The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[atoll]

I don’t know about proof - I think the word evidence is more useful.
A pic or a vid won’t tell you everything - but it is a decent basic measure - if you want a tank like in the pic or video, listen to what the person running the tank says.

Evidence supporting the truth. [emoji6]

 

[miyags]

(no Quarantine)Thats how most people on here do it.Then they start crying and post all their 100$ fish are dying.

 

[atoll]

(no Quarantine)Thats how most people on here do it.Then they start crying and post all their 100$ fish are dying.

Because they do it wrong from the start not simply because they didn't QT. They often buy the wrong fish throw them in and expect near instant results. QTing will guarantee you little if anything in many cases. A tank takes a year to mature properly perhaps more.

 

[Paul B]

.and wait power plus 600 outside filter.

Coincidently I just put my Christmas decorations away today and the tree lights go into my Power Plus 600 box that I kept. I don't know where the filter is, but I still use the box which is falling apart. Of course I remember Aqua Cure. I was there at the beginning of the hobby so I have seen all of the "innovations" .

I post a lot of pictures of my tank but it was never meant to be a thing of beauty, but an experiment. I do things to my tank that people probably should not do and my tank could be better looking but it is just for me to look at which is why it is not in my house, but in my workshop/Mancave. Very few people see it.
I don't want it to be on a magazine cover although it has been in magazines and Tank of the Month many times on many forums. That is not my goal. My goal, and I think I have achieved it , is to have fish never die from disease and always spawn. I have published my watchman gobies spawning, clown gobies, bluestripe pipefish, bangai cardinals, fireclowns, seahorses, cardinals and many others. Unfortunately I don't have much more to achieve in this hobby as those are my goals.
I try to teach my methods which is why I wrote a book. The Book sells well but I don't even make enough to buy clams from the profits that almost all go to the publisher and printer. Many people either don't believe me or think my way is to hard. I really feel I do way less maintenance than almost anyone on here. I rarely dose or change water, I have no controllers or test kits. All I think I do is feed well, or what I consider feeding well.
I buy a fish, acclimate it for a few minutes and throw it in. Then I get bored of it because they live forever. I feel disease threads are silly and I almost never go on them for that reason. There is so much time wasted on curing fish and almost no time spent keeping them healthy.

It is just a natural system with very little bells and whistles. If anyone lives on Long Island you are welcome to come here and see my tank or maybe come collecting. Since I moved out here 5 months ago I haven't found a collection place yet but I am still looking.
I used to collect codium seaweed and put it in the tank. This was probably 25 years ago but I think the tank looked very natural then. I still have that fireclown on the left.

 

[Humblefish]

Interesting paper, so if any hypoxic areas are in our tanks, it may actually be impossible to remove crytocaryan from our systems...

I would suggest blowing out your rocks with a powerhead and vacuuming the sand during water changes whilst going fallow. As a preventative, it would be helpful to use just a light layer of sand, never have sand out of reach (i.e. under a rock), and only use very porous rock just in case you ever have to go fallow. That strategy should eliminate most anaerobic/hypoxic regions of an aquarium.

Yes, but you are a Fish God so it doesn't count.

I could say the same of you, old friend. ;Smuggrin

What is universally peddled across the board is you must QT even some who don't will even tell you so.

I would just like to point out that I am one of the biggest advocates of QT on this board, and yet I am also the one who strongly encouraged @Paul B to start this thread. So the dissenting POV would have a voice.

 

[robert]

@Humblefish - Nice citation. Definitely bears consideration for those considering or pursuing fallow periods for parasite eradication.

@atoll - very nice tank. Paul doesn't keep tangs - do you?

@Thales - if I could like your last post twice - I would.

