The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[truepercs]

From other forums I have read folks even have there own "secret organic compost recipe" they have found to help with plant growth and a natural way to deal with pests.

 

[dportero]

From other forums I have read folks even have there own "secret organic compost recipe" they have found to help with plant growth and a natural way to deal with pests.

Do you have a way to get this secret recipe?

 

[truepercs]

Do you have a way to get this secret recipe?

Ha.... No but I am sure that if you hop on forums that have sections regarding Organic compost you can easily get some input that will help you make your own black gold...

 

[Matt Carden]

I just picked this up

https://m.lowes.com/pd/Alaska-Fish-Fertilizer-1-Quart-All-Purpose-Food/3083645

Good idea or bad?

 

[Jay Norris]

If you all want mud from the Atlantic Ocean or Florida Bay, I will only charge you $5.00LB, plus shipping, and I will get you all the mud you want.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well, this was an interesting article to say the least.

Only Paul B!

 

[MnFish1]

1. I don't QT.
2. I don't feed 'live foods'
3. I dont use ozone or UV
4. I haven't lost a fish (except to jumping out) - in 3 years (ie. velvet/ich) - and this was after ordering from an online company (which I no longer do).

So - is my method any better/worse that @Paul B?

The problem is that its impossible to judge cause/effect... Is is the Uv? Is it the food? Is it the mud? Is it .........

IMHO - its low stocking density (which I also employ), keeping healthy parameters, fish choice, and good food overall. I don't believe it requires live food, extra bacteria. There are so many people that have tried this - as compared to the 4-5 that are successful - that I think that tells a story. In any case - with all respect to @Paul B. There is no way to know what part of his methods are the reason for his obvious success.

Fish develop immunity to CI - they will not get it again. There is lots of evidence that after 10-11 generations, that CI will 'die out' of a tank. Not every fish has CI or velvet - thus - QT makes no difference (i.e. we think we're doing something with QT - but the fish may already be immune) - and in reality it makes no difference. here is no right or wrong method. And probably both methods (Pauls and QT) are flawed - but work for some and not for others. Just saying - I dont think there is magic going on here.

 

[MnFish1]

All these diseases and such are in the ocean. If there wasn’t a natural way for fish to be resistant, all fish would be dead by now. If a fish is not stressed and has good water conditions, they will be fine. I feel it is less stressful to put them directly into a display with lots of rock (natural environment) than a bare QT tank with meds. If a fish has obvious signs of an illness, I am all for treating it first. If no signs of illness then in the display it goes. I also prefer live rock and as much diversity as I can get. I don’t like how our hobby has become so sterile!

Believe it or not - in every tank - there are LOTS and LOTS of bacteria - they do not need to be 'added' in food. The reason (so I've heard) that fish in the wild don't die - but become immune - is because the concentration of CI in the water is so much lower than the enclosed area of our tanks.

 

[theMeat]

1. I don't QT.
2. I don't feed 'live foods'
3. I dont use ozone or UV
4. I haven't lost a fish (except to jumping out) - in 3 years (ie. velvet/ich) - and this was after ordering from an online company (which I no longer do).

So - is my method any better/worse that @Paul B?

The problem is that its impossible to judge cause/effect... Is is the Uv? Is it the food? Is it the mud? Is it .........

IMHO - its low stocking density (which I also employ), keeping healthy parameters, fish choice, and good food overall. I don't believe it requires live food, extra bacteria. There are so many people that have tried this - as compared to the 4-5 that are successful - that I think that tells a story. In any case - with all respect to @Paul B. There is no way to know what part of his methods are the reason for his obvious success.

Fish develop immunity to CI - they will not get it again. There is lots of evidence that after 10-11 generations, that CI will 'die out' of a tank. Not every fish has CI or velvet - thus - QT makes no difference (i.e. we think we're doing something with QT - but the fish may already be immune) - and in reality it makes no difference. here is no right or wrong method. And probably both methods (Pauls and QT) are flawed - but work for some and not for others. Just saying - I dont think there is magic going on here.

