The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[atoll]

With regards to UG and reverse UG filters. Water will always take the least form of resistance therefore most of the water entering the sand etc will exit it close to the delivery pipe. Most or quite possibly none of it will travel more than a few inches from the pipe entering the UG plates. I seem to recall a study which used dye in something like a canister filter which pump the dyed water in reverse through UG plates most of the water exiting close to the UG pipe and no dyed water exited via the rest of the sand away from the UG pipe. .

 

[Paul B]

That is true with many UG filters, but the better ones have very small slots near the input tube and much larger ones farther away to try to solve much of that problem. But I am sure the problem still exists.

 

[atoll]

That is true with many UG filters, but the better ones have very small slots near the input tube and much larger ones farther away to try to solve much of that problem. But I am sure the problem still exists.

To be perfectly honest Paul I don't think it matters anyway. The top layer in an UG filter or just a sand bed probably harbours enough bacteria along with rock in the DT with plenty of flow around the tank will provide plenty of nitrifying bacteria to back up the UG in a mature tank at least.

 

[Converted to Saltwater]

Yep - If you take groups of 100 mice and exposed each group to different levels of a poison, for example. at a low dose maybe 10/100 will die at a medium dose maybe 50/100 will die at a higher dose maybe all will die. Part of it is the dose of CI presented to the fish, part of it is how susceptible genetically that fish is to developing CI. If you look at studies, there are data showing what dose of CI kills 50 % of exposed fish, for example.

Props for that that's a good point.

 

[Converted to Saltwater]

To be perfectly honest Paul I don't think it matters anyway. The top layer in an UG filter or just a sand bed probably harbours enough bacteria along with rock in the DT with plenty of flow around the tank will provide plenty of nitrifying bacteria to back up the UG in a mature tank at least.

Ok so I have taken care of a friend of mines aquarium while was in Iraq and it gave me all kinds of trouble. Thing is, he started it after he saw my small nano tank and decided to get an aquarium his self. He asked me how I modeled mine and dang if he didn't do the same thing. Problem was I had a ten gallon...he wanted to outdo me and got a 150 or 175. Anyway he did this right before he went overseas and he really did model mine to the T- even live rock, pound for pound. Suffice it to say his tank was ready to start new all wiped clean and dry. Well I'm not mean if I had been able to pay for what he needed I would have but what I'm getting at is I think it failed-no I know it failed because it was put up way to fast and nowhere near enough nitrifying bacteria and crustacean life and all that good stuff to support what he had. But if it can work in a very small tank to use power heads and live rock, live sand, and its well cycled mimics the conditions of the part of the ocean everything would live in naturally, why the need for a filter or even water changes. I remember one year, that I think I only did a water change or two. If its balanced, why the extra equipment? Not against it I just didn't need it with that tank.

 

[siggy]

The food with the guts I feel is a big part of the immunity but I have no proof

Balanced nutrition is of obvious key importance. In grade school we feed baby birds worms softened by water saturation and had 100% mortality. A wildlife biologist explained that we needed to include Hair, feathers and other natural by products GUTS in the diet Daily. Mortality dropped 75%.

 

[Converted to Saltwater]

Balanced nutrition is of obvious key importance. In grade school we feed baby birds worms softened by water saturation and had 100% mortality. A wildlife biologist explained that we needed to include Hair, feathers and other natural by products GUTS in the diet Daily. Mortality dropped 75%.

I like that. That's always been my philosophy, mimic nature. Every single time I tried to to play around with nature its backfired.

 

[Kmsutows]

Hi there. I haven't had a marine tank in several years (freshwater discus mostly for about 12 years) and in my freshwater tanks yes I ALWAYS FILTER ITS A MUST. On the flip side I have had two quite beautiful marine nano reefs and was able to keep one of them nearly completely self sustaining with power heads blowing through the live rock and slightly giving the sand bed a wave or two. Never had a filter with a saltwater tank. And they did not die they thrived. A few years ago I sold them because I had to move to Colorado in February and had invested so much in them I did not want the move to kill them so I sold them. I'm not challenging your methods at all as I am rusty now and could use advice I am wondering why the need for anything other than natural filtration. Bear in mind both my tanks were ten gal. Pretty hard to keep from crashing in a matter of hours if something goes wrong but never a problem. Although I was about in a panic when I would introduce a new coral and hope i didn't wake up to see a skeleton.
Just would like your thought on that as you might convince me otherwise this go around.
I have had luck with as natural as possible always. I have two cinnamon clowns now because someone was just going to flush them. I couldn't have that so I am holding them in a five gallon until I have them cured of...pretty sure velvet. But I used all natural stuff no copper or harsh chemicals and their are about ready for the transfer.

