The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[PapaDragon]

Hi Paul
There are a lot of posts in this thread and I have not been able to read all of them. Sorry if what I am saying has all ready been covered.
You mentioned earlier that your fish live for long periods and that in the past 5 months you have added 8 fish. Why the need to add so many fish when your fish live so long?

Personally I have been keeping saltwater fish tanks since the mid 80's and also currently have a couple clowns currently in my tank that are 25 year+ old. I have done both methods and have found that quarantining in a separate reef tank where I can keep any eye on a fish for several months to be sure that he is healthy, eating and is comfortable with my schedules before I add the new fish to my display tank. I isolate the new addition within the display tank to avoid it being picked on. I have had good success with this method and don't want to risk loosing my other fish (that I feel are part of my family). I have never added 8 new fish in a period of 5 months. There is some pretty nasty stuff out there and I have lost too many healthy fish by not taking the proper precautions.

My concern is your successes will only validate other reefers that dumping a newly acquired fish from the local fish store will result in the same results you have seen.

@Frogger do you medicate immediately or just monitor to see if medications are necessary? I plan to only medicate if I see an issue. Also have you done your method with tangs? I know Paul doesn’t keep them, but I think they are great reef citizens that provide a service. Unfortunately, they are also the fish that suffers from parasites most frequently according to the forums. It maybe that they are just easily stressed.

 

[Frogger]

Hi Papadragon
I am very particular about what I buy and how I quarantine them. I keep them in a smaller 15 gallon mini reef with rocks, snails and crabs. There are lots of places to hide. The tank has been set up for several years. Right now I have a one spot foxface in it for the past 3 months. I do not medicate, I isolate. I guess if I had to I could take them out of quarantine and put them in a separate 10 gallon and medicate. I rarely loose a fish in quarantine. I think I lost one yellow tang in quarantine in the past 5 years, I think the male Emerald crab I had in quarantine with him got hungry and went after the tang. I have a separate 35 gallon reef tank that I used to use, however I stopped using it because I could not easily get the fish out. I currently have a flame angel, 2 springers damsels and a green chromis in there. They have been in the tank for almost 2 years now and I guess they can just stay there. I use this tank to quarantine all the corals I buy for at least 3 months doing regular checks with a dissecting scope on each piece for undesirables.

Yes I have used it on the last two tangs I purchased, a kole tang and a yellow tang. The yellow tang unfortunately died 6 months ago because the temperature in the display tank got too high in the summer. My display tank is not free of parasites, I have ich. I noticed my kole tang had a couple of spots on it a few weeks ago, but they have since gone away. It has been in the tank for at least 20 years. I have found reduce stress and the healthy fish do not have problems with it.

The biggest issue I have is how to add a new fish to the tank without stressing all of the inhabitants and the new fish. Clownfish and tangs can be very territorial and relentless to new inhabitants. I put the new fish in a large quarantine box inside the tank for a couple weeks. Then I put a mirror up against one side of the tank to distract the fish when I release the new occupant. Ideally I like to add two fish at a time to help spread out the animosity. I am waiting to catch one of the occupants of my 35 to introduce them at the same time as the foxface.

I am not recommending this method it is only what I have found to work for me. I have not had very much success in the past with dumping a newly purchased fish directly in to the tank, too much stress.

 

[fishybizzness]

If we are to achieve things never before accomplished we must employ methods never before attempted

Francis Bacon

 

[fragit]

I started reefing in the late 90s, and like many have stated not a lot of information other than books was available. Luckily I had a really good LFS in Rhode Island to help show me the way. They would observe their fish before selling for at least 6 days. I never quarantined fish back then. I still didn’t QT then and it bit me. I am from Maine and moved back in 2001 at this time not a lot of LFS were around. There still isn’t. I moved my tank 3 times, bought fish corals and inverts never with issues. I broke that tank down in 2006. I set up a new system in 2009 with rock that I purchased from an established system. I had a pair of clowns that breeded monthly that had been with me from the start. I continued to purchase livestock locally without QT. One day I decided I wanted some fish I could not fis locally so I ordered from LA. My tank crashed I think one fish survived. I was devastated, I had a breeding pair of clowns that were 10 year old, and other fish that had been with me for about 4 years die. I think it was velvet but at the time had no idea what happened except all my fish died. I kept the tank running until 2014, and didn’t change my ways.

