The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[CindyKz]

quar·an·tine
[ˈkwôrənˌtēn]
NOUN
1. a state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals that have arrived from elsewhere or been exposed to infectious or contagious disease are placed.

I'm glad this was pointed out, because "quarantine" and "prophylactic treatment" are different but I feel many reefers use the term "quarantine" to include both. This muddies the waters sometimes.

^^ This is an excellent point. Not every choice needs to be so extreme. There is always a middle ground. For those who do not like prophylactically using medication on fish and feel the "stress" of a bare bottom QT will kill a fish ..... Why not setup a miniature version of your DT and observe new fish in there?? If the fish looks healthy after 30 days, add him to your DT. If a disease pops up, have a small 10 gal hospital tank on standby to treat. (You can store it in your garage.) Bottom line is you are protecting the fish inhabitants of your DT from infectious diseases. View attachment 934201

This is exactly what I do, and I've had much more success with my 20 gal "permanent" QT than I did with so called "sterile" tanks and prophylactic treatment.

That having been said....

It would be wise for others considering QT /no QT to realize, that years of experience and success cannot be overlooked.

I believe @keithdoc was referring to years of reefing experience in general. I'd like to point out that, like anything else in life, successfully using potent medications in quarantine requires experience and expertise that you can't get from a website. Folks like @Humblefish have years, if not decades, of experience and can medicate and cure sick fish as a matter of course. People like me, with 2 1/2 years reefing experience, might kill lots of fish that way. (And believe me, I have).

To make an analogy, would I give one my junior nursing students a cardiac medication and a sick patient and say "Oh hey! You looked it up in the drug reference book, you're good. Nurse on". Of course not. Why would anyone expect a brand new reefer with zero experience to use fish medications any more safely or effectively?

There are many aspects to reefing experience. The value of expertise in competently treating sick (or healthy) fish is overlooked in this thread.

ETA: @Paul B, I hope your knee feels better. Sincerely, this VA RN.

 

[2CC's]

Great thread @PaulB, thank you for taking the time to share your wealth of experience. And to the other frequent contributors who wade in respectfully with counter opinions. I learn a lot from these types of discussions and I have so much to learn as i find my way in this wonderful hobby .

 

[Brian Kennedy]

I would gladly volunteer to be a test dummy for a new tank build guided by the combined expertise in this thread.

I've been in the hobby since May and have already killed way too many fish. Some my fault, some due to harassment, some due to reasons beyond my current level of knowledge.

Current residents in a 72 gallon bow front include three green chromis, pair of oscillaris clowns, powder brown tang, pintail fairy wrasse and starry blenny have been in the tank for 7, 6, 4, 3, 2 months respectively. These fish all survived two big ich outbreaks, the presence of internal parasites, bacterial infection and I think velvet.

I felt that I have made so many mistakes that the only solution was to start over. Until this thread I was dead set on @HotRocks qt method to transfer everyone into a new tank.

I'm almost done gathering all the parts and pieces to upgrade to a 5 foot 120 gallon that I'll pick up this weekend. I've already got the power heads, return, 100# of reef saver dry rock, caribsea special grade dry sand, sump, rodi, ato and brs kalkeasser.

I have a few pieces of nice live rock, Marine pure blocks and chaeto in the sump, but I was afraid that using anything from the old tank will most certainly result in death!

The plan was to do the BRS/WWC long cycle on a completely sterile system and QT everyone in parallel. Now I'm not so sure that's the best route.

@Paul B @HotRocks @Humblefish @4FordFamily I respectfully ask, how would each of you proceed and why do you think your method would would result in the best long term results? I would like to add more fish and some coral down the road, but I know it's a marathon, not a sprint. I'm happy to elaborate on and share anything I've done to date and more eager to succeed.

 

[4FordFamily]

I would gladly volunteer to be a test dummy for a new tank build guided by the combined expertise in this thread.

I've been in the hobby since May and have already killed way too many fish. Some my fault, some due to harassment, some due to reasons beyond my current level of knowledge.

Current residents in a 72 gallon bow front include three green chromis, pair of oscillaris clowns, powder brown tang, pintail fairy wrasse and starry blenny have been in the tank for 7, 6, 4, 3, 2 months respectively. These fish all survived two big ich outbreaks, the presence of internal parasites, bacterial infection and I think velvet.

I felt that I have made so many mistakes that the only solution was to start over. Until this thread I was dead set on @HotRocks qt method to transfer everyone into a new tank.