I think you may be confused on our methods. Are you implying Paul does not use a filter or are you just asking a general question of introducing a fish to your tank that had signs of velvet? What "all natural stuff" did you use? Filtration makes life easier.. I'm sure in your picos you needed to change water no? Fish waste has to go somewhere whether it be to a refugium, skimmer.. coral it's being filtered or used up by some means in order to be sustainable. It's that or lots of water changes

 

[Converted to Saltwater]

No it was just a general question that was all just picking your brain.

 

[MnFish1]

Mistake

 

[BryanD]

I've never lost a fish that I've quarantined first. I don't dip corals or inverts, but use a QT tank, not only to make sure it has no disease, but that it is eating and fat/happy before it goes in DT. I still highly recommend using a QT tank, especially for a newbie. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I've been in this hobby for over 40 years.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't know and I would have to guess. I don't like to guess. But if I had that clownfish, I would just put it in my tank and see what happens. That would be my learning experience as I like to learn by doing and not reading stuff on the net.

Right - I mean what choice would you have except to add the clownfish - but it is a non-immune fish and if put into a tank with CI - it has a high likelyhood of death. BTW - I have no question as to the fact that what you say is true - but I think that the reason you're successful is not so much that your fish are 'immune' - its that there are very low numbers of CI in your tank due to filtration and 'time' - i.e. the strains die out over the 6 months while those fish still have immunity.

Not losing a fish to disease in 3 years is certainly something to be proud of but that isn't enough time to measure anything as that is not even the lifespan of a pipefish.

You misunderstood - Im sure I would still have the fish if I hadn't added 3-4 fish from an online distributor to the tank. followed shortly thereafter by a power failure. The reason most people dont have fish as long as yours is not method - its that they stop the hobby, they ignore their tank, etc. IMHO - after the first couple months (the fish are in the tank, getting along, eating) - they are likely to live a long life even if fed freeze dried or frozen food and without added 'bacteria' from mud. Again not saying any of those things are 'bad'

 

[MnFish1]

Actually they found it is different with different fish species. But if those pathogens are living in your tank as they naturally do in the sea, the immunity will never lapse. That is my method.

Thanks for your replies BTW @PaulB. It probably is different for different fish -I have not seen those studies - either way - the quote one often hears here and on other forums is that immunity is 'gone' after 6 months - which is not true. The immunity levels have not been studied longer than 6 months so there is no way to say whether the immunity 'ever' goes away completely - but it was starting to drop off at the 6 month endpoint. There is also good data that a fish exposed once to CI - even if treated and put in a tank with no CI - will do better than a completely non-immune fish even much longer than 6 months (when reexposed to CI)

 

[MnFish1]

Here is an interesting ariticle - about immunity (describing the immune system in detail) - and also comparing feeding types with growth and health in a couple types of grouper. Most of it is related to rearing fish - but the take home message:

1. Feeding prepared foods with a proper protein/lipid ratio were more effective in growth rates and overall health than using ground up 'trash fish'.
2. The immune system in fish is extremely complex..

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468550X17300102

 

[Kmsutows]

No it was just a general question that was all just picking your brain.

I'd recommend always having a means to deal with an outbreak in the display. Whether it be UV, ozone, diatom filters... all are proven to reduce numbers. This allows the fish's immune system to work without getting overwhelmed. I'd say you're fine to add the clowns so long as you have UV or ozone. I keep my UV around but only run it on occasion. It may be a high initial cost but if it could save everything why not invest in it? Just my thoughts.

Feel free to PM me any other questions as to not take away from Paul's thread.

 

[Paul B]

but I think that the reason you're successful is not so much that your fish are 'immune' - its that there are very low numbers of CI in your tank due to filtration and 'time' - i.e. the strains die out over the 6 months while those fish still have immunity.

Of course I don't know the CI numbers in my tank, but I do know that I added about 8 fish in the last 5 months and one, as I mentioned, a clown gobi was totally covered in ich. He is fine and I didn't do anything. The rest of the fish were just put into my tank like all my fish and they are also fine. 2 dragon face pipefish, a queen anthius, scooter bleeny and a couple that I forgot.

MnFish, Thanks for the link. I read it as well as all the studies I could find before I started my Immunity article and my book. Virtually all studies are made on food fish because no one would pay anyone to study hobby fish which have no food value.