When I set up my current tank in 2016 I did a lot of research here as I wanted to do things different this time around. I set up a QT for my fish and got a script from my vet for CP. I have done a combo of TTM and CP for my current livestock except for two Anthias that were the first in the tank. I have not QT any inverts. All my livestock has come from the same LFS. I have killed a few fish in the QT process. Ammonia, spinal injuries, starvation, stress or using CP when I shouldn’t have killed fish.

I love @paul B’s ideas and theories and have employed a couple of them like trying to feed live foods whenever possible, not using dried foods, and collecting pods and muck from the beach. I grew up running around outside eating dirt, never used hand sanitizer etc and was rarely sick. I’m a nurse and understand immunity, vaccines, and disease processes more than the average person. I believe in vaccinations, and exposure to germs and practice this in my own life as well as in my kids. I think that exposure leads to a more alert and robust immune system. I think that true immunity is very rare and that a strong resistance to bacteria and viruses is more common. Vaccines are a way of keeping the bodies immune system on the hunt for invaders. I am not suggesting that we vaccinate our fish, rather that some exposure does keep their immune systems alert and active.

While reading this thread it occurred to me that my QT protocol is all for not as every snail, shrimp and hermit in my tank has come from the same systems/tanks as the fish from the LFS and none have been quarantined. So I have set up an observation tank that is 29gallons with sand and rock from my DT. I will watch new acquisitions for a few days to a week for signs of illness then into the DT they will go. If any signs of illness I have my TTM tanks on stand by for more drastic measures.

I make my own food with whole fresh seafood from the local monger, feed live black worms when i can and feed frozen prepared foods when I don’t have any homemade food. I have not had any signs of disease in my system to date. I have 4 fish that survived a 6 day power outage October 2017, where the water temp dropped to 56 degrees so they are either super tough, I got lucky, or they are very healthy. I would like to think they are very healthy.

I don’t think that treating with chemicals, medications, poisons, or the stress of TTM prophylactically is good for the fish. Professionally I hate seeing patients get antibiotics prophylactically for an unknown illness as I think that over treatment with antibiotics has drastically reduced their effectiveness as evidenced by the rise of drug resistant organisms.

So my plan moving forward as far as adding live stock is going to be to purchase what appear to be healthy animals. Observe them for signs of stress or disease, feed well, and if all is good they go in the DT. If I see white spots, bacterial infections or other signs of disease I will treat the best I can.

I think what the essence of this thread is, all of @Humblefish’s work and others, @paul B’s method (not method) is that a combination approach of observation, whole foods, exposure, and QT protocols is going to be the least stressful and immunologically have the best long term results for our fish.

Lastly thanks to all for the great reading over the last few days. There have been many good points, conversations, and ideas shared. This is what makes R2R the best forum on the web!

 

[salty joe]

I can't imagine very many sand sifting gobies or jawfish or dragonettes surviving a bare bottom tank with meds. For that reason, I have to lean towards not treating all fish. And if you're not going to medicate certain fish, the utility of only treating some is greatly diminished, IMO.

I've done the no QT and one thing that bothered me was a worm the thickness of a thread that often stuck out of a Rainfordi goby's mouth. The goby seemed to do well, but still. I'm thinking a cleaner shrimp or wrasse might be critical in a no QT setup.

Strong arguments all around-outstanding thread!

 

[Neptune 555]

Hi Paul,

How did you get your nitrates down from 160 and keep them down for coral? and really that high and angel fish were fine? thanks!!

After years of arguing against Paul’s logic, and now years of agreeing, have to say i’m Never going back. Unless a new fish is obviously unhealthy from stress or shows signs of brook do not qt. IMO sometimes a fish can use a few days of alone time to recuperate, and even then it’s not in sterile water. The qt is filled with water straight from display. Which I know has ich and yes, I have tangs. A 7” hippo, 6” sailfin, 5” purple, and 4” bpt

 

[Neptune 555]

After years of arguing against Paul’s logic, and now years of agreeing, have to say i’m Never going back. Unless a new fish is obviously unhealthy from stress or shows signs of brook do not qt. IMO sometimes a fish can use a few days of alone time to recuperate, and even then it’s not in sterile water. The qt is filled with water straight from display. Which I know has ich and yes, I have tangs. A 7” hippo, 6” sailfin, 5” purple, and 4” bpt

Did the tangs get ich and live through it? What size tank? I have yellow and blue hippo tang I want to add sailfin in a 180. How did you make the transition from Qt to feeding well? How do you introduce fish now?