I'm almost done gathering all the parts and pieces to upgrade to a 5 foot 120 gallon that I'll pick up this weekend. I've already got the power heads, return, 100# of reef saver dry rock, caribsea special grade dry sand, sump, rodi, ato and brs kalkeasser.

I have a few pieces of nice live rock, Marine pure blocks and chaeto in the sump, but I was afraid that using anything from the old tank will most certainly result in death!

The plan was to do the BRS/WWC long cycle on a completely sterile system and QT everyone in parallel. Now I'm not so sure that's the best route.

@Paul B @HotRocks @Humblefish @4FordFamily I respectfully ask, how would each of you proceed and why do you think your method would would result in the best long term results? I would like to add more fish and some coral down the road, but I know it's a marathon, not a sprint. I'm happy to elaborate on and share anything I've done to date and more eager to succeed.

I think the easiest way to help suggest is to follow my build thread, very recent. Will be full of hard to keep, disease-prone fish. Batch one of 4 went in today

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/4...eaturing-hotrocks.473870/page-21#post-5542720

 

[Brian Kennedy]

I think the easiest way to help suggest is to follow my build thread, very recent. Will be full of hard to keep, disease-prone fish. Batch one of 4 went in today

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/4...eaturing-hotrocks.473870/page-21#post-5542720

I will follow, thanks.

 

[fishyfishyfishy]

Question: If the fish are not infected and immune to the parasites how do the parasites stay alive? If to keep the fish immune we need a thriving population of parasites how do the parasites stay alive if they are not feeding on the fish? Do the also feed on other things? I don’t know much about parasites I have only had a couple fish get ich but I just let them ride it out seems to work well. I do feed frozen foods no flake or pellets and refuse to use chemicals. I’m about to start dosing neonitro and neophos.

 

[theMeat]

Question: If the fish are not infected and immune to the parasites how do the parasites stay alive? If to keep the fish immune we need a thriving population of parasites how do the parasites stay alive if they are not feeding on the fish? Do the also feed on other things? I don’t know much about parasites I have only had a couple fish get ich but I just let them ride it out seems to work well. I do feed frozen foods no flake or pellets and refuse to use chemicals. I’m about to start dosing neonitro and neophos.

Parasites need blood. So inverts are out but fish are on the menu. Some fish are more susceptible to certain things. The parasites feed on the fish but not to the point of a wipe out. Unless too much stress, or poor diet. When I go on vaca I have fish on auto feeder with pellets. Usually see some white dots when I return. Feed some fresh and frozen again and within a few weeks everything is back to normal. Or maybe it’s because they’re stressed because they missed me, idk

 

[Tamberav]

^^ This is an excellent point. Not every choice needs to be so extreme. There is always a middle ground. For those who do not like prophylactically using medication on fish and feel the "stress" of a bare bottom QT will kill a fish ..... Why not setup a miniature version of your DT and observe new fish in there?? If the fish looks healthy after 30 days, add him to your DT. If a disease pops up, have a small 10 gal hospital tank on standby to treat. (You can store it in your garage.) Bottom line is you are protecting the fish inhabitants of your DT from infectious diseases. View attachment 934201

This is exactly what I do and I really love this method. A tank with live rock and macroalgae for conditioning and hospital tanks on standby. The only thing I treat every fish with is prazipro and only for 24 hours 7 days apart.

I have never had Brook or velvet enter my DT that I am aware of. I can't claim to have a 40 year old tank...I'm not that old.. I can't even claim to have a 5 year old tank because I move around a lot for school and sell my livestock off and start over. I have been in this hobby about 10 years and never had the velvet or Brook wipe out experience.

I never feed dry unless on vacation. My fish are fed frozen (LRS with selcon) and occasional live hatched baby brine and live black worms. New arrivals that are picky eaters get live first and weaned onto frozen. Bacteria in food never occurred to me. I just fed what seemed healthiest and easy to source. I do the same for my cats. They don't eat dry food as a main source either.

But I feel for the most part my tanks have been successful as long as I have been in this hobby. I have been able to keep most new arrivals alive in lower stress while..so far...never dealing with Brook or velvet in the DT.

I do keep nanos and pick fish accordingly.... No tangs...no sand sifters... The only time I kept dragonets I built a tank for their specific needs with pods coming out my ears....ect

I don't follow any sort of method but I guess it is somewhere btw both QT and Paul's. I just made it up as I go with what seemed to work best for me.

 

[Mortie31]

This is exactly what I do and I really love this method. A tank with live rock and macroalgae for conditioning and hospital tanks on standby. The only thing I treat every fish with is prazipro and only for 24 hours 7 days apart.