The georgia aquarium produced a write up on the design and implementation of the largest mixed reef display tank in the world (at least at the time of writing). http://www.academia.edu/18831835/Ch...d-system_reef_exhibit_at_the_Georgia_Aquarium

They utilized a 45 days minimum quarantine for observation. They don't say whether they prophylacticly treated the 1500 or so fish they introduced - but many were tangs. Within a month they had ick and a spike in the mortality rate. With so many fish and such a huge volume - they rode it out and "Eventually, the outbreak subsided and there has been no signifcant recurrence. Most of the original fish population recovered and eventually more fish were added over the subsequent months. Since that time, the condition of the fish population has been excellent with the fish showing good coloration, as spawning has been observed for Pseudanthias squamipinnis and Chromis viridis"

I point this out only to show that there are practical limits to quarantine and fallow periods; (I'm not saying that they're wrong approaches.) My other reason for this citation is to question the existence of Paul's sought after "old quarantined tanks" as at scale, their sterility would be impossible to provably maintain for any length of time.

Although I don't quarantine, a setup like mine utilizing DE/UV, without NSW introductions, and utilizing good quality commercial "sterile pellet feed", would probably be a more suitable comparison. I do keep a large variety of tangs including the ick magnet Acanthurus varieties without mortalities. While my current setup is ~5 years old - many of my tangs are much older having moved with me several times. I, like Paul, use a form of UGF, and I deliberately minimize hypoxic zones in the display and sump, keeping an isolated hypoxic sulphur reactor for denitrification. I'm confident that my fish are healthy and will live considerably longer.

If you read the article whose link I posted above with respect to the microbiome of teleosts (fish), the comparison should IMHO be between a more sterile approach and Paul's and atoll's more diverse approach. One thing that seems to jump out at me is that my fish will contract ich/velvet if re-exposed while Paul says no and Atoll says yes - but it doesn't matter as his fish recover anyway.

Based on the substantial research of others, without reintroduction, I would expect ich to self-extinguish through senescence even in the presence of non-exposed hosts. I would expect it to extinguish even faster in the presence of immune fish which since they were exposed, mine were (and now are again). That's exactly what I see in my tank and that's why I'm always ready to crank up the flow on my mechanical filtration when introducing new fish. I don't see being prepared for an outbreak as being lazy which leads me to feel comfortable skipping quarantine most if not all the time.

What has me intrigued is that Paul claims his fish are 100% immune but other than his CBB he really doesn't keep fish which are as notorious for ich as I do. I'm interested in Atoll's stocking practices to see if he keeps tangs as that might explain the difference in experiences. Absent that - there must be something quite ubiquitous in the NSW on both sides of the Atlantic which explains Atoll's and Paul's observations.

 

[atoll]

@Humblefish - Nice citation. Definitely bears consideration for those considering or pursuing fallow periods for parasite eradication.

@atoll - very nice tank. Paul doesn't keep tangs - do you?

@Thales - if I could like your last post twice - I would.

The georgia aquarium produced a write up on the design and implementation of the largest mixed reef display tank in the world (at least at the time of writing). http://www.academia.edu/18831835/Ch...d-system_reef_exhibit_at_the_Georgia_Aquarium

They utilized a 45 days minimum quarantine for observation. They don't say whether they prophylacticly treated the 1500 or so fish they introduced - but many were tangs. Within a month they had ick and a spike in the mortality rate. With so many fish and such a huge volume - they rode it out and "Eventually, the outbreak subsided and there has been no signifcant recurrence. Most of the original fish population recovered and eventually more fish were added over the subsequent months. Since that time, the condition of the fish population has been excellent with the fish showing good coloration, as spawning has been observed for Pseudanthias squamipinnis and Chromis viridis"

I point this out only to show that there are practical limits to quarantine and fallow periods; (I'm not saying that they're wrong approaches.) My other reason for this citation is to question the existence of Paul's sought after "old quarantined tanks" as at scale, their sterility would be impossible to provably maintain for any length of time.

Although I don't quarantine, a setup like mine utilizing DE/UV, without NSW introductions, and utilizing good quality commercial "sterile pellet feed", would probably be a more suitable comparison. I do keep a large variety of tangs including the ick magnet Acanthurus varieties without mortalities. While my current setup is ~5 years old - many of my tangs are much older having moved with me several times. I, like Paul use a form of UGF, and I deliberately minimize hypoxic zones in the display and sump, keeping an isolated hypoxic sulphur reactor for denitrification. I'm confident that my fish are healthy and will live considerably longer.

