The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[robert]

Those who wish to duplicate Paul's Cryptocaryon management methodology;
Water was sourced for years from the cold New England ocean.
Live rock.
Ozone is used.
It is entirely possible that a Cryptocaryon predator/disease was introduced into the tank using natural seawater. Not sure why ozone has lost favor but using it would partially sterilize water entering the skimmer.
Good clean living does not explain why Cryptocaryon populations are kept in check. If the fish were truly immune Cryptocaryon would die out naturally.
The real issue is Amyloodinium. I'm skeptical there is a management methodology.
Parasites in a closed system tend to become unmanageable. Seems especially true of Eukaryotes.

Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium (Adrain Lawler) dies out naturally regardless of immune status of fish through senescence - the question I have is how is immunological memory maintained - cross immunity or possibly trained innate immunity?

 

[atoll]

I don't run ozone but I did 30 years ago instead I run Oxydator's. I don't run diatom filtration in fact I use no pre filtration at all unless you wish to call a skimmer pre filtration. I don't add mud but I do feed my own foods and add fish oils and I get similar results to Paul. The above I have been doing for 30 years and have no issues wuth disease even though I have never QTd. I have friends who practice similar with results. These are tried and tested methods over many years. I also believe the environment we create for our fish helps greatly with their wellbeing reducing stress.

 

[atoll]

Back in the day there was little or no quarantining of fish so over time we learnt to help combat outbreaks/prevent many of the diseases we often read today. This wasn't easy of course and it took time to develop "alternative" methods to prevent serious outbreaks of the likes of WS. Disease control rather than complete elimination and immunity rather than outright prevention is what we arrived at and practice. I and a few friends (many no longer with us) have been keeping my fish this way for over 30 years. I understand it's a controversial subject for many esp those who swear by QTing. I am not even suggesting our methods are right for everyone you have to be an oldtimer to replicate them anyway

 

[Paul B]

Water was sourced for years from the cold New England ocean.
Live rock.
Ozone is used.

I did start the tank in 1971 with real water because they didn't sell ASW. But for the majority of the tanks life, it was ASW with a small amount of NSW that I would collect in the summer. Maybe 15 gallons a year.
The Ozone has been offline for 5 months but I would like to connect it again. For water conditions, not parasites.

 

[Paul B]

Me and my friend Atoll have tanks running over 30 years with no quarantine. But it seems there are no old quarantined tanks.

 

[Humblefish]

But it seems there are no old quarantined tanks.

What do you mean? I have been quarantining for ~ 20 years now, and many of those fish lived 10-20 years. To be fair, my father (aka your twin brother) lived next door, never quarantined and had similar success. But I was always nervous when he would come over and want to put his hands in my tanks.

Unfortunately, Hurricane Katrina wiped out all of our tanks and my dad decided he had had enough expect for keeping freshwater.

 

[atoll]

Me and my friend Atoll have tanks running over 30 years with no quarantine. But it seems there are no old quarantined tanks.

I have read about people QTing for lengthy periods, tanks laying fallow for months and yet when fish have been reintroduced they have broken out in the likes of WS again. Some will say they didnt QT long enough and or didn't let the tank lay fallow for the required period or that disease was reintroduced in some other way. I am not sure what the truth of the matter is but it seems far from uncommon. I consider stress an important part of the reason fish get sick along with poor diet and environment which adds to their stress. I do believe my use of Oxydators have a beneficial action on my fish allowing them to breath more easily especially in the early days following introduction in a similar way ozone does. I do as much as is reasonably possible to create a similar environment the fish would find in nature back on the reef which gives them a sense of security, I hope. Most of my fish are as they would be found in nature in pairs or shoals etc again lessening stress. There is a whole package leading to success, disease free and longevity for my fish. I have lost fish but not from disease only carpet surfing but that was more or less negated by fitting a DIY net tank cover. Try as much as is reasonably possible to copy mother nature and you won't go far wrong after all she has had many millions of years to perefct her ways.

 

[Humblefish]

I have read about people QTing for lengthy periods, tanks laying fallow for months and yet when fish have been reintroduced they have broken out in the likes of WS again. Some will say they didnt QT long enough and or didn't let the tank lay fallow for the required period or that disease was reintroduced in some other way. I am not sure what the truth of the matter is but it seems far from uncommon.

This probably explains it in some cases: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617315892

 

[Mortie31]

This probably explains it in some cases: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0044848617315892

Interesting paper, so if any hypoxic areas are in our tanks, it may actually be impossible to remove crytocaryan from our systems...

 

[atoll]

Interesting paper, so if any hypoxic areas are in our tanks, it may actually be impossible to remove crytocaryan from our systems...

There is almost certainly areas in our aquariums be it in rock or sand that will be hypoxic I would suggest.

 

[Paul B]

What do you mean? I have been quarantining for ~ 20 years now, and many of those fish lived 10-20 years.

Yes, but you are a Fish God so it doesn't count.

 

[Thales]

This whole line of reasoning about QT stems from trying to give reef keepers recipes to keep their animals alive, and, though we have to keep trying, such things are prone to failure because they lack nuance.
A recipe for QT is a replacement for experience with QT and animal selection, and it's a chancy replacement. There are situations where a sterile QT is the right move, there are situations where established QT is the right move, there are situations where a combination makes sense, there are situations were prophylactic treatment makes sense, there are situations where simple observation is the best first move with doing more or not is based on that observation, and there are situations where skipping QT is the right move.
Reef recipes are not replacements for understanding.

