The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MnFish1]

Im not specifically talking about CI, but unfortunately it’s all most people on this thread talk about, I think about the total health of our tanks, all diseases, parsites, bacteria, pathogens everything and that’s why I’m so interested in what Paul and atoll and a Few others are doing, getting away from sterile SPS boxes and looking at things from a different perspective

My hypothesis is that he has nitrates above 100 is the reason for his success long-term. Again the topic of the thread is basically CI/no quarantine

 

[Mortie31]

Except - Mortie - no offense - the title of he thread is 'the other way to run a reef tank (no quarantine)' - its supposed to be about quarantine and CI. Or am I wrong? I didnt start the thread or make the title - @PaulB did. Several times I have said why/how Paul is successful - but - I just don't think this thread correctly explains the parasitology of CI - OR how to/whether to/why to/why not to. quarantine. He has a great tank. He adds fish with ci to his tank and they live. All good. He relates his success to feeding bacteria - ie whole fish/clams/guts and adding 'stuff' from the mean to the aquarium... I don't buy that argument - because there is no rationale for it. There is no evidence that he's feeding 'pathogens' to his fish to keep them immune, etc etc wont repeat it here. As Paul knows - this is not directed as an insult to him - or a way to diminish his reef keeping skills.

The argument that Paul has had a tank/tanks for 40+ years by itself is not an argument - unless you can somehow (you cant) show that the other people that 'quit' quit because they didn't use Pauls methods.

The question is yes it’s about a no quarantine alternative, but did Paul mention CI? Sorry If he did but I took it to mean all illness etc and an alternative way to run a tank to avoid them without quarantine.

 

[MnFish1]

I go out collecting quite a bit in the summer, and have been known to dump a bucket or two of various wildlife directly into my display tank or fuge, and so far after many decades of aquarium care never had a problem from such dumping's. Most of the times my fish and coral seem to enjoy it, and as for fish, all my wild caught fish go directly into my display tank, straight from the ocean , no quarantining, no nothing, same with the live sand and other bottom substrate I collect for my display and fuge, and also all the saltwater I use for my system is collected by boat directly from the Gulfstream off the Florida Keys, and in all these decades I have never lost a tank of fish to Ich, or any other disease. It's not that I have never lost a fish, some of the fish I buy wont eat any type of food and die, and some have jumped out of my tank and died before I could rescue them, so I must be really lucky or doing something right. Maybe adding live rock from the Gulf of Mexico, live sand from the outer reefs, NSW from the Gulfstream all have something to do with this. My biggest thing going for me I also believe is I waited months , almost a year before I added fish to my tank, except for the ones that came with the live rock I purchased, and then slowly added a few fish every so often after that. Aquarist like Paul and others, who have been doing this for a while, have acquired the ability to select the wild life that will survive in our systems, and are feed a very high quality diet, with a well maintained environment, as stress free as possible.

I believe you - probably because the concentration of CI or other pathogens floating around in the water depending on the season) is quite low.... I cant remember the exact number but I think its something like 20% of infective particles of CI ever reach a host). Most fish acquire CI at night when siting in they hiding place not moving - when the infectious particles are released. This is the most efficient way for the parasite to get to the host - the host isnt moving - and the infectious particles are released from the sand/rock in the dark.

you also basically left your tank fqllow for a year.

Congratulations on your success - honestly - however there are lots of people with the same success that have no access to the things that you do. So - there must be other factors. This is meant kind of tongue in cheek in a joking manner. Anyone patient enough to wait a year before adding fish to a tank is likely one to. be successful in this hobby no matter what they do (that was a compliment)

 

[MnFish1]

The question is yes it’s about a no quarantine alternative, but did Paul mention CI? Sorry If he did but I took it to mean all illness etc and an alternative way to run a tank to avoid them without quarantine.

Well - he mentioned parasites. I mean we don't use quarantine for vibrio vulnificans or pseudomonas.... The thing we QT for are flukes, CI, Velvet, Brook, etc and other similar parasites. He also mentioned adding fish 'covered with CI' in one of his posts. The question becomes - when a fish enters Pauls system it has none of the 'benefits' of his method. It has not been fed clams, etc etc etc. How would Paul's method/tank be less likely to infect a new fish (he says the parasites are in his tank) that doesnt have the benefits of his method? (unless its luck - ie the fish is already immune, or the fish was going to survive its bout with CI/Velevet with or without his method)

 

[Mortie31]

The question is yes it’s about a no quarantine alternative, but did Paul mention CI? Sorry If he did but I took it to mean all illness etc and an alternative way to run a tank to avoid them without quarantine.

