Urgent. Please Help

[Lennie]

Hello friends

My smaller sized clownfish had sort of heavy breathing/a bit too much gill movement and stringy white poop but had nice activity level and eating. HE started swimming weirdly today and breathing way too heavily. Also did not show much interest to food for the first time. They have been with me for a month if Im not mistaken.

Around 4-5 days ago, I started using kanaplex and metrodinazole in food. In this routine:

Morning: Kanaplex mixed with NLS and soaked with garlic guard.

Midday: Tropical Marin soft formula ( It has probiotic called Bacillus Subtilis. I read scientific papers on it and looks pretty good. I assumed this would help with potential internal issues in this treatment journey)

In the evening: Flagyl (Metronidazole) mixed with NLS pellets and soaked with garlic guard.

They eat all of them well.


I run carbon in my filter to make sure it is cleaned up if any food leaches medicine.



This morning, he seems to start losing majority of his activity and heavy breathing more. What should I do? Please help

I have nitrofurazone, RODI for freshwater dip, malachite green+formaldehyde combined together, flagyl(metronidazole) and kanaplex. No other medicines are available. I have a bit of praziquantel but It has been a while since I used it when I got it from my vet, so it might have lost its activity level in a big degree


The tank is cycled and has been running around 2.5 months. I only have two clownfish in it, keep up with weekly water changes around %15. No agression between the two other than randomly fighting for food

Video under both blue and white light:

 

[Lennie]

I saw methylene dip methods of Humblefish and wanted to give a 30min bath in a container instead of waiting doing nothing while waiting for a response.

I would appreciate any further suggestions.

After lights are on, he started spending ttime on the surface. But the other clownfish is totally fine, so are anemones. Only this guy has slightly open gills, weird swimming, and spending time at surface now.

@Jay Hemdal Dear Jay, I saw you helping with diseases and having a disease treament guide. I would appreciate if you can check this situation. Thank you

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Rapid breathing can indicate internal or external issues. When the invertebrates in the tank are fine, it is usually a disease issue, ruling out water quality problems. With only one fish affected, it can be an internal issue, but it can also be that the other fish just hasn't contracted the problem yet.

Methylene blue dip is an old school, temporary treatment for external protozoans. The dose for it must be calculated carefully. Medicated foods are also tricky - unless you calculated the dose properly, it probably wasn't correct. This post explains all that:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

We see this syndrome in clownfish a lot. Once it become severe like this, it is very difficult to treat. Also, with mostly white clownfish, it is very difficult to see any possible symptoms of external disease.

Did the clown show any improvement after the methylene blue dip?
Do you have a treatment tank available?

Jay

 

[Lennie]

Rapid breathing can indicate internal or external issues. When the invertebrates in the tank are fine, it is usually a disease issue, ruling out water quality problems. With only one fish affected, it can be an internal issue, but it can also be that the other fish just hasn't contracted the problem yet.

Methylene blue dip is an old school, temporary treatment for external protozoans. The dose for it must be calculated carefully. Medicated foods are also tricky - unless you calculated the dose properly, it probably wasn't correct. This post explains all that:

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods Jay Hemdal c. 2020 Oral medications are an excellent way to target internal diseases of fishes. Marine fish absorb aquarium water, so in certain cases, they “drink” enough medication from the water to effect a cure. However, freshwater fish actively export...

www.reef2reef.com

We see this syndrome in clownfish a lot. Once it become severe like this, it is very difficult to treat. Also, with mostly white clownfish, it is very difficult to see any possible symptoms of external disease.

Did the clown show any improvement after the methylene blue dip?
Do you have a treatment tank available?

Jay

Hello Jay,

Considering the white empty poop while eating well 3 times a day, I suspected for internal issues too. That's why I started feeding food with mixed metro and kanaplex as well as probiotic rich food. But yes, it is hard to know if it is taken in an ideal amount in food, even if the food is correctly prepared. He ate well last night but no longer eats today.

I can setup a quarantine tank directly. I have a cycled sponge running on an empty container for such purposes all the time, randomly ghostfed to keep bacteria going. I also have a spare heater.

