’ve already changed 70% of the water.
12:15pm. Performed 10% water change. That’s 80% of the total volume changed. I put NO3 back on the GHL @ 2 ppm daily. Reduced Fluoride dose by 1/2. Dosed 2mL Amino’s, Fed 10mL of CRT, dosed 6 drops of Vitamins.
5:30pm: KH = 8.6 (< 0.10), P = 0.159 (< 0.04), N = 9.5 (> 0.30).
10:26pm. I observed 2-3 small bristle worms coming out from under the Starboard by the back glass as I was looking at the corals with my flashlight. So there are still a very small number of worms alive that can repopulate. This is also a good sign as the medication may not be very active or strong right now like I thought, because at 3mL of Ivermectin the worms started dying. The ARC Master Yoda and Strawberry Shortcake (previously struggling) appear to be the worst at this point. The entire base is pale on the Yoda, and it has these little white dots all over the base that almost look like little menstrual filament dots or something. Not sure if that is from stress or what. I saw the same thing on a few other corals yesterday, but it went away. Target Fed the corals CRT and dosed 6 drops of Vitamins.
Saturday 08/03/24 1:31pm. Rainbow BTA looks small and retracted. He’s walked twice now. Most of the corals seem to be doing ok. Some still have reduced PE while others have better PE. About 10 pieces have pale color, but nothing has browned out yet. The Goni is in a tight ball. Definitely the most affected coral in the system. I did target feed it last night and got a decent response. The pale corals also showed a nice feeding response, so I don’t think they’re too damaged or irritated. I’m auto dosing nutrients, and trying to let the system recover w/o intervening too much. I have another 10% water change mixed and ready to go. GAC remains off. One of my Halide ballast has stopped working. Always something. Another $240 for that. Will test parameters before I leave for work later this evening. The Yellow Tail Damsel is still alive and doing well in the DT. Looks like he’s made a full recovery. At this point there has only been one fish loss (Azure Damsel).
5:30pm. KH = 8.6, P = 0.181, N = 10.9
Sunday 08/04/24 7:55am. Performed a 10% Water Change after noticing a Lime Green Monti Cap with some STN on top middle in small spots. The Red Monti Cap beside it looks ok. Acro’s look about the same. Some have good PE while others don’t. It’s really a mixed bag. About 10 pieces are pale and faded. Fish are still ok. Goni is still in a tight ball. There’s definitely a significant imbalance in the tank. Ostreopsis Dino’s and Cyano flaring, but it’s due to feeding rich feeds, Amino’s, Vitamins, Supplements, Water Changes, etc…trying to keep the corals happy. Will test this evening when I wake up.
5:00pm. KH = 8.7, P = 0.184, N = 10.6. Goni is starting to barely put out some polyps. Anemone looks small and retracted. I’ve noticed the ACI Toxic Acropora Florida seems to be loosing more color, and PE hasn’t come back at all yet. It is now less green than the Bali Green Slimer. All the other Acro’s ok, but some lost color and have less PE as I’ve already mentioned while others seem unaffected. The Lime Green Monti Cap continues to STN further. So far it’s the only coral.
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Dburr1014
10K Club member
@Reefahholic
I posted this on the other thread, have you thought about putting a UV on the system? It seems to degrade with UV.
I posted this on the other thread, have you thought about putting a UV on the system? It seems to degrade with UV.
OP
OP
I saw that. I may pull mine out of the garage tonight. Thx for sharing!
Here’s the latest:
Monday 08/05/24 1:50am. Lime Green Monti RTN’ing. I trashed it, but have a small backup frag. The Strawberry Shortcake is very pale, and I’m afraid it could be next. It was previously burnt, and was trying to recover, and already in poor health. The ARC Master Yoda looks very pale also. Those two Acro’s look the worst. Beyond those I’d guess the ACI Toxic Acropora Florida and the CC Voodoo Majick. Both are showing significant color loss. On a positive note, the Goni is finally starting to extend its polyps slightly.