Just reread @Paul B OP and I can’t see where he mentions CI and ICK just an alternative method to no quarantine

 

[Mortie31]

Well - he mentioned parasites. I mean we don't use quarantine for vibrio vulnificans or pseudomonas.... The thing we QT for are flukes, CI, Velvet, Brook, etc and other similar parasites. He also mentioned adding fish 'covered with CI' in one of his posts. The question becomes - when a fish enters Pauls system it has none of the 'benefits' of his method. It has not been fed clams, etc etc etc. How would Paul's method/tank be less likely to infect a new fish (he says the parasites are in his tank) that doesnt have the benefits of his method? (unless its luck - ie the fish is already immune, or the fish was going to survive its bout with CI/Velevet with or without his method)

Good point.. could there be something in the mud or food he feeds that helps a fish fight parasites? A fish doesn’t die from CI as soon as it’s exposed, it can take weeks, maybe the environment and food help it fight it? I don’t know but something is happening differently in these more natural tanks than the sterile ones.. @Paul B

 

[MnFish1]

Good point.. could there be something in the mud or food he feeds that helps a fish fight parasites?

Yes of course. But - there is no evidence to suggest that this is true. I'm not joking - it could be his nitrates inhibit parasites also. It could be many things. It could be that his tank gets 1 hour of direct sunlight each day - I have no clue. Like I said - there is no doubt he has a nice tank that has adapted to the conditions he keeps. The question is whether mimicking the food and mud is he 'key' issue - which seems to be the agenda. Perhaps Im misreading the article.

Think sterile environment kills the good with the bad, which is worse. That’s what I mostly took away from Paul’s read

This is well proven - your grandmother was smart (not the 2 pounds part) - but preventing kids from playing./being exposed to bacteria etc is not positive. That said - our tanks are not at all sterile. Even the flake food you feed (if you do) is not 'sterile'

 

[MnFish1]

Just reread @Paul B OP and I can’t see where he mentions CI and ICK just an alternative method to no quarantine

Sorry I thought I answered that. We quarantine for parasites - CI, velvet etc. By default no QT means you're not worried about those things unless I misunderstood what you mean

 

[Jay Norris]

I believe you - probably because the concentration of CI or other pathogens floating around in the water depending on the season) is quite low.... I cant remember the exact number but I think its something like 20% of infective particles of CI ever reach a host). Most fish acquire CI at night when siting in they hiding place not moving - when the infectious particles are released. This is the most efficient way for the parasite to get to the host - the host isnt moving - and the infectious particles are released from the sand/rock in the dark.

you also basically left your tank fqllow for a year.

Congratulations on your success - honestly - however there are lots of people with the same success that have no access to the things that you do. So - there must be other factors. This is meant kind of tongue in cheek in a joking manner. Anyone patient enough to wait a year before adding fish to a tank is likely one to. be successful in this hobby no matter what they do (that was a compliment)

Thanks, and one of the main reasons I waited a year was due to the water being to cold to comfortably dive to collect the fish, and I added a new motor to my boat, and had a little cosmetic done to it. But still I truly believe the longer you can wait to dd fish and corals to your system the better off the whole system will be.

 

[theMeat]

Yes of course. But - there is no evidence to suggest that this is true. I'm not joking - it could be his nitrates inhibit parasites also. It could be many things. It could be that his tank gets 1 hour of direct sunlight each day - I have no clue. Like I said - there is no doubt he has a nice tank that has adapted to the conditions he keeps. The question is whether mimicking the food and mud is he 'key' issue - which seems to be the agenda. Perhaps Im misreading the article.

This is well proven - your grandmother was smart (not the 2 pounds part) - but preventing kids from playing./being exposed to bacteria etc is not positive. That said - our tanks are not at all sterile. Even the flake food you feed (if you do) is not 'sterile'

Yeah, the 2 lbs of dirt is not meant literally.
Twisting terms around like “sterile” is getting confusing. Think everyone gets what the 2 lbs of dirt means, and what PaulB is sharing. Things like claiming hi nitrates is the reason for his success is weird, since most would say higher nitrates will and does have the opposite effect on fish’s well being. Which only proves further he’s onto something

 

[Mortie31]

Just a thought is immunibilty to disease transferable between fish?