I don't have access to copper based medicine, and there is none available in the stock anywwhere in my country. Except one local product called "Deep Fix Bactofish". It has acriflavine, copper sulfate and copper chloride in it. But even if I go buy it now, I dont have a checker to correctly dose it. Better to say, no checker available to buy.

The methylene blue bath didn't seem to do anything really. Right After the bath:

I have access to kanaplex, metro, a bit of praziquantel before I go to my vet and buy a new one, nitrofurazone, cipro, methylene blue and malachite green+formaldehyde duo together, Sera Baktopur direct and Sera baktotabs.

I have all these available as I have a big fishroom at home but only one saltwater tank. Hope any of the above helps

Also I only have reef salt. Is normal sea salt a must for QT? I remember something like reef salt may effect some medicine from BRStv qt video, but I may be remembering wrong

 

[Lennie]

It basically swims on top like it cant take any oxygen while it does not seem like the case for other fish at all
Should I add an airstone? The tank already had a HOB and circulation pump towards the surface…

Edit: Added an air pump just in case to increase surface agitation more.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It basically swims on top like it cant take any oxygen while it does not seem like the case for other fish at all
Should I add an airstone? The tank already had a HOB and circulation pump towards the surface…

Edit: Added an air pump just in case to increase surface agitation more.

An air pump won't hurt, but the root issue seems to be some gill disease. I think that the clownfish is very close to "crashing", where it cannot breath fast enough to make up for the gill damage.

You might try moving it to the treatment tank and dosing with metronidazole.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I assume this is not a reef ready tank and the last pic I assume no air stone used. It will increase oxygen and break up the surface. I assume this tank is not reef ready- What filter are you using?
The fish is highly distressed and struggling to swim and function normal and time will be of essence

 

[Lennie]

I assume this is not a reef ready tank and the last pic I assume no air stone used. It will increase oxygen and break up the surface. I assume this tank is not reef ready- What filter are you using?
The fish is highly distressed and struggling to swim and function normal and time will be of essence

Hello there,

By "reef ready", do you mean running for a long time? It is a fairly new tank with only 2.5-3ish months in.

I used shrimp as ammonia source and dosed bacteria culture and following to ammonia and nitrite readings reaching zero and only by reading nitrate, I made a %50 water change and ordered my fish. Classic cycling. It took around one month for the tank to cycle.

In order to introduce some coralline algae and goodies, I asked for a piece of live rock from a very long established tank from the LFS and I added it too

I run a HOB for mainly for mechanical filtration. Also the tank has a circulation pump directed to the surface. Only two tiny clownfish. I do weekly water changes around %15 every Sunday.

Yes that time tank had no airstone. I added it right after but still no different in the behavior

 

[Lennie]

An air pump won't hurt, but the root issue seems to be some gill disease. I think that the clownfish is very close to "crashing", where it cannot breath fast enough to make up for the gill damage.

You might try moving it to the treatment tank and dosing with metronidazole.

Should I move the healthy one and treat her as well in the QT?

Or feeding her with metro food is enough in the main tank as she eats. I don't want to put extra stress on her in the qt if it is not a must

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello there,

By "reef ready", do you mean running for a long time? It is a fairly new tank with only 2.5-3ish months in.

I used shrimp as ammonia source and dosed bacteria culture and following to ammonia and nitrite readings reaching zero and only by reading nitrate, I made a %50 water change and ordered my fish. Classic cycling. It took around one month for the tank to cycle.

In order to introduce some coralline algae and goodies, I asked for a piece of live rock from a very long established tank from the LFS and I added it too

I run a HOB for mainly for mechanical filtration. Also the tank has a circulation pump directed to the surface. Only two tiny clownfish. I do weekly water changes around %15 every Sunday.