5:21pm. KH = 8.8, P = 0.248, N = 11.6. Phos -N dose reduced by 65%. Goni is looking slightly better. Putting out about an inch of tentacles. Fish are doing really well. No Acro’s have STN or RTN…”YET”, but I suspect a few will soon. Corals look about the same. Will likely keep doing 10% water changes about every 4 days to keep flushing the system until I feel things are looking like they should. Honestly, I’m scared to turn on the GAC as I feel the system will run too clean right now. It’s obviously important to keep dosing back nutrients, but also too take care of nutritional needs when the corals are in poor health and stressed. In addition to the regular nutrient dosing and other vitamins, amino’s, etc., I’ve of course been maintaining all the trace element dosing, but I’ve reduced the doses according to the KH consumption. I’m hoping the majority of the corals will be strong enough to pull through. I’ll probably lose a few of the weaker pieces that were already struggling beforehand, but that’s ok. 15mL per 100/G was obviously too potent in this tank (might be different in another), but I know for sure it kills Spionid worms at that dose now. In the future I’d try 3-5 mL and leave it in for 24 hrs. Then flush the system. Another ICP-MS will result 08/07-08/08. Will correct all elements, and check trace targets. Sending another in a week to follow up again.
Tuesday 08/06/24 7:20am. Sadly, the first Acro STN today (Day 10). The ACI Toxic Acropora Florida is starting to STN from two tips, and also in the middle of one branch (always the one you love). The Florida started to take a hard turn about the 6th day (08/02), by the 8th day (08/04), it got very pale, and PE became nonexistent. I just fragged two branches, maybe I’ll get lucky, but I doubt it. Also noticing the JF Fox Flame yellow tips are fading out. This could be partially due to turning down the light intensity (maybe a bad idea), and the fact that one of the Halide ballast went out. Either way, it’s definitely not helping the situation. Thankfully, the replacement ballast will be here in 2 days. Today I will change the program back to the original light intensity. The other three corals that look really rough are the Strawberry Shortcake, ARC Master Yoda, and CC Voodoo Majick. The menstrual filaments on the Shortcake are still extremely active though, but it’s super pale. The Voodoo Majick also got really pale at the base, but the top looks ok. The Yoda was putting out new growth everywhere, but the entire piece is very pale now. Everything else looks fairly decent for now, but the Goni is back in a tight ball with zero polyps out.
7:56am. P = 0.270 ppm.
These pictures below are all in very low white light at 7:30 - 8:00am in the morning to show the actual pale colors of these pieces.
Below is a prior picture of the Acropora Florida to illustrate pale color and PE reduction.
Excellent feeding response here:
Below are pics prior to treatment. Top pic was after I burnt it. Bottom was weeks later after it was trying to recover being fed CRT.
Do keep in mind that these were the most effected corals in the tank, and if I only loose 2-3 out of 45 spices of Acro’s it’s still a win win for me to completely eradicate all the Spionid worms from the system. I do love the challenge, and feel that I can easily get the tank back on track here soon.
We’ll just have to see how many more corals will check out along the way. I’m honestly not expecting more than 3 more at this point. Only those that became super pale with moderate to severe PE reduction.
Dburr1014
10K Club member
Better to dim the lights and have everything Brown out then to keep the light intensity and everything stn.
At least with the Browning they're still alive and when you remove all the medication they will come back. A lot of my stuff browned out and I slowly ramped up my lights and everything is starting to look really colorful now. I dosed my rock mid May.
At least with the Browning they're still alive and when you remove all the medication they will come back. A lot of my stuff browned out and I slowly ramped up my lights and everything is starting to look really colorful now. I dosed my rock mid May.
OP
OP
I used to think the same. I’ve always heard you can ramp down fast, but you can only go up slowly. Ramping up very slow is always ideal, but ramping down quickly is honestly a myth depending on the par levels in the system. If you’re sitting at 450- 500 PAR, and you go down to 200-250 immediately with a change in spectrum, some acro’s getting that kind of light energy will STN/RTN. I’ve had it happen before.