 

[Ardeus]

Sick fish are a rare sight in the wild.

As a tank gets older, if you don't mess too much with it, it will find its own balance. There is something in this balance that keeps moving the tank closer and closer to the environment you find in the wild.

I am guessing that time can do that to most tanks and that's the reason that I think there is no quick recipe to Paul's method (or lack of method).

Whatever it is that is keeping the fish healthy in Paul's tank, it's probably the same things that keep fish healthy in the wild.

 

[salty joe]

Somewhere back in this thread it was stated that medicating fish shortens their lifespan. IIRC, someone said it was documented.

Is their any evidence of it?

 

[Thales]

Somewhere back in this thread it was stated that medicating fish shortens their lifespan. IIRC, someone said it was documented.

Is their any evidence of it?

Unless the medication was directly involved in the death of the fish as part of the treatment, or overdosed to toxic levels, I am confident in saying that there is no evidence that medication shortens fishes lifespan.

 

[Paul B]

I have to give up because there is just to much to write and to much to disagree with. It's giving me a headache on top of my new knee ache.

 

[Amps Reef Life]

Wow!!! That was really good information. I am going to try and get my hands on some live worms to see how my fish respond to it maybe even look into breeding white worms.

 

[MnFish1]

Sick fish are a rare sight in the wild.

As a tank gets older, if you don't mess too much with it, it will find its own balance. There is something in this balance that keeps moving the tank closer and closer to the environment you find in the wild.

I am guessing that time can do that to most tanks and that's the reason that I think there is no quick recipe to Paul's method (or lack of method).

Whatever it is that is keeping the fish healthy in Paul's tank, it's probably the same things that keep fish healthy in the wild.

and every other tank
EDIT - sorry this off too soon. I agree with you especially if you leave the same fish in. Seems like this works just like in every other tank

 

[Ardeus]

I am upgrading my tank soon and I will be getting more fish so I am extremely interested in all that has been discussed here and I am trying to select things from both methods that I can easily do.

Good foods, quarantine in a reef like environment instead of a sterile tank, only treat if needed. UV and oxydator in the main tank.

 

[Frogger]

I have some serious reservations about adding soil from your garden to your reef tank. I understand the importance of biodiversity to increase competition to reduce diseases and pest in an eco-system but:.

I am not a marine biologist that specializes in the biodiversity of the worlds reefs. However I do know about urban soils. I find it difficult to believe that any organisms that live in our low ph O2 rich urban soils is going to thrive, let alone survive in high ph low O2 environment.

An old growth western red cedar forest soil in the Pacific Northwest has 50 billion microbes per teaspoon of organic matter. I can include references if requested. Even a second or third growth forest has merely a fraction of that biodiversity. Let alone the Ficus growing in my 2’ pot in the living room. It takes thousands of years for the soil in a healthy forest to attain that level of biodiversity. I cannot expect to take a hand full of soil from the old growth forest and put it in my potted plant and expect to attain even a tiny fraction of the biodiversity of the old growth forest. I would suspect the biodiversity on a reef that is potentially millions of years old would approach the same level of biodiversity in the sand or on the reef that the old growth forest has. Our reef tank even the thousand-gallon varieties is more kin to the planted pot. I do not believe that even the most biodiverse mini reef can even be compared to what happens in nature. We cannot even begin to consider housing the organisms necessary to achieve that goal. Be careful what you add to your tank see hitchhikers guide lionfishfair.com. Some of these will proliferate in your closed system.

Back to the soil from our garden. Most of the soil that is in your garden is highly disturbed, it is full of debris from previous things that have been dumped into through the years of its evolution since it was first cleared many years ago. Those contaminants include but are not limited to: pesticides, heavy metals (mercury, lead, zinc, copper, cadmium, nickel, manganese, lead, etc.) oil, asbestos and many other pollutants that could become toxic in our closed systems. reference (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705816322445) I can provide other references if requested. I believe adding it to our tanks is careless based on the anecdotal evidence that has been presented here.