If you read the article whose link I posted above with respect to the microbiome of teleosts (fish), the comparison should IMHO be between a more sterile approach and Paul's and atoll's more diverse approach. One thing that seems to jump out at me is that my fish will contract ich/velvet if re-exposed while Paul says no and Atoll says yes - but it doesn't matter as his fish recover anyway.

Based on the substantial research of others, without reintroduction, I would expect ich to self-extinguish through senescence even in the presence of non-exposed hosts. I would expect it to extinguish even faster in the presence of immune fish which since they were exposed, mine were (and now are again). That's exactly what I see in my tank and that's why I'm always ready to crank up the flow on my mechanical filtration when introducing new fish. I don't see being prepared for an outbreak as being lazy which leads me to feel comfortable skipping quarantine most if not all the time.

What has me intrigued is that Paul claims his fish are 100% immune but other than his CBB he really doesn't keep fish which are as notorious for ich as I do. I'm interested in Atoll's stocking practices to see if he keeps tangs as that might explain the difference in experiences. Absent that - there must be something quite ubiquitous in the NSW on both sides of the Atlantic which explains Atoll's and Paul's observations.

Firstly I have only ever seen spots on new fish which came to light within hours after introduction. My established fish showed no signs of any following. All spots on the new introductios gone within36 hours but I guess they or the spores are still in the tank.
I have kept a number of tangs inc Yellow. Purple and the like. But they aren't my thing and get to big so I sold them on afterba year or 2. I have never tried the likes of a powder blue as again they do little for me and get way too big. Tangs also tend to roam the reef and at some distance from it and I can't provide that kind of swimming space which I believe would be stressful for them as they get bigger. I like to keep mainly small fish that tend to not stray far from my reef scape. I have however kept a regal angel and multibar angel very successfully. I sold both on. My multibar started to eat my acans and the regal also got too big for what I want. I have videos of them on my YouTube along with my tank but I get bored with making them but there are plenty on there and of other tanks I have kept over the years.

 

[User1]

Many don't show their tanks and hide behind their avitar name. I have done many posts were disbelievers have said well let's see your tank. When posted pic's and even vids FTS and close ups few come back fir some reason while now and again I would get a compliment. However there is more to truth than a pic or video but it's what is asked for as proof.

A software / game developer years ago was going to use the player/subscribers real name for their avatar / in-game name. The idea was to try and reduce cyber bullying. There was a pretty huge uproar over that from what I recall and the designer backed down. Too bad, I think that should be the case for any and all boards and social media but that is another topic and debate.

 

[Scott Campbell]

This whole line of reasoning about QT stems from trying to give reef keepers recipes to keep their animals alive, and, though we have to keep trying, such things are prone to failure because they lack nuance.
A recipe for QT is a replacement for experience with QT and animal selection, and it's a chancy replacement. There are situations where a sterile QT is the right move, there are situations where established QT is the right move, there are situations where a combination makes sense, there are situations were prophylactic treatment makes sense, there are situations where simple observation is the best first move with doing more or not is based on that observation, and there are situations where skipping QT is the right move.
Reef recipes are not replacements for understanding.

All of this and more. Setting up a stable, safe and appropriate QT is always going to be a challenge. So much so that it is probably always safer and better for any new aquisition, no matter how sick, to be placed directly in the main tank. But not always safer and better for all the current tank inhabitants. So you have to weigh the health and value of new fish against the health and value of your existing fish. If my tank has one existing $30 fish and I'm adding a new $500 fish - I will skip QT without question. But it is rarely that straightforward.

Paul and Atoll are suggesting that it is always better to skip QT. And to a point I would agree. As a father I wanted my boys to go outside and be exposed to "normal" bugs, bacteria and such. But I would not knowingly or willingly put my boys in contact with someone carrying the plague. Immune systems benefit from exposure to pathogens, bacteria and disease up until a point. And that point can and often involves death. I doubt Paul would be willing to purposefully add velvet or brooklynella to his tank. That would certainly be a bold way to prove his hypothesis.

For reasons stated in an earlier post I have never quarantined any fish. But it seems like a valuable tool for many, many situations.