When all that light intensity immediately stops that dramatically, some species can’t tolerate it well. That said, the pale corals will tolerate the less harsh light better for sure. I think they would appreciate the reduced PAR in a 20K spectrum rather than 14K 450+ PAR, but most of the corals aren’t affected like the ones above. So instead of working backwards and having to work my way back up to that higher intensity again, I’ll probably just leave it alone. The pieces that are bad will likely check out anyway. I’ll probably just throw the UV in there and run it for 24-48 hrs and see how the Goni looks or if the corals appear to get better. Maybe it will dissipate more Ivermectin, but it’s hard to know for sure if there’s still a lot in the system, or if this was only due to the initial shock of the 15mL dose. My gut is telling me there’s a low level, but judging by the worms, fish, etc…it’s probably very low and dissipating daily and with each 10% water change I’m hopefully going to cross the border soon. It’s kinda hard to judge off the Goni alone. It could just be really affected, damaged, and irritated and may never recover. Or it could be reacting to a small to moderate level of ivermectin still in the tank. Tweaks my brain for sure.
OP
OP
New ICP-MS results are in. Collected 4 days after start of Treatment. You can also go back and look at my Hanna Results for the date of this analysis and see that my values are very close to ICP-MS results considering a little time of day difference.
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OP
OP
Also…
Nothing like "check is in the mail". Thanks again.
OP
OP
A study published in Drug Development and Industrial Pharmacy found an average of 98.72% of medications were adsorbed by activated carbon within 8 hours and continued to do so over time. At the end of the 28-day study, more than 99.99% of all drugs were deactivated.
Therefore, it can be concluded that the adsorption of ivermectin is highly sensitive to changes in pH, being favored in conditions close to neutrality. Commercial activated charcoal was highly efficient in removing the studied compound showing high affinity with very fast kinetics and a good performance in continuous operation mode.
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OP
OP
Some interesting data and what I believe I’m seeing currently in my system. Although others did not report this…I feel that Ivermectin is not easily removed even after several water changes. I feel like the below is very accurate:
“IVM was quickly and widely distributed into the whole aquatic system in one day, and then was highly accumulated in organisms resulting in long-term residues. IVM was exchanged multiple times between the different media, which caused continuous fluctuations in the concentration of IVM in the water and sediment. It was worth noting that there was a second peak value of IVM in the fish and invertebrates after 30 days. The environmental fate of the IVM in the aquatic micro-ecological system showed that the drug was transferred from the fish to aquatic plants in the first seven days, and then gathered in the water and sediment, finally accumulating in the invertebrates. Our results indicated that an effective aquatic micro-ecological system was successfully established, and it could be applied to the study the environmental fate of IVM, which will aid the scientific use of this anti-parasitic agent during aquaculture.”
Also important to note:
“IVM degradation by UV/TiO2and UV/TiO2/H2O2 was highly effective in water.”
I’m not sure that a regular UV will be as effective without TiO2 (not even sure what TiO2 is or if it’s reef safe), but I’m definitely going to pull the UV out tonight and get it on the system for 24-48 hrs and find out. As mentioned before by @Dburr1014 it does seem that UV helps with degradation. This might be a way to remove long-term residuals w/o doing so many water changes which cause further instability, reduce nutrients, etc. I know in my system the Ivermectin never spiked my nutrients, but plummeted my phosphate in particular which I quickly countered to make sure the corals didn’t starve. It also dropped my nitrogen as well, but it didn’t bottom out.
“IVM was quickly and widely distributed into the whole aquatic system in one day, and then was highly accumulated in organisms resulting in long-term residues. IVM was exchanged multiple times between the different media, which caused continuous fluctuations in the concentration of IVM in the water and sediment. It was worth noting that there was a second peak value of IVM in the fish and invertebrates after 30 days. The environmental fate of the IVM in the aquatic micro-ecological system showed that the drug was transferred from the fish to aquatic plants in the first seven days, and then gathered in the water and sediment, finally accumulating in the invertebrates. Our results indicated that an effective aquatic micro-ecological system was successfully established, and it could be applied to the study the environmental fate of IVM, which will aid the scientific use of this anti-parasitic agent during aquaculture.”