Neptune

 

[Matthew Frost]

@paul

Paul, can you provide a link to your YouTube videos?

 

[hotashes]

@paul

Paul, can you provide a link to your YouTube videos?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDCaXm74Uu9aiTwnVub3xOg

A.

 

[Paul B]

I didn't get the nitrates down. I moved and took everything with me but only used maybe 20 gallons of my water because after removing all my rock and coral, it was to muddy to save so I just collected new water.
I guess you just go here And search for Paul Baldassano. Thats what I do

 

[theMeat]

Did the tangs get ich and live through it? What size tank? I have yellow and blue hippo tang I want to add sailfin in a 180. How did you make the transition from Qt to feeding well? How do you introduce fish now?

Neptune

Short answer,
220 with 55 gal fuge, and 30 gallon sump.
Yes, they lived through ich, and lympho. Have huge hippo, big saifin, big purple, med pbt. Angels and many others.

A lil history.
always fed pretty well. Have increased fresh food in recent years.
Always qt and treated new arrivals and had many meds on hand for whatever came up. Got pretty good at fixing sick fish this way. About 7-8 years ago got ick in my 110 mixed reef and 72 gal Fowlr. After years of dif types of copper, hypo, tank transfer, ich just kept coming back. Just made me be more thorough. Even had qt in separate room with completely dif set of tools, nets, feeding cups etc. After 100 days of cupramine treatment, followed by 2 rounds of prazi, then a month of observation, with my 220 fallow the whole time put all fish back into display only to see ich return. Said that’s it. They will live or die but not going through that any more. Ich cleared up. Figured it would come back. Figured I only saw it clear because of their life cycle. But I only occasionally saw a dot or two every month or two till I saw it less frequently. Much less. A friend gave me a purple tang that had ick and a really bad case of lle. Put purple in qt, started treatment, he got much worse quickly. Came home one day and saw her at bottom of qt breathing heavy. She was dying. Said f this and put her straight into display. Figured she’d die and tank would be wrecked. Instead of ich spreading to other fish, the purple recovered. That was about 4 years ago. All fish still living.
I now put healthy fish straight into tank. After accumulating of course. If fish’s health is compromised I put them in reg water in qt for a few days of quiet and get them eating and a lil more energetic, then into display they go. If fish in qt shows signs of brook/velvet than I would probably give it some more time before trying to treat. Find prazi pretty tolerable/not much stress or side effects, as well as lowering salinity calming. Other than that would hesitate doing anything more drastic. While I know prazi isn’t going to cure brook/velvet it will help with any possible flukes and intestinal worms which should boost immunity. As well lowering salinity won’t do much more than lower stress a bit. This is what I have found to be most successful, for me anyway, in today’s highly infectious supply chain, and in a time when people pass around frags like a joints at a greatful dead concert.

 

[Humblefish]

Paul, a little vinegar will get those nitrates down. Its not a medication or anything, so it's OK to dose it.

 

[Paul B]

Humble, The nitrates have been zero and 160, I never noticed any difference either way.
Now they are probably what they are in the Long Island Sound as I have no test kits and don't want any, but my water is probably perfect for raising flounders and lobsters.
AS you know, my tank is just an experiment and not supposed to be a thing of beauty. For beauty I have pictures of my wife and Grand Kids hanging near the tank. Of course there is also a Supermodel picture in there also but the picture is from 1986 so that girl is probably a Grand Mother six times already but that is fine.

I have been scouting places for you to move in my neighborhood and I found you a nice place 100 yards from the water. The water here in the Sound is pre quarantined so you can put your fish right in. It is also mostly ice now so you won't need a chiller. You can come collecting with me any time you like, just bring an ice pick and maybe a sweater.

I hope to go collecting here next week if I can defrost my new knee enough to move. Maybe a little WD-40. This is a Man's collection place. Maybe I will swim out to that oil tanker to grease up the knee.



But I know, coming from Florida, you like these Girly Man tropical beaches.

 

[Neptune 555]

Short answer,
220 with 55 gal fuge, and 30 gallon sump.
Yes, they lived through ich, and lympho. Have huge hippo, big saifin, big purple, med pbt. Angels and many others.