Yes that time tank had no airstone. I added it right after but still no different in the behavior

Reef ready will have an overflow leading to a sump or chamber allowing surface movement with water
Non-reef ready will be a square tank only utilizing a hang on filter or canister unit in most cases as in your case and what youve described. The problem with mechanical filter only is it is capable of polishing the water but you want to have mechanical , biological and chemical to manage proper water quality. The power filter again will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished with carbon and GFO as examples
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces as examples.
Best it to add or use a hang on refugium such as Reef octopus or AquaMaxx unit and even add a hang on skimmer such as ice cap K1- or K2 100

 

[Lennie]

Reef ready will have an overflow leading to a sump or chamber allowing surface movement with water
Non-reef ready will be a square tank only utilizing a hang on filter or canister unit in most cases as in your case and what youve described. The problem with mechanical filter only is it is capable of polishing the water but you want to have mechanical , biological and chemical to manage proper water quality. The power filter again will polish water and trap particles via the cartridge.
Chemical is what traps and breaks down chemical compounds such as feces and uneaten food often accomplished with carbon and GFO as examples
Biological is what utilizes the natural process of biological filtration such as use of ceramic nuggets, bio blocks, and microscopic bacteria surfaces as examples.
Best it to add or use a hang on refugium such as Reef octopus or AquaMaxx unit and even add a hang on skimmer such as ice cap K1- or K2 100

Oh. Thanks for the explanation

Yea HOB has filter wool and sponge for mainly mechanical and and I run activated carbon as chemical filtration in it. Nothing fancy. I added a.carbon for potential medicated food leeches into water column. So it has been a few days. And rocks, ofcourse, as biological filter itself.

Nothing fancy.

We don't have hangonback p.skimmer here. I can order HOB filter with skimmer from Amazon Germany/Us, if any of these two would do the job:

https://www.amazon.com.tr/gp/product/B07DNTJPL6/
https://www.amazon.com.tr/Coralife-Protein-Sıyırıcı-Deniz-Filtresi/dp/B07G7GGVZS/

 

[vetteguy53081]

Oh. Thanks for the explanation

Yea HOB has filter wool and sponge for mainly mechanical and and I run activated carbon as chemical filtration in it. Nothing fancy. I added a.carbon for potential medicated food leeches into water column. So it has been a few days. And rocks, ofcourse, as biological filter itself.

Nothing fancy.

We don't have hangonback p.skimmer here. I can order HOB filter with skimmer from Amazon Germany/Us, if any of these two would do the job:

https://www.amazon.com.tr/gp/product/B07DNTJPL6/
https://www.amazon.com.tr/Coralife-Protein-Sıyırıcı-Deniz-Filtresi/dp/B07G7GGVZS/

the Amtra SKIMMER would be the better one and give you some biological benefits but water movement

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Should I move the healthy one and treat her as well in the QT?

Or feeding her with metro food is enough in the main tank as she eats. I don't want to put extra stress on her in the qt if it is not a must

I wouldn’t move the healthy one unless it starts showing symptoms.

 

[Lennie]

the Amtra SKIMMER would be the better one and give you some biological benefits but water movement

thank you!

I wouldn’t move the healthy one unless it starts showing symptoms.

Thanks Jay

 

[Lennie]

hello again @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Yesterday I seperated the fish, decreased salinity and temperature in the QT and dosed metronidazole and nitrofurazone to the water column. Didn’t move the cycled sponge in, as nitrofurazone and metronidazole would harm the cycle anyway. Just using an airstone. Dosed prime for ammonia.

This morning he was doing much better. Still heavy breathing buy not as much as in the video. Swims normally, not gasping for air.

Should I just keep up with daily %50 water changes and add the medicine back for the renewed ratio, or just make %100 wcs? Or do you have any other method? Nitrofurazone+metro seem to be working well rn. How many dahs should I dose them?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I would

hello again @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Yesterday I seperated the fish, decreased salinity and temperature in the QT and dosed metronidazole and nitrofurazone to the water column. Didn’t move the cycled sponge in, as nitrofurazone and metronidazole would harm the cycle anyway. Just using an airstone. Dosed prime for ammonia.

This morning he was doing much better. Still heavy breathing buy not as much as in the video. Swims normally, not gasping for air.

