ICH transmission ,URGENT

[Sylvester]

Bought a royal gramma this past weekend. Was told by my LFS that gramma do not need quarantine. Introduced the fish to the tank and it was completely free and clear of any visible health issues. A little skittish but otherwise hungry and coming out to eat. 24 hours ago I noticed 2 spots on its tail fin, today I noticed 3-5 other small white spots with one being closer to the gills and 2-3 being on the dorsal. I went and bought a quarantine tank to handle this problem. Does anyone have any links to good literature/ posts on how to handle this the right way? Everything I seem to read tells a different story. I hate to be the guy asking questions that have already been answered but I’m feeling confused by the sheer amount of people saying different things.
Also will I have to remove all fish? Since the new one has just started showing does that mean that the ick hasn’t settled into the substrate? Thanks in advance

Unfortunately you have ICH in your system. If the fish is eating and active you’ll be in ich management mode. UV helps and moving forward quarantine all fish.

I have a powder blue that was quarantined and still hot ich. He’s been around for 5 years with 10 other fish.

 

[Fish Fan]

I have the 15 Fluval flex. It has 3 chambers and I’ve seen some other nano reactors. New to this side of the hobby

No worries, you have to start somewhere ;-)

Does your Flex 15 have a like a big foam block in the back where you can stuff smaller packages of media like bags of carbon? If so, this I believe would replace that. There are definitely small reactors you could add to your system as well, but this is also a viable option:

 

[Macbalacano]

Sorry, genuine question - based on everything I’ve read in this thread, why would it be a better option to put copper in the display vs. Setting up a separate tank for quarantine with copper?

The display tank route sounds more complicated, and may cost the same or more, and seems to carry at least some risk of hurting future inhabitants with some potential copper still in the system.

Just trying to understand the benefits of this approach.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Sorry, genuine question - based on everything I’ve read in this thread, why would it be a better option to put copper in the display vs. Setting up a separate tank for quarantine with copper?

The display tank route sounds more complicated, and may cost the same or more, and seems to carry at least some risk of hurting future inhabitants with some potential copper still in the system.

Just trying to understand the benefits of this approach.

Well for one , coral is not something I’m pressed on having anytime soon. There are several reasons, some being the added expense of lighting , added chores to maintain , etc. if my work would be somewhat equal , then why not have the fish in the main tank , and the inverts in the other. I really enjoy having my fish on my desk. Also I haven’t made a concrete decision yet. That will happen in the next day or so as I continue to weight each approach

 

[jmcdona6]

Well for one , coral is not something I’m pressed on having anytime soon. There are several reasons, some being the added expense of lighting , added chores to maintain , etc. if my work would be somewhat equal , then why not have the fish in the main tank , and the inverts in the other. I really enjoy having my fish on my desk. Also I haven’t made a concrete decision yet. That will happen in the next day or so as I continue to weight each approach

I think his point is valid. Most people would recommend removing the fish to another temporary tank and treating there.

It's easier to control copper levels and you don't have to worry about getting the copper out when you are done. I don't know anyone personally who has successfully extracted copper in its entirety from a tank without replacing sand/live rock. Not saying it's not possible...but not how I'd do it and not how anyone I know who has been successful has done it.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

I think his point is valid. Most people would recommend removing the fish to another temporary tank and treating there.

It's easier to control copper levels and you don't have to worry about getting the copper out when you are done. I don't know anyone personally who has successfully extracted copper in its entirety from a tank without replacing sand/live rock. Not saying it's not possible...but not how I'd do it and not how anyone I know who has been successful has done it.

True. And again, Im a noob so im still weighing my options here. Im partially biased because I spent a ton on fish and would like them visible in my space instead of tucked away in the QT. Ultimately I do want whats best. I was even thinking of removing some or most of my live rock.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

I think his point is valid. Most people would recommend removing the fish to another temporary tank and treating there.

It's easier to control copper levels and you don't have to worry about getting the copper out when you are done. I don't know anyone personally who has successfully extracted copper in its entirety from a tank without replacing sand/live rock. Not saying it's not possible...but not how I'd do it and not how anyone I know who has been successful has done it.