Enjoyed this post and agree with all of it. Except that fish won’t get ci again once they’v had it. Simply not true

 

[MnFish1]

Enjoyed this post and agree with all of it. Except that fish won’t get ci again once they’v had it. Simply not true

You're correct - there was something missing - they will not get it again as long as they are exposed to it periodically - the studies show immunity starts to drop after 6 months. The problem with the studies is that they stopped measuring at 6 months - not that immunity went away. There is simply no data beyond 6months. . This is the conundrum. If you have a fish thats had ich (and this is proven) if it gets it again - its much less likely to die - even a long time after - as compared to fish that were never exposed.

I guess all the people that breed angelfish, clowns, (as a business) etc are intentionally exposing their fish to parasites - because thats the only way to keep them healthy. (I do not believe they are).

 

[radiata]

I did a big water change and ran some carbon and opened the drapes to hit it with some sun. Reused that rock for my reef tank later on..no problems. I had a hitchiker hermit in there who went dorment during CP but once removed he came back to life...biz as usual.

CP kills algae so once you remove the CP you will see algae return and that's a good indicator.

Yes space. I still had a QT tank when I lived in a studio apt. It's just how badly a person wants one vs whatever other furniture they have or how Feng shui their bedroom needs to be :d

The use of both hermits and algae observations are interesting bellwethers on CP elimination. Was the algae Macro or Micro? I've had some red Gracilaria in a CP treatment tank that seems to be unaffected...

 

[thom_smith]

It would seem as though you're playing with fire not quarantining, but you've piqued my interest. Following. Got a lot of catching up to do!

 

[MnFish1]

So - I go to the LFS - I buy a clownfish not exposed to CI (say a tank raised fish) - @PaulB Do I just drop him/her into an immune tank (there is no way this fish has immunity) - or do I keep it separate for several weeks feeding it high quality foods, etc ( because I guarantee you that the fish will not be getting that quality at the LFS in all likelyhood). This is the problem with he cause/effect issue as to what makes success in Pauls tank - because no newly added fish has guaranteed immunity to parasites in his tank and they have not been fed/treated with his methods (and feeding a fish a couple days with good food will not build up a malnourished fish - it takes weeks. So there are 2 possibilities. There is no CI in Paul's tank (due to it dying off, sterilization methods in effect) or any fish added to Paul's tank is already immune to the strains of CI in Pauls tank. If Paul seperates his fish out and feeds them well for some period before adding them to the tank - thats also a QT method. My guess its a combination of the first 2 reasons.

 

[Tamberav]

The use of both hermits and algae observations are interesting bellwethers on CP elimination. Was the algae Macro or Micro? I've had some red Gracilaria in a CP treatment tank that seems to be unaffected...

Micro is what I was referring to. Although I would guess something like ulva or less complex macro would not fair well.

 

[Matt Carden]

So - I go to the LFS - I buy a clownfish not exposed to CI (say a tank raised fish) - @PaulB Do I just drop him/her into an immune tank (there is no way this fish has immunity) - or do I keep it separate for several weeks feeding it high quality foods, etc ( because I guarantee you that the fish will not be getting that quality at the LFS in all likelyhood). This is the problem with he cause/effect issue as to what makes success in Pauls tank - because no newly added fish has guaranteed immunity to parasites in his tank and they have not been fed/treated with his methods (and feeding a fish a couple days with good food will not build up a malnourished fish - it takes weeks. So there are 2 possibilities. There is no CI in Paul's tank (due to it dying off, sterilization methods in effect) or any fish added to Paul's tank is already immune to the strains of CI in Pauls tank. If Paul seperates his fish out and feeds them well for some period before adding them to the tank - thats also a QT method. My guess its a combination of the first 2 reasons.

How long would it take CI to kill a never before exposed fish? Days, weeks? Is there enough time for the fish to develop immunity?