Should I just keep up with daily %50 water changes and add the medicine back for the renewed ratio, or just make %100 wcs? Or do you have any other method? Nitrofurazone+metro seem to be working well rn. How many dahs should I dose them?

not mix the two and stay with nitro

 

[vetteguy53081]

hello again @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Yesterday I seperated the fish, decreased salinity and temperature in the QT and dosed metronidazole and nitrofurazone to the water column. Didn’t move the cycled sponge in, as nitrofurazone and metronidazole would harm the cycle anyway. Just using an airstone. Dosed prime for ammonia.

This morning he was doing much better. Still heavy breathing buy not as much as in the video. Swims normally, not gasping for air.

Should I just keep up with daily %50 water changes and add the medicine back for the renewed ratio, or just make %100 wcs? Or do you have any other method? Nitrofurazone+metro seem to be working well rn. How many dahs should I dose them?

Also a water change won’t hurt

 

[Jay Hemdal]

hello again @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Yesterday I seperated the fish, decreased salinity and temperature in the QT and dosed metronidazole and nitrofurazone to the water column. Didn’t move the cycled sponge in, as nitrofurazone and metronidazole would harm the cycle anyway. Just using an airstone. Dosed prime for ammonia.

This morning he was doing much better. Still heavy breathing buy not as much as in the video. Swims normally, not gasping for air.

Should I just keep up with daily %50 water changes and add the medicine back for the renewed ratio, or just make %100 wcs? Or do you have any other method? Nitrofurazone+metro seem to be working well rn. How many dahs should I dose them?

You need to manage the ammonia to be less than about 0.25 ppm through whatever percentage that takes. I've seen tanks that needed 100% water changes daily, others need less.

Typically, antibiotics are dosed for 5 days.

 

[Lennie]

You need to manage the ammonia to be less than about 0.25 ppm through whatever percentage that takes. I've seen tanks that needed 100% water changes daily, others need less.

Typically, antibiotics are dosed for 5 days.

Nitrofurazone changes the water color slightly. So it would be hard to read such low value properly I believe

I will keep up with %100 daily water changes to be safe as well as dosing prime in between. I prepared a big batch of water yesterday.

Let’s see how it will go. Hope he gets well

 

[Lennie]

Hello again @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

I wanted to update the current situation. At least for those who may read this post in the future.

the complete treatment so far looks like this:
- Suspecting potential problems with empty poop;
Every morning- kanaplex food, midday probiotic food, evening metro food for 4-5 days

- He suddenly gets bad next morning. I go for a methylene blue dip, 30mins
-Same day, I moved him to QT. Dose nitro and metro - for 2 days. Dosed prime for ammonia and %100 water changes every day.
-Last night- Dosed nitro+praziquantel.

Today, I moved the cycled sponge in and added an extra airstone to the quarantine after another %100 water change. He ate one adult brine shrimp. That's a success. He also made a move towards pellet foods. I was soo happy seeing it. After all these treatments, I wanted to give him a day off at least. He looks much better right now compared to day 1.

I talked to a fish breeder friend, and he said he has an open cupramine bottle. It is mission impossible to find it lately. He said he can share with me.

He will bring some to me tomorrow in a syringe. Am I safe to follow Seachem's "use 20 drops (1 mL) per 40 L (10.5 US gallons) the first day, wait 48 hours, then repeat." instruction without a test kit? Please note that I use reef salt. Specifically, Tropical Reef Base salt. Would this potentially cause issues with copper?

Now, What should my schedule look like if I will use copper? Can I use it with any antibiotics like metro or nitrofurazone at the same time?

Or, should I not use copper at all, and keep using metro and nitrofurazone? There is def something wrong with the gills. Heavy breathing, open mouth and inflamed gills, even tho the breathing speed and inflamation is lowered gradually. There have never been ammonia present. What is supposed to caused this inflamed, slightly open gills with heavy breathing?

Also, I wonder, if I keep the sick fish alone too long, will he become a female too in the quarantine? Or dealing with its life prevents such sort of natural action? This might be problematic when I put him back