 

[jmcdona6]

Taking them out also introduces another unpleasant point that you would need to keep your display fallow for several months to kill off the Ich. So the tank would take longer than the fish to cure.

It's not a black and white decision though. With you not having coral, it's possible to try to do it the other way. Just do your research. Cuprisorb is VERY effective at removing copper out of the water. But copper is absorbed into sand and rock and slowly leeches back out. For how long? I don't know. I actually tried to look up something academic to share but couldn't find anything.

As someone new, first lesson of this hobby is that there is no easy solution to Marine ich. Solutions exist but they are all unpleasant in their own way.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

What about moving all of the inverts out and running hyposalinity in your main tank? That way, you can avoid copper contamination in your display tank. Hyposalinity will also help against flukes.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

so inverts cant handle hyposalinity? would the best method be hyposalinity in the main tank, with inverts homed in the qt tank?

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Taking them out also introduces another unpleasant point that you would need to keep your display fallow for several months to kill off the Ich. So the tank would take longer than the fish to cure.

It's not a black and white decision though. With you not having coral, it's possible to try to do it the other way. Just do your research. Cuprisorb is VERY effective at removing copper out of the water. But copper is absorbed into sand and rock and slowly leeches back out. For how long? I don't know. I actually tried to look up something academic to share but couldn't find anything.

As someone new, first lesson of this hobby is that there is no easy solution to Marine ich. Solutions exist but they are all unpleasant in their own way.

Well there are 2-3 pieces of live rock that I enjoy , But the rest dont fit my scape and are sort of expendable anyways. My big wuastion is how long will the ick live on live rock? If i jet the rocks dry out would the ick die?

 

[jmcdona6]

Well there are 2-3 pieces of live rock that I enjoy , But the rest dont fit my scape and are sort of expendable anyways. My big wuastion is how long will the ick live on live rock? If i jet the rocks dry out would the ick die?

Allowed to fully dry, yes. It's one of the surest ways to kill ich. If you aren't attached to anything inside and you have a smaller setup like you do...I'd be tempted to yank anything porous out, let it dry out for a while. Dry/sanitize the tank. Put the fish back in, treat with copper in your now empty display. After the QT period is over remove copper/run some cuprisorb. Then you can add your rock back. Winning.

If you do go the hypo route below is a good resource. It does work, but it has some technicalities you should consider. Important you understand what you are doing.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity aka Osmotic Shock Therapy (updated 1-11-23) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Flukes (Monogeneans) How To Treat: Place the fish you wish to treat in a quarantine tank with SG & temperature matching the tank they came from. Over a period of 48 hours, gradually...

humble.fish

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Allowed to fully dry, yes. It's one of the surest ways to kill ich. If you aren't attached to anything inside and you have a smaller setup like you do...I'd be tempted to yank anything porous out, let it dry out for a while. Dry/sanitize the tank. Put the fish back in, treat with copper in your now empty display. After the QT period is over remove copper/run some cuprisorb. Then you can add your rock back. Winning.

If you do go the hypo route below is a good resource. It does work, but it has some technicalities you should consider. Important you understand what you are doing.

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity aka Osmotic Shock Therapy (updated 1-11-23) What It Treats: Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Flukes (Monogeneans) How To Treat: Place the fish you wish to treat in a quarantine tank with SG & temperature matching the tank they came from. Over a period of 48 hours, gradually...

humble.fish

Im thinking I may put the fish into qt tank and treat, remove rocks/ sand and let completely dry, although I may just get new sand. If I took this approach Im thinking it may help cut down on that long fallow period. Since this is a newer tank I dont have all of the other things to juggle. Another thing is this: will I have to completely replace / sterilize all of my bio media / sponges in the back of the tank does that harbor ick? Will I need to drain the whole thing and sterilize? again , this tank is only 15 gallons. Id rather put in the work and hit the restart button than waiting close to 3 months.

 

[Boreas_SA]

Can always also try chloroquine phosphate in the display after you have removed the inverts. Does not really get absorbed into the rocks and sand, but a bit more difficult to know exact concentration as it does degrade quickly with rock in the tank.