Certain human viruses can kill some people while others get sick and recover. Some of that comes from genetic immunity. 1% of Caucasians are genetically immune to HIV. I didn't keep searching for a scientific paper but here's an article about this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hivplusmag.com/research-breakthroughs/2016/3/23/anyone-immune-hiv?amp

 

[Converted to Saltwater]

One neat factor: Paul's method is working in my freshwater which is grossly overstocked with fish that had ich on them at time of addition from lfs

By using no plastic decor but mud base with 130 lbs of tank driftwood + plants sold out of a twenty year system, the ideal aged natural substrates Paul favors and uses in his immune approach (plus feeding), my fw system suppresses disease without medication

Ich dots leave any added fish, go into the system I guess but at year one it doesn't express. This tank is really well exported, it's high flow and high fish stocking that in lesser environmental conditions would require constant meds. There's approximately 30 fish in a 55, it's full.


I'm feeding the best possible foods, even live tisbe pods at times. Cut up market food, I'm able to literally replicate Paul's method in freshwater all day long if that helps

I know fw sw isn't a direct correlation between crypto/ ich but I do employ this method, wanted to state.

Getting a group of Petco or lfs shoppers to perform this task in marine, with all its inherent variables, really tough work am thinking. They have access to market quality feed however, a big portion of Paul’s success is feed quality. and they have via internet trading the ability to source reef-specific (real reef) substrates somehow, get a chunk of maricultured rock that looks like Medusa, it adds the oceanic diversity, micropods, that his system presents as the ideal suppressant to disease. The way I see it, if you hit those two variables hard you have a chance to replicate Paul’s system, leave one out and it’s imbalanced. Literal marine substrates, or even mud and in some case ocean water or maricultured rock bring a competition aspect into tanks that we can’t replace without harsh meds and qt/fallow/xfer

Ok this is so cool I could not agree more, at least when it comes to freshwater fish. My discus were not healthy the first two years I kept trying them. I was determined to raise Jack dempseys. Not only raise but spawn as well, I have a rule if the hobby doesn't pay for itself I don't do it. Its what got me to breeding. Now I'm getting back into saltwater and have a question...about mud. Georgia clay is more like terracotta. Iron iron iron. Wash your clothes with well water they can actually get small,rust flakes in them. I had this idea a while back about goin all-natural but afraid of heavy metals. I have a small clean,creek on my property and I live on 60 acres the water comes from our own lake, and on a clear day I can't tell the difference between the creek sand and sand by the beach over here. My question is and no turning back now, I sold my freshwater stuff late last night minus some powerfilters and lights; would creek bed be as good ad mud?I am starting a reef tank and have not had experience with marine in years until I rescued a couple clown fish the other day. Forgot what I was missing. But marine tanks are nailbiting when you can easily pay 80 100 dollars for a stony polyp of some sort and wake up the next morning and one tiny little thing was off and its a fossil. So I like the idea do you think freshwater sand for marine would work or should a drive to gulf shores for some sand be more wise. I'm always game for trying something new

 

[Converted to Saltwater]

How long would it take CI to kill a never before exposed fish? Days, weeks? Is there enough time for the fish to develop immunity?

Certain human viruses can kill some people while others get sick and recover. Some of that comes from genetic immunity. 1% of Caucasians are genetically immune to HIV. I didn't keep searching for a scientific paper but here's an article about this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hivplusmag.com/research-breakthroughs/2016/3/23/anyone-immune-hiv?amp

Immunity is a real thing.

 

[Converted to Saltwater]

In my opinion, and I know we've argued at length about, you should point out all that encompasses your setup. I know you insist the ozone and diatom filtration doesnt do anything (even though you've always used them for 40yrs) but many others like myself would argue this is just as important as good nutrition for your fish and should be pointed out for those interested in replicating your setup.