 

[atoll]

What is universally peddled across the board is you must QT even some who don't will even tell you so. They will also tell.you you are playing with the lives of your animals and even that you should medicate the QT tank. Failure to do so will bring disaster and plague. 30 plus years on am still waiting. Actually I am pretty confident I have indeed brought in diseases with new introductions they just never take a real hold on the tank. I have had fish scratch on the sand and rock and have seen what was almost certainly WS on the likes of Royal grammas not that I would go out of my way to purchase fish I knew were infected.
However within 36 hours or so the spots have disappeared and the scratching ceased.
I always study any new potential purchase for at least 20 mins to ensure it at least looks and is acting normally as much as I understand the fishes normal actions in a small LFSs tank to be.

 

[Matthew Frost]

First, I would like to thank @PaulB for sharing his experience.

This is an ideological debate that like religion or politics their will never be a "right answer" just the one the is right for you.

What I would like to talk about and maybe Paul has shared this and I have missed it, but I read several times through this thread that the animals in Paul's tanks are regularly breeding/reproducing. I find this particularly interesting and am more not sure why more people aren't captivated by it. Paul says he never quarantined/quarantines and he regularly adds and removes animals from his system. Sick/stressed/diseased animals DON'T BREED/PRODUCE OFFSPRING. It takes too much energy. If Paul has animals in his system that are regularly reproducing or trying to we should all be bending an ear his way because he is doing something right. Reproductive animals are healthy and happy and that means something is being done correctly.

Just my .02, condensed.

 

[atoll]

First, I would like to thank @PaulB for sharing his experience.

This is an ideological debate that like religion or politics their will never be a "right answer" just the one the is right for you.

What I would like to talk about and maybe Paul has shared this and I have missed it, but I read several times through this thread that the animals in Paul's tanks are regularly breeding/reproducing. I find this particularly interesting and am more not sure why more people aren't captivated by it. Paul says he never quarantined/quarantines and he regularly adds and removes animals from his system. Sick/stressed/diseased animals DON'T BREED/PRODUCE OFFSPRING. It takes too much energy. If Paul has animals in his system that are regularly reproducing or trying to we should all be bending an ear his way because he is doing something right. Reproductive animals are healthy and happy and that means something is being done correctly.

Just my .02, condensed.

Fish spawning in tanks should be a regular occurrence not a rarity providing of course you keep them right and have them in pairs, trios, shaols or whatever. I regular have dwarf angels, damsels, grammas, gobbies, dragonets, clowns, cardinals etc spawn, in fact try to stop them. You create the environment correct conditions and feed them well and many will spawn for you. Mostly a case of when than if IME and that of my friend's.

 

[Thales]

What is universally peddled across the board is you must QT even some who don't will even tell you so. They will also tell.you you are playing with the lives of your animals and even that you should medicate the QT tank. Failure to do so will bring disaster and plague.

That is only true depending on the board - there are places where more nuance is discussed, it often gets pushed down the page by the more 'popular' topics. What happens is there are so many people asking for advice, that need time to builds skills and understanding, that are looking for quick answers, that it becomes exhausting to try to help in any way but to give recipes. We have to learn, about everything, that the most popular, the loudest, and the most discussed things in the longest threads aren't necessarily true or useful.
Asking a new keeper to set up a sterile qt system is asking for problems IMO.

 

[Hot2na]

Copper/formalin...Paul ? 1970's ? Then you must remember the old "AQUA CURE" by poly bio marine...It was the go to med in the late 70's...They stopped producing due to issues with mixing the formalin - but man was it effective !! I watched a wholesaler (E-mark tropical imports) walk around and dump a capful in his holding tanks whenever a fish would scratch or have white spots...You come back in 5 mins and could see the parasites dropping off the fish ...Aquacure, necktonics undergravels...and wait power plus 600 outside filter...Halvin HOB air driven filters...THOSE were the days....and I know you know what i'm talking about..

 

[Thales]

First, I would like to thank @PaulB for sharing his experience.

This is an ideological debate that like religion or politics their will never be a "right answer" just the one the is right for you.

What I would like to talk about and maybe Paul has shared this and I have missed it, but I read several times through this thread that the animals in Paul's tanks are regularly breeding/reproducing. I find this particularly interesting and am more not sure why more people aren't captivated by it. Paul says he never quarantined/quarantines and he regularly adds and removes animals from his system. Sick/stressed/diseased animals DON'T BREED/PRODUCE OFFSPRING. It takes too much energy. If Paul has animals in his system that are regularly reproducing or trying to we should all be bending an ear his way because he is doing something right. Reproductive animals are healthy and happy and that means something is being done correctly.

Just my .02, condensed.

Lots and lots of people have animals breeding in their systems that don't do think like the OP does. I think the best advice I have ever given/heard about taking advice on reef discussion groups has been "Look at the tanks of the person giving the advice, and then decide if you want a tank like that. If you do, listen to them more carefully".

 

[atoll]

Lots and lots of people have animals breeding in their systems that don't do think like the OP does. I think the best advice I have ever given/heard about taking advice on reef discussion groups has been "Look at the tanks of the person giving the advice, and then decide if you want a tank like that. If you do, listen to them more carefully".

Many don't show their tanks and hide behind their avitar name. I have done many posts were disbelievers have said well let's see your tank. When posted pic's and even vids FTS and close ups few come back fir some reason while now and again I would get a compliment. However there is more to truth than a pic or video but it's what is asked for as proof.

 

[Thales]

However there is more to truth than a pic or video but it's what is asked for as proof.

I don’t know about proof - I think the word evidence is more useful.
A pic or a vid won’t tell you everything - but it is a decent basic measure - if you want a tank like in the pic or video, listen to what the person running the tank says.