Also important to note:
“IVM degradation by UV/TiO2and UV/TiO2/H2O2 was highly effective in water.”
I’m not sure that a regular UV will be as effective without TiO2 (not even sure what TiO2 is or if it’s reef safe), but I’m definitely going to pull the UV out tonight and get it on the system for 24-48 hrs and find out. As mentioned before by @Dburr1014 it does seem that UV helps with degradation. This might be a way to remove long-term residuals w/o doing so many water changes which cause further instability, reduce nutrients, etc. I know in my system the Ivermectin never spiked my nutrients, but plummeted my phosphate in particular which I quickly countered to make sure the corals didn’t starve. It also dropped my nitrogen as well, but it didn’t bottom out.
Dburr1014
10K Club member
Ti02, titainium dioxide.
Interesting, not sure of the application in this scenario of removing ivermectin.
It must somehow bind to it.
en.wikipedia.org
www.healthline.com
Interesting, not sure of the application in this scenario of removing ivermectin.
It must somehow bind to it.
Titanium dioxide - Wikipedia
Titanium Dioxide in Food — Should You Be Concerned?
Titanium dioxide is an odorless powder added to foods and over-the-counter products to enhance their white color or opacity. Learn uses, benefits, and safety of titanium dioxide.
www.healthline.com
OP
OP
Ti02, titainium dioxide.
Interesting, not sure of the application in this scenario of removing ivermectin.
It must somehow bind to it.
Titanium dioxide - Wikipedia
Titanium Dioxide in Food — Should You Be Concerned?
Titanium dioxide is an odorless powder added to foods and over-the-counter products to enhance their white color or opacity. Learn uses, benefits, and safety of titanium dioxide.
I wonder how they figured that out or if it’s reef safe. Sounds like they have a food grade version. Interesting.
Definitely going to get the UV of the garage as soon as I wake up. I hope I didn’t leave it dirty.
Another thing that would be interesting would be to isolate the Goni in a separate tank to see if it gets PE back. If not, maybe it’s just damaged so bad that it will take weeks or months. If it didn’t get PE back, that could indicate there’s still Ivermectin lingering in the my DT and that’s why it’s stayed retracted and ticked off. I’m really interested to see what the UV will do. Day 13 and look at it. Gezz. I mean sure seems like something is irritating it. It’s just hard to believe, because I’ve changed so much water. There’s got to be ivermectin that’s leaching out from the rocks.
Dburr1014
10K Club member
I laughed when I read this, are you typing in your sleep? LOL
Hope you don't lose that goni, nice piece!
I did lose my BC bloodbank and Oregon tort with my dips. They were small but just starting to grow better. Sucks but are replaceable.
OP
OP
No, but was about to leave a 12hr night shift, and was thinking what I’m going to do when I wake up this evening.
Which dip?
OP
OP
Man that’s crazy. I’ve dipped so many Acro’s and all of them do amazing in Ivermectin. Even at 100x the concentration I used in my DT. My Oregon Tort has been dipped like 3-5x and it’s still going strong.
I do find that when I dip smaller nubs I get locally will usually check out with any dip if I’m too aggressive, or dip back to back or for too long. Some fresh cuts obviously won’t tolerate it or pieces that are 1” or less. Wish I had a frag system to throw those small pieces in to let them acclimate or recover especially if fresh cuts. No choice though.
Dburr1014
10K Club member
Yeah, it was most likely entirely my fault I lost them. It was the second round and I didn't change out the rinse water. I'm pretty sure from all the die off in the first dip round, the ammonia was crazy high. Live and learn.
I documented it in the other spionid worm post that you linked when I did it.
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