Here is a quote from that link talking about immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans : (
Aquaculture and Fisheries
Volume 3, Issue 2, March 2018, Pages 51-61
open access
)

Mucosal immunity was investigated in the skin transcriptome of E. coioides infested with Cryptocaryon irritans and revealed a multitude of upregulated genes that suggested an activated local immune response (Hu et al., 2017), corroborating and adding to the findings of previous studies (Li et al., 2011a, Li et al., 2011b, Li et al., 2012, Li et al., 2014, Mo et al., 2017, Ni et al., 2017). For example, innate factors involved in the acute phase response, natural resistance, and iron homeostasis such as serum amyloid A and hepcidin, cathepsins, together with transferrin and TFR1, respectively, were present in high levels. A number of PRRs (TLR1, TLR2, TLR5, TLR5S) and their respective downstream signalling molecules (MyD88, AP-1, IRF3, IRF7) and effectors (TNFα, IL1, IL6, IL8, IL12, IFNβ) were also upregulated. Increase in the levels of dendritic cell markers (CD83, CD209) suggested antigen presentation while markers associated with T cells (CD4, CD9, CD48) and B cells (CD22, CD81, Lyn) indicated lymphocyte activation.


This talks about giving vaccines to fish and the need to re-vaccinate in order to keep the immunity:
Quote:
Anamnesis observed in these studies showed effective protection rendered by the vaccines, which could prevent vertical transmission of the virus to fish egg or larvae if broodstocks are regularly vaccinated and given booster doses.

This is my favorite part and the basis of my practice of feeding living pathogens to my fish, It shows how in the posterior intestine pathogens are recognized and elicit an immune response:

Quote:
The anterior intestine facilitated digestion and absorption of nutrients by having the most numerous and longest villi, the midgut served as a transition phase involved in both absorption and innate immunity, while the posterior gut had the thickest lamina propria which provided space to harbour a large number of lymphoid cells involved in adaptive immunity. White blood cells were observed in the gut as early as 30 days after hatching and became well established by 60 days, and indicated the maturation state of the immune system and the appropriate age for executing an immunological intervention.

 

[Ardeus]

Of course I don't know the CI numbers in my tank, but I do know that I added about 8 fish in the last 5 months and one, as I mentioned, a clown gobi was totally covered in ich. He is fine and I didn't do anything. The rest of the fish were just put into my tank like all my fish and they are also fine. 2 dragon face pipefish, a queen anthius, scooter bleeny and a couple that I forgot.

MnFish, Thanks for the link. I read it as well as all the studies I could find before I started my Immunity article and my book. Virtually all studies are made on food fish because no one would pay anyone to study hobby fish which have no food value.

Here is a quote from that link talking about immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans : (
Aquaculture and Fisheries
Volume 3, Issue 2, March 2018, Pages 51-61
open access
)

Mucosal immunity was investigated in the skin transcriptome of E. coioides infested with Cryptocaryon irritans and revealed a multitude of upregulated genes that suggested an activated local immune response (Hu et al., 2017), corroborating and adding to the findings of previous studies (Li et al., 2011a, Li et al., 2011b, Li et al., 2012, Li et al., 2014, Mo et al., 2017, Ni et al., 2017). For example, innate factors involved in the acute phase response, natural resistance, and iron homeostasis such as serum amyloid A and hepcidin, cathepsins, together with transferrin and TFR1, respectively, were present in high levels. A number of PRRs (TLR1, TLR2, TLR5, TLR5S) and their respective downstream signalling molecules (MyD88, AP-1, IRF3, IRF7) and effectors (TNFα, IL1, IL6, IL8, IL12, IFNβ) were also upregulated. Increase in the levels of dendritic cell markers (CD83, CD209) suggested antigen presentation while markers associated with T cells (CD4, CD9, CD48) and B cells (CD22, CD81, Lyn) indicated lymphocyte activation.


This talks about giving vaccines to fish and the need to re-vaccinate in order to keep the immunity:
Quote:
Anamnesis observed in these studies showed effective protection rendered by the vaccines, which could prevent vertical transmission of the virus to fish egg or larvae if broodstocks are regularly vaccinated and given booster doses.

This is my favorite part and the basis of my practice of feeding living pathogens to my fish, It shows how in the posterior intestine pathogens are recognized and elicit an immune response:

Quote:
The anterior intestine facilitated digestion and absorption of nutrients by having the most numerous and longest villi, the midgut served as a transition phase involved in both absorption and innate immunity, while the posterior gut had the thickest lamina propria which provided space to harbour a large number of lymphoid cells involved in adaptive immunity. White blood cells were observed in the gut as early as 30 days after hatching and became well established by 60 days, and indicated the maturation state of the immune system and the appropriate age for executing an immunological intervention.

Paul, have you considered the possibility that the immunity may lie also in your tank, perhaps even more than in the fish?