I have never had Brook or velvet enter my DT that I am aware of. I can't claim to have a 40 year old tank...I'm not that old.. I can't even claim to have a 5 year old tank because I move around a lot for school and sell my livestock off and start over. I have been in this hobby about 10 years and never had the velvet or Brook wipe out experience.

I never feed dry unless on vacation. My fish are fed frozen (LRS with selcon) and occasional live hatched baby brine and live black worms. New arrivals that are picky eaters get live first and weaned onto frozen. Bacteria in food never occurred to me. I just fed what seemed healthiest and easy to source. I do the same for my cats. They don't eat dry food as a main source either.

But I feel for the most part my tanks have been successful as long as I have been in this hobby. I have been able to keep most new arrivals alive in lower stress while..so far...never dealing with Brook or velvet in the DT.

I do keep nanos and pick fish accordingly.... No tangs...no sand sifters... The only time I kept dragonets I built a tank for their specific needs with pods coming out my ears....ect

I don't follow any sort of method but I guess it is somewhere btw both QT and Paul's. I just made it up as I go with what seemed to work best for me.

I think this sounds like a good half way house to observe new arrivals in a more “natural” tank, my only question is, what happens if a fish does develop ICK, you catch and move to a hospital tank and treat, then what do you then do with the landscaped observation tank? I assume you leave it fallow for 72 days to ensure no possible transmission to new arrivals?

 

[Tamberav]

I think this sounds like a good half way house to observe new arrivals in a more “natural” tank, my only question is, what happens if a fish does develop ICK, you catch and move to a hospital tank and treat, then what do you then do with the landscaped observation tank? I assume you leave it fallow for 72 days to ensure no possible transmission to new arrivals?

I used CP with the live rock successfully but have also removed the fish and did TTM.

Yes I let it go fallow. It isn't a bad idea to space out additions anyways. Letting a QT in the basement go fallow isn't painful like watching an empty DT.

 

[Mortie31]

I used CP with the live rock successfully but have also removed the fish and did TTM.

Yes I let it go fallow. It isn't a bad idea to space out additions anyways. Letting a QT in the basement go fallow isn't painful like watching an empty DT.

How are residual levels of CP in the tank? How did you get it out of the rockwork and sand? I agree it’s not to bad to leave an observation tank fallow but it means more tanks and space, which not everyone has.

 

[CindyKz]

I think this sounds like a good half way house to observe new arrivals in a more “natural” tank, my only question is, what happens if a fish does develop ICK, you catch and move to a hospital tank and treat, then what do you then do with the landscaped observation tank? I assume you leave it fallow for 72 days to ensure no possible transmission to new arrivals?

That's how I handled the only death I've had in that tank. I just refrained from buying new fish during the fallow period.

 

[Bradley Keck]

I don't know, whats a TKE? If it's the knee, about 3 weeks.



Sorry, TKA is total knee arthroplasty. Three weeks is still early enough that pain can be fairly persistent. Make sure you are getting it all the way straight right now and getting your quad to fire. Bending is important as well, but full bending will come with time. Bending can be slowed by swelling and healing of the incision. Getting that thing straight however needs to be done first 7-10 days post-op. No limp with walking. Whether that means a rolling walker, cane, etc. Make sure you master a normal gait pattern first whether it takes using a device or not. Too many people try to get off a walker too soon and suffer from all kinds of biomechanical problems related to improper gait pattern. You had your two week f/u I assume? Everything looked OK from an infection standpoint? Sorry it's off topic, but it's what I do for a living. Assuming there is no infection, alignment is good, your body is not rejecting the metal(rare), and the components are secure, it just takes time. Right now is the most pain you will be in with that sucker and it will gradually improve, IF you make sure to get full range of motion and train to walk normal without a limp. Hang in there and let me know if you have any questions about your recovery from it.

 

[burning2nd]

been talking to paul for about 20 years now almost,

see you still got the beer bottle, You lost the can though?
paul showed me the light, how not to water change, how to make it a natural environment that is basically self sufficient

my build i just did had a lot of the ideas that me and paul talked about on some of the other forums,

It was either said to me.. or i said it but, do as paul says not as paul does.... Its something that will help you down the road

 

[Paul B]

I respectfully ask, how would each of you proceed and why do you think your method would would result in the best long term results?