 

[Paul B]

Just reread @Paul B OP and I can’t see where he mentions CI and ICK just an alternative method to no quarantine

There are a lot of things I didn't mention but some people are adding all sorts of things as things I said or implied. This is why I am extremely proud that I didn't have to go to college. I learned what I wanted to learn when I wanted to learn it which is why I may not have as many degrees as a thermometer but what I do have is common sense and street smarts. That's why when I got drafted I became a Sargent in 16 weeks which is all but impossible. That's why a few weeks after I finished my construction apprentice school I became a General Foreman on multi million dollar jobs that all made more money than we were supposed to and that's also why I have two United States Patents, wrote a book, have artwork in galleries in Manhattan and got home from work every day at 3:00.

That was not from college, it was from common sense. My Daughter who I love more than anything graduated at the top of her School, Fordham University and she dual majored. She is a genius but I don't think she knows how to wash a car. (I tell her all the time, I want my money back from Fordham)

I never said adding garden soil will do anything for immunity and I didn't invent that concept. The soil or mud is for biological diversity to give a more natural tank. If you have a quarantined tank and you never add any bacteria, the only bacteria you have in there is from your hands, food and the stuff from the LFS. The lfs only has bacteria from the wholesaler and they have the bacteria from the bottom of the canoe from the guy who collected the fish, so you may have a little athletes foot bacteria in there also. If you are worried about contaminants from soil, do something else. The ocean has every bacteria and contaminant in it and if a spoonful of soil where you live has so much contamination in it that you are worried about adding that to your tank, maybe you should move away from "Love Canal".

There was an experiment which I am sure yo heard of. It was some kind of Biodome where they carefully added certain fish, animals, bacteria and insects with no new influx of new diversity. It was supposed to be a self contained, self regulating, system that would keep going on it's own, making it's own oxygen and food from the plants. It was meant to be self sustaining. It failed. The people inside almost starved, Oxygen had to be added and most of the insects were taken over by ants. That's what happens if you don't add natural things from the environment.
The scientists who developed that concept didn't have the common sense to get it right. I knew that as soon as I learned about it.

I also never said that if you are immune from YYY, XXX or Lady GaGa you will also be immune to HHH, RRR or Myley Cyrus.
We all know that. In my miniscule mind I know the difference between a parasite and a bacteria and if you are immune from one, you will not necessarily be immune from the other.
There are studies that suggest that fish can be immune from one parasite and also be immune to similar parasites but I don't know that researcher and maybe his other job is in Chuck E Cheese so I am not sure if he is correct.

In this thread I posted what "I" do and have been doing for a long time. You can take parts of it and dissect them and say things like Ozone, UV sterilization, UG filters, algae scrubbers, diatom filters or mud and think that Is the key. But as I said numerous times, I don't use UV, my ozone has not been running in 5 months and I use a diatom filter a couple of hours a year for maintenance. If that is the key, do that.

I can look a fish in the eye and know what it is thinking, how he is feeling and probably can tell you the last four numbers of his social security number. I can also probably tell you when he will die (if he is in an LFS).
This comes from looking into the eyes of these guys for 60 years and spending multiple hours with them in their home in the sea. Not as a tourist, but as one of them. Laying on the sand just watching a fish for an hour or until I realize I left my phone in my Speedo.

This thread is about "My" thoughts on how to run a successful tank with no quarantine. I was asked to write it by Humblefish who believes strongly in quarantine and I totally respect his theories and never add my own thoughts into his threads that I made up from the dark recesses of my mind.

You have to quote people correctly or at least try to see what their thoughts are and not imply that he means something else.
Of course I can't see the parasite or bacteria, but being I have quite a bit of experience I can draw from that experience from dozens of cases and come up with an answer that seems plausible.
My tank is 100% immune from maybe everything. People don't like it when I say that. If one fish died from any disease I couldn't say that, but they didn't so, yes, I can say that. My tank may crash soon, but if it does, it has had one heck of a ride and I wouldn't call it or my methods a failure.
Weather or not I can communicate how I achieved this success may be a matter of debate and some of it is semantics. But in my high school mind, these are the methods I use. Dissect it all you want, but if your fish are not immune, you are not doing it right. I am trying to use my experience to teach. I don't know all the answers but it seems I know enough of them.