These parasites have things that prey on them for sure and maybe they are in your tank in balance.

 

[MnFish1]

Of course I don't know the CI numbers in my tank, but I do know that I added about 8 fish in the last 5 months and one, as I mentioned, a clown gobi was totally covered in ich. He is fine and I didn't do anything. The rest of the fish were just put into my tank like all my fish and they are also fine. 2 dragon face pipefish, a queen anthius, scooter bleeny and a couple that I forgot.

MnFish, Thanks for the link. I read it as well as all the studies I could find before I started my Immunity article and my book. Virtually all studies are made on food fish because no one would pay anyone to study hobby fish which have no food value.

Here is a quote from that link talking about immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans : (
Aquaculture and Fisheries
Volume 3, Issue 2, March 2018, Pages 51-61
open access
)

Mucosal immunity was investigated in the skin transcriptome of E. coioides infested with Cryptocaryon irritans and revealed a multitude of upregulated genes that suggested an activated local immune response (Hu et al., 2017), corroborating and adding to the findings of previous studies (Li et al., 2011a, Li et al., 2011b, Li et al., 2012, Li et al., 2014, Mo et al., 2017, Ni et al., 2017). For example, innate factors involved in the acute phase response, natural resistance, and iron homeostasis such as serum amyloid A and hepcidin, cathepsins, together with transferrin and TFR1, respectively, were present in high levels. A number of PRRs (TLR1, TLR2, TLR5, TLR5S) and their respective downstream signalling molecules (MyD88, AP-1, IRF3, IRF7) and effectors (TNFα, IL1, IL6, IL8, IL12, IFNβ) were also upregulated. Increase in the levels of dendritic cell markers (CD83, CD209) suggested antigen presentation while markers associated with T cells (CD4, CD9, CD48) and B cells (CD22, CD81, Lyn) indicated lymphocyte activation.


This talks about giving vaccines to fish and the need to re-vaccinate in order to keep the immunity:
Quote:
Anamnesis observed in these studies showed effective protection rendered by the vaccines, which could prevent vertical transmission of the virus to fish egg or larvae if broodstocks are regularly vaccinated and given booster doses.

This is my favorite part and the basis of my practice of feeding living pathogens to my fish, It shows how in the posterior intestine pathogens are recognized and elicit an immune response:

Quote:
The anterior intestine facilitated digestion and absorption of nutrients by having the most numerous and longest villi, the midgut served as a transition phase involved in both absorption and innate immunity, while the posterior gut had the thickest lamina propria which provided space to harbour a large number of lymphoid cells involved in adaptive immunity. White blood cells were observed in the gut as early as 30 days after hatching and became well established by 60 days, and indicated the maturation state of the immune system and the appropriate age for executing an immunological intervention.

I thought you would like it - and none of it supports feeding live food or adding bacteria/mud to ensure immunity. The problem with your logic - is that, for example, there is no evidence that you're feeding cryptokaryon (to induce specific immunity). There's no evidence that you're feeding velvet (to induce specific immunity) - which is what the gut immunity is for (i.e. the posterior gut - adaptive immunity). Perhaps its a mis use of a word - but 'pathogen' is not the same as 'bacteria'. A pathogen is something that causes a disease in the organisms being 'fed'. You have no clue whether you're feeding cryptokaryon or oodinium in your clams/blackworms, etc. In fact - since they are killed with freezing - and you have said that you freeze clams and slice them thin - the likelihood that you are feeding lots of parasites is probably false. Unless you are feeding rotting clams. Most healthy living 'things' dont contain large numbers of pathogens.

 

[Paul B]

I really don't know.
I feel it is the abundance of pathogens in my tank but it could be the pictures of Supermodels I have on the walls.

Notice the date on that picture 1986. Thats how long I have that picture. I am not a Perv. I like to look at pretty girls, nice looking fish, insects, buildings, paintings etc and I will never apologize for it.

 

[MnFish1]

Of course I don't know the CI numbers in my tank, but I do know that I added about 8 fish in the last 5 months and one, as I mentioned, a clown gobi was totally covered in ich. He is fine and I didn't do anything. The rest of the fish were just put into my tank like all my fish and they are also fine. 2 dragon face pipefish, a queen anthius, scooter bleeny and a couple that I forgot.

And chances are that this fish survived. It doesnt mean anything about your tank. The others probably are immune to CI. The issue is whether feeding 'live foods and bacteria' makes any difference as compared to frozen/flake/pellets. IMHO it does not. Thats also the conclusion of the article I provided - that said - in fish farming at least - the growth rates were far higher with a formulated pellet (made of chicken etc) than merely grinding up fish and feeding them.