Brian, in an established tank like yours that already had ich I would do as you are doing but maybe add a diatom filter and run it a few hours a day.
That should severely reduce the numbers of parasites until your existing fish and new fish you want to add are all immune. Already being infected is a good thing but I am not sure your tank is in a state of health yet so you can start adding new fish, hence the diatom filter. It will remove free swimming parasites but leave enough to help with the immune process. When your fish are very healthy by eating the correct food, you will not need the filter.

If I wanted to cure a tank of parasites, I would run a diatom filter along with the medication.

Question: If the fish are not infected and immune to the parasites how do the parasites stay alive? If to keep the fish immune we need a thriving population of parasites how do the parasites stay alive if they are not feeding on the fish? Do the also feed on other things?

This is easy. Although fish are immune some parasites still can get through the defenses to get a bite of blood. My copperband has spots on his tail which I can see are dead parasites. The slime kills parasites but not instantly just like insect killer doesn't kill insects instantly. Some parasites are just "slimed" off the fish and live to reproduce. If a fish in my tank is near death from either an injury, jumping out (and I throw it back) or old age, it may become covered in parasites so I know they are there and I want them there. I also added 6 or 7 fish in the time since I moved here 5 months ago from a LFS that has ich in many of their tanks.

Remember common sense. Fish were invented to live with parasites. They have been encountering and eating parasites since the day they were born and they are perfectly capable to handle them. Parasites are needed to keep the fish healthy and immune Hence the reason no one has posted any old quarantined fish.

All healthy fish have an intact immune system, they fill with eggs and never get sick, like never, not once, Nada,





A bunch of octopus that hatched in a spare tank

 

[Tamberav]

How are residual levels of CP in the tank? How did you get it out of the rockwork and sand? I agree it’s not to bad to leave an observation tank fallow but it means more tanks and space, which not everyone has.

I did a big water change and ran some carbon and opened the drapes to hit it with some sun. Reused that rock for my reef tank later on..no problems. I had a hitchiker hermit in there who went dorment during CP but once removed he came back to life...biz as usual.

CP kills algae so once you remove the CP you will see algae return and that's a good indicator.

Yes space. I still had a QT tank when I lived in a studio apt. It's just how badly a person wants one vs whatever other furniture they have or how Feng shui their bedroom needs to be :d

 

[robert]

Immunity is a complex, convoluted subject with many subtleties and open questions.

Paul offers anecdotal observations and potential explanations for why he believes his method works but this isn't evidence. Now if Paul could take some fish, raised in accordance with his method and demonstrate a significant difference in survival rates when compared to fish raised in a quarantine environment that would be. It would also be a substantial undertaking on his part.

I personally suspect that he is correct and that there would be a significant difference in survival rates and for pretty much the reasons he claims. It could only be a small difference in survival rate and still be significant which would be of little applicable value - or it could be ad large as he infers which could be revolutionary - or it could lie somewhere in-between.

Paul - hope you feel better.

Here's an article you may find interesting.
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Microbiota_and_the_Teleost_Immune_System.pdf

 

[Sea MunnKey]

That was mysis, cyclopese and some LRS food. I just threw some food in there so the fish would wake up and come out for the video. The cyclopese is for the bluestripes and Queen anthius which go nuts for the stuff. Bluestripes are all over the place and don't seem to have a favorite spot.
They are some of my favorite fish

This was the MAIN reason why I went out my way & kept bugging my lfs to get me the African Blue Striped pipefish. 3 came in the shipment and I managed to grab 2 of them (I think they're both males & still alive). Someone came early & grabbed the first one which could've been a female?
I've for 2 separate rocks formation and to each their own homes . Trying out ESV Dried Marine phytoplankton until I get my lazy butt to start to cultivate & harvest the brine shrimp farm

 

[fishyfishyfishy]

@Paul B Thank you for explaining, awesome thread by the way. It brought a more in-depth understanding of this symbiotic relationship and how it works. I never really put a lot of thought or research into this but what you explain seems accurate to me.

 

[AcanthurusRex]

Those who wish to duplicate Paul's Cryptocaryon management methodology;
Water was sourced for years from the cold New England ocean.
Live rock.
Ozone is used.
It is entirely possible that a Cryptocaryon predator/disease was introduced into the tank using natural seawater. Not sure why ozone has lost favor but using it would partially sterilize water entering the skimmer.
Good clean living does not explain why Cryptocaryon populations are kept in check. If the fish were truly immune Cryptocaryon would die out naturally.
The real issue is Amyloodinium. I'm skeptical there is a management methodology.
Parasites in a closed system tend to become unmanageable. Seems especially true of Eukaryotes.