Thoughts on no water changes?

[vlangel]

I have an SPS / mixed pico tank that consumes almost 4 dKH alkalinity a day. Using ESV B_Ionic 2-part to balance cal and alk.

For years the tank ran like this:
Day 0 - 40% water change. Tank looks great, maximum alkalinity consumption.
Day 7 – Alkalinity consumption starts to drop. Reduce alk/cal to maintain 8.0 dKH/430 ppm balance.
Day 14 – Stylophora and Acropora start to bleach.
Day 21 – Lower parts of Stylophora flesh start to detach.

Now, using ICP-MS, daily dosing of select trace elements, and ¼ recommended amount of ROX 0.8 changed monthly, the tank can go indefinitely without a water change! It may be Zero WC, but I still do a 40% monthly change to rebalance, and because the nitrate slowly increases over time.

The ICP-MS test is the only test capable of correctly measuring the level of many trace elements.

I believe it’s misleading to have an standard ICP(OES) test register “0” with many trace elements, and light up the “Green” panel as to say “all is good” when it is very possible it’s not good. I learned this the hard way as it took me years to figure out why my tank would start to fail after 7 days while ICP was all green as to say there was not a problem.

The green light is good only if you are dosing an appropriate amount of that element. Then the test only confirms you are not overdosing!

While it’s possible for anyone to duplicate these results, it is unfortunately a little complicated, and also a little costly. But I believe in general a significant percentage of tanks running today have some degree of trace element deficiency or imbalance (in some cases so bad that 10-15% WC alone cannot fix things). I believe an ICP-MS test, and the necessary corrections can greatly improve many of them. It will also relax the requirement for water changes a bit.

On the other side of the coin, if you have the right combination of tank size, animals, substrate, bacteria, feeding, etc… You may be the lucky one, and have success without any water changes. Congratulations, my hats off you

I am a firm believer in water changes, especially for beginners. My fear for the OP is that over time trace elements get depleted, and the tank goes south. ICP comes back all green, and there is no explanation as to why this is happening. Unfortunately, I believe this happens in the hobby more than people think.

I am totally in agreement with you about being a believer in water changes, especially for new hobbyists.
I was an aquarium tech for a lfs's accounts. I serviced folks' tanks for about 6 years and watched nearly all of them thrive because of consistent water changes.
Also my own tanks thrived for decades and again I attributed it to consistent water changes. A water change both imports elements that have been depleted and exports nutrients that are in excess of what the tank can utilize.
It is not easy to replicate in a perfectly balanced way both importing elements and exporting nutrients without water changes, although it can be done. Recently I have cut down to about 2-3 water changes a year by using All For Reef once a week in my tank to replenish elements and having lots of macroalgae, coral, rock and sand to utilize and export nutrients. This tank is a very mature (almost 8 years old) with a fuge that is half the display tank's volume and I have kept reef tanks for nearly 25 years. I watch the coral closely and my first action if something looks off is a water change.

 

[saltyfins]

Moonshine is great and all for experienced reefers with a lot of coral, but its not the end all be all of reefing. Honestly, its probably cheaper and easier to just do water changes vs buying all these trace elements and topping off and chasing depletion charts, especially for beginners.

it's actually not. it's more expensive to buy salt. the bottles last a LONG time, I have most still from the original order, that was 2 yrs ago, because I don't need that much. some, I buy a lot of. like flourine. my tank drinks that like...well, water lol

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am close to maybe 8 years or something without... but not (at all) going to argue against.

 

[Solo McReefer]

Put some tank water in a 5 gallon white bucket

Is it clear?

Or is it discolored and dirty?

If you wouldn't pour that clear (is it dirty and discolored) water right back in your tank without hesitation, you probably should be doing water changes

 

[t5Nitro]

For what it’s worth, I’ll add that I use AFR as my primary replacement for the big 3 but clearly there are trace elements in it. I supplement my tank with both two part and kalkwasser due to a high demand mixed reef. I’ve only done one ICP test, and the values were normal with exception of magnesium. Ended up going too high on the Mg and have since cut that back.

A lot of talk from pro WC people that almost come off defensive on why they need to be done. Clearly, the day to day evidence is in the pudding in the thread for those of us on 1+ years and others nearly a decade without changing the water.

Addendum: I totally don’t argue against doing them. It is certainly an easy means of correction, but when the tank has really stabilized itself, the benefits may not be as impactful.

This is coming from someone who used to do daily 1-2% water changes and thought that was the greatest thing in the world. Now, never mixing saltwater has taken the front seat.