A lil history.
always fed pretty well. Have increased fresh food in recent years.
Always qt and treated new arrivals and had many meds on hand for whatever came up. Got pretty good at fixing sick fish this way. About 7-8 years ago got ick in my 110 mixed reef and 72 gal Fowlr. After years of dif types of copper, hypo, tank transfer, ich just kept coming back. Just made me be more thorough. Even had qt in separate room with completely dif set of tools, nets, feeding cups etc. After 100 days of cupramine treatment, followed by 2 rounds of prazi, then a month of observation, with my 220 fallow the whole time put all fish back into display only to see ich return. Said that’s it. They will live or die but not going through that any more. Ich cleared up. Figured it would come back. Figured I only saw it clear because of their life cycle. But I only occasionally saw a dot or two every month or two till I saw it less frequently. Much less. A friend gave me a purple tang that had ick and a really bad case of lle. Put purple in qt, started treatment, he got much worse quickly. Came home one day and saw her at bottom of qt breathing heavy. She was dying. Said f this and put her straight into display. Figured she’d die and tank would be wrecked. Instead of ich spreading to other fish, the purple recovered. That was about 4 years ago. All fish still living.
I now put healthy fish straight into tank. After accumulating of course. If fish’s health is compromised I put them in reg water in qt for a few days of quiet and get them eating and a lil more energetic, then into display they go. If fish in qt shows signs of brook/velvet than I would probably give it some more time before trying to treat. Find prazi pretty tolerable/not much stress or side effects, as well as lowering salinity calming. Other than that would hesitate doing anything more drastic. While I know prazi isn’t going to cure brook/velvet it will help with any possible flukes and intestinal worms which should boost immunity. As well lowering salinity won’t do much more than lower stress a bit. This is what I have found to be most successful, for me anyway, in today’s highly infectious supply chain, and in a time when people pass around frags like a joints at a greatful dead concert.

Thanks for the detail. I am going to be combining my 48 allon bow front and my 75 gallon reef into a single 180 reef. I am nervous about ich... but have been moving away from my strict ich protocal b/c it was killing fish and exhausting me. I am on a similar path to you. I was QT with meds / then just putting in QT and observing (so I must have ich already) but have not had a flare up. As I move to my 180 I want to be sure I can handle this... AND I have been thinking of adding the mud and doing some sea water collecting. I just don't know how to cross the chasm. AND now I read about the UV Sterilizer and Ozone that Paul uses. do you do those enhancements also??

thanks! Neptune

 

[Neptune 555]

This will be very tough as most of Noobs tanks have so many problems not related to immunity that it will be hard to distinguish what is what.
I hesitate to give advice to Noobs and never tell them to give up quarantining even though I disagree with it. But I am not a noob and when I was, there was no one else so I did it the hard way.
A new tank with dry rock and sand will be a big problem with any method, I think we can all agree on that. This hobby is not that hard, but starting a new tank from scratch is. Especially when the person starting it is not aware what spots or behavior is normal or not.

I walk through a friends LFS and point out fish and say, That fish won't live the night and that one will be dead in 3 days. He hates when I do that but after 60 years of looking these things in the eye, you get a sense of their health.

I feel a new tank should have a good portion of the tank taken from an existing tank that is already set up just like we start cultures of things like worms and pods. I feel it could take 2 or 3 years for bacteria to settle down and do what they are supposed to do, maybe longer.

But I also feel that the fish we buy (from the sea) are already immune and all we have to do is cultivate that immunity that is dormant in stressed, underfed fish. Not add more stress. We want to get that fish out of a dealers tank as soon as possible but we also don't want to put it into another sterile, semi bare tank.
That, to me is just like quarantine and PVC pipes don't make fish happy as all new water is also detrimental to any sea creature.
All our fish come from reefs with a good amount of growth on them and not from sterile quarries. They like to hunt in those patches of growth and it makes them feel safer. They know when you add something artificial and don't trust it. Put a sunken chest in or a clean shell and they will avoid it for days until it has a growth on it. Even the feeder I invented won't attract any mandarins until it sits in there for a week or so.

I took this somewhere in the Caribbean last year. See the growth.


This is Key Largo in Florida.


And a remote Island off Hawaii. Notice the growth, or mulm



We have to stop cleaning off every bit of algae and detritus. Fish and more important the microscope creatures that help keep our tank healthy depend on this stuff. Most reefs are not pristine looking except in the South Pacific where there are so many corals that there is no room for mulm but numerous hiding places like here in Bora Bora.