 

[bossman818]

I’m a firm believer that if you feed the fish with a little garlic, they beat many diseases. The only time I quarantine is when they stop eating. That’s when I know it’s trouble. I’m not expert, this is just what I do and it has worked.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

so inverts cant handle hyposalinity? would the best method be hyposalinity in the main tank, with inverts homed in the qt tank?

Yes - the option would be to hold the inverts in the QT for 60 days and run hypo in your display for 30 days.

I would NOT use copper in your display. It will bind with any calcium material (sand and rock) and then can be released months later if their is a pH drop, harming any invertebrates that you may have returned to the tank.

 

[jmcdona6]

Im thinking I may put the fish into qt tank and treat, remove rocks/ sand and let completely dry, although I may just get new sand. If I took this approach Im thinking it may help cut down on that long fallow period. Since this is a newer tank I dont have all of the other things to juggle. Another thing is this: will I have to completely replace / sterilize all of my bio media / sponges in the back of the tank does that harbor ick? Will I need to drain the whole thing and sterilize? again , this tank is only 15 gallons. Id rather put in the work and hit the restart button than waiting close to 3 months.

A lot of ways to do this but really its this. Fish can be treated in 2-4 weeks with copper in any vessel of your choice. All other surfaces that have touched water (media, sand, inverts, rock, glass, power heads, etc) need to be sanitized. Sanitization here can be extended hypo, drying out, or being left in a fallow environment. Honestly drying out is the easiest on your size tank for everything but the inverts. Very difficult to do (drying shells without killing the invert). Hypo is hit or miss depending on the invert. And going fallow 2-3 months for a snail seems wasteful. Depending on what you have i guess...I might make a business decision...

Someone mentioned garlic, not bad advice if you go the ich management route. Been known to increase fish appetite which increases their chances of survival and "remission."

There are many diseases I think you are just resigned to getting in your tank over time. Ich and velvet are ones I think are 99% preventable if you take proper steps. Might be a pain and cost you a little more, but avoidable. I would personally only consider management in an established display that you have 0% chance of removing all fish without destroying it in the process.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

A lot of ways to do this but really its this. Fish can be treated in 2-4 weeks with copper in any vessel of your choice. All other surfaces that have touched water (media, sand, inverts, rock, glass, power heads, etc) need to be sanitized. Sanitization here can be extended hypo, drying out, or being left in a fallow environment. Honestly drying out is the easiest on your size tank for everything but the inverts. Very difficult to do (drying shells without killing the invert). Hypo is hit or miss depending on the invert. And going fallow 2-3 months for a snail seems wasteful. Depending on what you have i guess...I might make a business decision...

Someone mentioned garlic, not bad advice if you go the ich management route. Been known to increase fish appetite which increases their chances of survival and "remission."

There are many diseases I think you are just resigned to getting in your tank over time. Ich and velvet are ones I think are 99% preventable if you take proper steps. Might be a pain and cost you a little more, but avoidable. I would personally only consider management in an established display that you have 0% chance of removing all fish without destroying it in the process.

Yea true. I’ll probably get a small container to house my inverts in while I dry the tank out. Shouldn’t take long.

 

[dwest]

I don’t want to discount anyone’s opinion. And there are several ways to attack this problem. But, if Jay Hemdal gives me a recommendation for treating disease, I’m gonna do it.

 

[youclowntoomuch]

Yes - the option would be to hold the inverts in the QT for 60 days and run hypo in your display for 30 days.

I would NOT use copper in your display. It will bind with any calcium material (sand and rock) and then can be released months later if their is a pH drop, harming any invertebrates that you may have returned to the tank.

I’m going to read up on your hyposalinity article and go from there. Will hypo kill the ick completely?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’m going to read up on your hyposalinity article and go from there. Will hypo kill the ick completely?

Well, no treatment is ever really 100%, but if done correctly it usually works fine. Coppersafe is a bit more effective, but has its own drawbacks.
Most cases of ich coming back can be traced to new fish being added which were not properly quarantined.