 

[VintageReefer]

For what it’s worth, I’ll add that I use AFR as my primary replacement for the big 3 but clearly there are trace elements in it. I supplement my tank with both two part and kalkwasser due to a high demand mixed reef. I’ve only done one ICP test, and the values were normal with exception of magnesium. Ended up going too high on the Mg and have since cut that back.

A lot of talk from pro WC people that almost come off defensive on why they need to be done. Clearly, the day to day evidence is in the pudding in the thread for those of us on 1+ years and others nearly a decade without changing the water.

Addendum: I totally don’t argue against doing them. It is certainly an easy means of correction, but when the tank has really stabilized itself, the benefits may not be as impactful.

This is coming from someone who used to do daily 1-2% water changes and thought that was the greatest thing in the world. Now, never mixing saltwater has taken the front seat.

Get off your no wc high horse!

I joke because you’re right

No wc tank owner. Tank was filled 10-11 years ago. 75g + sump. I’ve changed directions a few times but my last redesign was started around 2 years ago.

Regardless of the coral in the tank, the water, rock and sand have remained in place for the last decade.

I’ve done roughly 3 water changes, 5g each, for maintenance related tasks, over a 10 yr period

Current pics:

Hello - Welcome to my (near) Zero Maintenance Reef!

Those fish selections are excellent! I understand now why you choose to remove the skimmer now thanks. Has for the mulm, I can agree to it. When scuba diving in panama the floor was covered with what looked exactly the stuff in my sump. So to a degree it shouldn't be to bad. I also can't...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[00W]

I've seen many great tanks on R2R with no water changes.
I've seen many great tanks on R2R where water changes are done.
Either way you decide to go, you must test and supplement accordingly.
Just have to.
It'll be something.
Whether it be alk,calcium, trace elements-whatever.
Back in the day, water changes were all we had.
Now, you've got a plethora of stuff right on the shelf.
@VintageReefer has a gorgeous tank.
It's stunning. No water changes.
Mine will never, ever look like that.
I have a trigger, feed 3 times a day and change a lot of water.
A lot.
I also skim heavy and have to add stuff occasionally too.
Every tank is different.
The debate will rage on.
As mentioned earlier change some water and see what happens.
Now, I've never changed the water in my sump....

 

[VintageReefer]

I've seen many great tanks on R2R with no water changes.
I've seen many great tanks on R2R where water changes are done.
Either way you decide to go, you must test and supplement accordingly.
Just have to.
It'll be something.
Whether it be alk,calcium, trace elements-whatever.
Back in the day, water changes were all we had.
Now, you've got a plethora of stuff right on the shelf.
@VintageReefer has a gorgeous tank.
It's stunning. No water changes.
Mine will never, ever look like that.
I have a trigger, feed 3 times a day and change a lot of water.
A lot.
I also skim heavy and have to add stuff occasionally too.
Every tank is different.
The debate will rage on.
As mentioned earlier change some water and see what happens.
Now, I've never changed the water in my sump....

My sump has never been cleaned. I have a layer of mulm in the first and third chamber. I believe mulm is an important part of the ecosystem. I don’t run a skimmer. My first chamber is live rock and a skimmer that’s unplugged. The skimmer is on case I ever need it - remove a medication or pollutant etc

Second chamber is 2-“ sand, live rock with sponge, and surf2 floating algae scrubber

Between chamber 2 and 3 are media shelves. 2 bags chemi pure elite, rated 50g each, and a media sock with matrix. Just for purposes of seeding a qt tank or future tank.

Chamber 3 is the return pump and more live rock.

I have no inverts to my knowledge in the sump except a chocolate chip starfish, and 3 things I “rehomed” but never saw again - gorilla crab and 2 sexy shrimp. My sump is a cryptic zone with no lighting.

Mine will never, ever look like that

It could. This was mine Dec 2022

And I fixed these algae issues and rebuilt without changing water, chemicals, and I didn’t break out the old toothbrush everyone’s quick to suggest. I only had 4-5 snails. The rock was phosphate bound from 2 years of neglect…it had to be sucked out and exported or the algae would just come back.

 

[merkmerk73]

No water changes is just allowing things to accumulate over time

There's no other way to dice it

You might be successful at it in certain ways, for a time, but you'll never be as well off as someone who's changing out water

Do you want to sniff your own farts all day for the rest of your life with a lil air purifier in the room with you?