Noob tanks almost always are to clean looking and are cleaned to much. I think a rock with some growth or even hair algae should be present in any new tank.
It's not just immunity that keeps a tank healthy and it's also not parameters. It is the stuff that fish are used to seeing and living in. My house is very clean and an ant wouldn't dare walk in here, but I am not a fish. We need to stop thinking of our tanks as a thing of beauty and think of them as a natural setting for the creatures we are trying to make comfortable. Just my opinion of course.

Guys pick me as a scientific experiment! I am not a noob - been keeping fish most of my life fresh then I have about 18 years experience with Saltwater. I don't try to keep perfectly clean tank b/c I only feed fish once a day so they need snacks : ). I am combining my 48 gallon reef (18 years old had a power failure last year so restarted with same rock/sand) and my 75 gallon reef 4 years old into a 180 gallon. Using all existing water / rock / fish.
I will QT fish in a 20 gallon tank w live rock to ensure they are eating b/4 they go into DT. I need advice with the following:
* Do I need UV Sterilizer? or Ozone?
* My fish were in QT some were TT but not at all. Given they might not have enough immunity what do I do?
* I try to feed live food and black worms. Barely use frozen
* Can I add mud I collect from the beach?
* How many inches of sand? I was thinking of transfering some sand over for biodiversity but adding otherwise new sand b/c my stuff is old and dirty? I was thinking 6 inches for a DSB.

I have tried the very clean QT protocal and find it exhausting.. I never have treated with meds tho just TT. The power went out in the 75 gallon for a day no hear no oxygen.. and my blue tang was upside down my yellow tang breathing on its side... I restored power and all but one fish lived. NO ICH? so maybe my tank really is ich free?

Happy for help! and happy to share the journey as someone ready to try this process and see if success can be attributed to following Paul B's other QT process.

Neptuen

 

[hotashes]

@Paul B
@Humblefish

If I decide to feed my fish from my white worm culture would it be an issue as my fish are not immune to parasite? I prophylactically run CP through them whilst I held them in QT tank from purchase prior to adding to DT.

My white worm culture is run on pre baked compost and fed yoghurt.

Thanks in advance

A.

 

[Neptune 555]

Earlier last year I was going through a rough time where I couldn't seem to get any new fish to live past 2-3 weeks. My new additions all seemed very healthy and for unknown reasons would suddenly go downhill within a few days. I was very much at the point of quitting. I asked for help and received alot of great advice on R2R . Everything from quarantining to going fallow. I had been fairly successful the year prior but went through several hurricanes. After the storms, the fresh food I had been feeding became more difficult to get and I was working crazy hours so pellets became more convenient for me to get. I realized that all my problems started after that point. I was finally able to get the fresh food to Include mussels ,shrimp, squid, octopus as well as fresh mahi roe. I started feeding strictly fresh with a little selcon added. At around the same time I added a uv filter as well as ozone. It's been months since I lost any fish. I added a filefish as well as a night sergeant. I had to rehome both of them because the filefish started eating my zoas and the sergeant got too big and was tormenting my wrasses. They are both doing well and the sergeant has become a celebrity at the local marine park! I plan on upgrading to my 120 in a few months and definitely plan on using those same methods. I believe that my turnaround was definitely linked to the change in food and would never go back to pellets as a sole food source.

would love to hear your progress w/ this method. Will you add fresh ocean mud or water to your tank?

thanks!
Neptune

 

[Paul B]

Neptune, if you will not be quarantining you can add mud from any clean beach. I personally do not like DSBs and think they are silly so I can't advise you on that, I also use gravel and no sand so I won't be any help with that either.


Neptune, whiteworms are land dwelling creatures and I don't think any parasites they may have would live in salt water.
I don't bake their soil, I just dig it up someplace.

 

[fishybizzness]

would love to hear your progress w/ this method. Will you add fresh ocean mud or water to your tank?

thanks!
Neptune

Still no losses. Recently added a bonded pair of banded coral shrimp and a Caribbean doctor fish. Shrimp were added to possibly control a few aptasia popping up and the surgeon to eat a little hair algae. It's been about 2 weeks and the doctor fish is fat like a pig and I definitely seem to be seeing less aptasia. Hope it continues.

 

[fishybizzness]

This is the beach where I get my water.