Hi there. I haven't had a marine tank in several years (freshwater discus mostly for about 12 years) and in my freshwater tanks yes I ALWAYS FILTER ITS A MUST. On the flip side I have had two quite beautiful marine nano reefs and was able to keep one of them nearly completely self sustaining with power heads blowing through the live rock and slightly giving the sand bed a wave or two. Never had a filter with a saltwater tank. And they did not die they thrived. A few years ago I sold them because I had to move to Colorado in February and had invested so much in them I did not want the move to kill them so I sold them. I'm not challenging your methods at all as I am rusty now and could use advice I am wondering why the need for anything other than natural filtration. Bear in mind both my tanks were ten gal. Pretty hard to keep from crashing in a matter of hours if something goes wrong but never a problem. Although I was about in a panic when I would introduce a new coral and hope i didn't wake up to see a skeleton.
Just would like your thought on that as you might convince me otherwise this go around.
I have had luck with as natural as possible always. I have two cinnamon clowns now because someone was just going to flush them. I couldn't have that so I am holding them in a five gallon until I have them cured of...pretty sure velvet. But I used all natural stuff no copper or harsh chemicals and their are about ready for the transfer.

 

[MnFish1]

How long would it take CI to kill a never before exposed fish? Days, weeks? Is there enough time for the fish to develop immunity?

Certain human viruses can kill some people while others get sick and recover. Some of that comes from genetic immunity. 1% of Caucasians are genetically immune to HIV. I didn't keep searching for a scientific paper but here's an article about this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hivplusmag.com/research-breakthroughs/2016/3/23/anyone-immune-hiv?amp

Yep - If you take groups of 100 mice and exposed each group to different levels of a poison, for example. at a low dose maybe 10/100 will die at a medium dose maybe 50/100 will die at a higher dose maybe all will die. Part of it is the dose of CI presented to the fish, part of it is how susceptible genetically that fish is to developing CI. If you look at studies, there are data showing what dose of CI kills 50 % of exposed fish, for example.

 

[Paul B]

So - I go to the LFS - I buy a clownfish not exposed to CI (say a tank raised fish) - @PaulB Do I just drop him/her into an immune tank (there is no way this fish has immunity) - or do I keep it separate for several weeks feeding it high quality foods, etc

I don't know and I would have to guess. I don't like to guess. But if I had that clownfish, I would just put it in my tank and see what happens. That would be my learning experience as I like to learn by doing and not reading stuff on the net.

Some of that comes from genetic immunity. 1% of Caucasians are genetically immune to HIV. I didn't keep searching for a scientific paper but here's an article about this.

Actually many people of European decent are immune to HIV because the ones that survived the "Black Death" from the Plague became immune.
We thought the Plague was bacteria from rats but new studies reveal a lot of those diseases that we assumed were plague bacteria were in fact viral and the survivors and their offspring developed immunity from certain viruses.
(I just took a 6 hour course on the Plague )

the studies show immunity starts to drop after 6 months.

Actually they found it is different with different fish species. But if those pathogens are living in your tank as they naturally do in the sea, the immunity will never lapse. That is my method.

It would seem as though you're playing with fire not quarantining, but you've piqued my interest. Following

If you do it wrong, yes it is like playing with fire, just like quarantining is if you do it wrong.

4. I haven't lost a fish (except to jumping out) - in 3 years (ie. velvet/ich) - and this was after ordering from an online company (which I no longer do).

Not losing a fish to disease in 3 years is certainly something to be proud of but that isn't enough time to measure anything as that is not even the lifespan of a pipefish. But it is better than most people get. My fish have been immune since I developed my method, or lack of method almost 40 years ago.
You are also correct, I don't even know which part of my system is the key to success so why not try it all.
I doubt the UG filter helps much, but it could. The food with the guts I feel is a big part of the immunity but I have no proof. I feel it is the addition of non quarantined fish with all the diseases they carry from the sea and dealers tanks. But of course I am guessing as I am not the God of fish. Just reverse undergravel filters.
I also believe that quarantining for 30 days will not hurt the fish as long as it is not medicated. I would make sure that fish is eating the foods that I mention in that time and if you see a spot or two, don't dip it or do anything else unless it gets much worse. But that fish can't be stressed so It needs to be in a real tank with real sand and coral rock, not PVC pipes. Fish hate PVC pipes because they know that when they croak, they get flushed and that's the last thing they see.