 

[VintageReefer]

No water changes is just allowing things to accumulate over time

There's no other way to dice it

You might be successful at it in certain ways, for a time, but you'll never be as well off as someone who's changing out water

Do you want to sniff your own farts all day for the rest of your life with a lil air purifier in the room with you?

To each his own lol I’m not here to judge

 

[apb03]

If you can sustainably do 10% water changes weekly and set up a two-part of your choice, you will have a successful reef.

 

[Ufuk's reef]

I think even a 5% water change with a bottom draw once a week is successful in removing waste. In addition, it partially completes the minerals and elements in the water.

 

[Spare time]

Change your water! Doc’s collect and no way to get rid of them besides a water change.. here comes the moonshiners lol lol…. Even triton wants you to change water no matter all the claims you don’t have too! Salem Clemens has been touching this subject a lot lately who has scientifical data to back his claims.. nothing bad has ever happened from changing water and that’s all we had back in the day before all the mechanical filtration and supplements of today.

Activated arbon and skimming removes DOC

 

[Troylee]

Activated arbon and skimming removes DOC

To an Extent yes but will never replace a water change..

 

[Koty]

My opinion is based on my basic microbiology knowledge: Organic compounds will not accumulate that quickly. Once an organic compound accumulates, there will always be a type of bacteria that will know how to break it and use it as a building block or an energy source.
Also, indeed, no water changes spell 1. Doing all the possible checks (ICP not included). 2. Use of all export methods at full throttle. 3. Continuous supplementation of trace elements using options that will not accumulate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Once an organic compound accumulates, there will always be a type of bacteria that will know how to break it and use it as a building block or an energy source.

I agree that most compounds will be acted upon by organisms, but I think that sentence is stronger than is justified.

Organics do accumulate that are less and less readily modified until very resistant organics remain.

One can reasonably argue they are not a problem, but they are well known to result in the ocean.

 

[Troylee]

I agree that most compounds will be acted upon by organisms, but I think that sentence is stronger than is justified.

Organics do accumulate that are less and less readily modified until very resistant organics remain.

One can reasonably argue they are not a problem, but they are well known to result in the ocean.

So with your background what are your thoughts on a skimmer and carbon being enough to remove them or do we need water changes? I’m all for water changes but I have no science to back my thoughts just experience lol..

 

[Koty]

I agree that most compounds will be acted upon by organisms, but I think that sentence is stronger than is justified.

Organics do accumulate that are less and less readily modified until very resistant organics remain.

One can reasonably argue they are not a problem, but they are well known to result in the ocean.

Well, we have argued about it before. The infinite volume of the sea prevents the accumulation that may quickly occur in our tanks. I would speculate that this accumulating organic compound or family of compounds will create an advantage that will select the bacteria that will eventually break them down. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I am trying to be careful and take all possible measurements (except ICP).
For example, take some gravel soaked with motor oil near a garage, and you will isolate many bacteria that degrade it...
Also, FWIW, my Balling three part is adding fresh seawater daily ( 0.07% of total DT volume)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So with your background what are your thoughts on a skimmer and carbon being enough to remove them or do we need water changes? I’m all for water changes but I have no science to back my thoughts just experience lol..

I don't know in terms of tank health, but in terms of organics, skimmers and GAC, even with water changes, does not prevent accumulating organics. Good evidence of that is how many people add ozone and can suddenly see an improvement in the water clarity. Even spouses, such as mine, notice even without being prompted to look.

 

[X-37B]

After many years of weekly I now do around 10% every 2 months for WC's.
This is to remove whatever may be harmfull that we cant test for.
I have went 18 months with no wc on my old 120. When I did one after 18 months the tank just looked better, imo.
The wife even asked me what I did different to make the tank look so alive so its not just me, lol.

I run an over sized skimmer, small carbon/po4 reactor, and an ozone reactor on my ext 170.
I only run the reactor when po4 gets >.15. Carbon is used when I run the reactor. I do run carbon 24/7 in the ozone reactor.

The big difference with this system is the Avast Marine Ozone reactor. I have ran it since day one. I run orp at 400-430.
Cleaning the probe once a month is needed to keep the orp in range.
It does make the water, ice clear, even though I have some particulate from the bare bottoms high flow.
I Also dose trace daily.
I have done 2 wc on this system in 4 months of operation. An 8g and a recent 12g. So every 2 months now about 8-10% is my now new wc schedule goal.
The same wc schedule is used on my other 2 systems but no ozone.
Tank will be 5 months on 9/16.