 

[atoll]

A software / game developer years ago was going to use the player/subscribers real name for their avatar / in-game name. The idea was to try and reduce cyber bullying. There was a pretty huge uproar over that from what I recall and the designer backed down. Too bad, I think that should be the case for any and all boards and social media but that is another topic and debate.

I use my real name on a number of forums both .coms and FB I have my own FB group 2 in fact and use my real name. Sometimes you want to use a different name so the hatters don't follow you even if some do in fact twig who you are which isn't so difficult if you think about it.

 

[Mortie31]

There is almost certainly areas in our aquariums be it in rock or sand that will be hypoxic I would suggest.

Absolutely anyone with a DSB, or a Donovan’s style nitrate reactor, as well as large quantities of live rock..

 

[chris85]

https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/fyi-do-parasites-get-parasites

I think you guys are underestimating nature.

 

[PapaDragon]

I don't think my method is lazy. I think quarantine is dooming a fish to a shorter life. To use my method you need fresh foods preferably some live foods. No flakes, pellets or freeze dried. You need to keep the fish in the same health they were in the sea.
I see many tanks and I can tell from experience that most of the fish are hardly in perfect health. Living doesn't mean much if the fish is not 100% perfect.

I didn’t main to imply that your method is lazy at all. I’m trying to say that people reading your post I hope don’t think that all they need to do is chuck some dirt in their aquarium and feed all their fish oysters to get healthy fish. I’ve been in the hobby a long time and I know we have both seen lazy people or people that aren’t willing to take the time to actually learn something about this beautiful hobby. I don’t believe they are going to be able to take what you wrote and replicate your success. There are so many variables in your method that it is hard to know which one is actually the essential step in raising healthy fish. After reading your posts the major takeaway that I identified was that we need to boost the fish own natural immunity instead of trying to irradicate the parasites with medication. My initial question is why do you believe we can’t quarantine and still feed them as you describe. Why are they mutually exclusive? Do you think that the fish benefits from having the parasite? I really enjoy reading post like this because this hobby is one of the few where real scientific discoveries are made by us.

 

[Hot2na]

Of course I remember Aqua Cure. I was there at the beginning of the hobby

My Journey began in 1975 .. with a 29 gal tank , nektonics UG filter and a 2 piston dynamaster to run the airlifts on the UG...man that thing was loud ! ...blue green algae was the thing to have in those days...cycled the tank with 25 killies I trapped from Randall bay in Freeport , LI...then we would use aquacure to knock out any parasties from the killies...Its amazing our fish survived back then with all that copper...If we only knew about immunity then...

Btw: nowadays my display has alot of natural antiparasitics...like a cleaner wrass,some cleaner shrimp,bluestripe neon goby and pederson's shrimp...I know people think these creatures dont do much...but believe me they help in keeping the parasites in check....that plus feeding blackworms,fresh caught fish.scallop.clam...all part of the equation...

 

[Frogger]

Hi Paul
There are a lot of posts in this thread and I have not been able to read all of them. Sorry if what I am saying has all ready been covered.
You mentioned earlier that your fish live for long periods and that in the past 5 months you have added 8 fish. Why the need to add so many fish when your fish live so long?

Personally I have been keeping saltwater fish tanks since the mid 80's and also currently have a couple clowns currently in my tank that are 25 year+ old. I have done both methods and have found that quarantining in a separate reef tank where I can keep any eye on a fish for several months to be sure that he is healthy, eating and is comfortable with my schedules before I add the new fish to my display tank. I isolate the new addition within the display tank to avoid it being picked on. I have had good success with this method and don't want to risk loosing my other fish (that I feel are part of my family). I have never added 8 new fish in a period of 5 months. There is some pretty nasty stuff out there and I have lost too many healthy fish by not taking the proper precautions.

My concern is your successes will only validate other reefers that dumping a newly acquired fish from the local fish store will result in the same results you have seen.

 

[Paul B]

My initial question is why do you believe we can’t quarantine and still feed them as you describe. Why are they mutually exclusive? Do you think that the fish benefits from having the parasite?

I think we should feed fish as I said no matter which method you choose but if you quarantine and keep a quarantined tank, you can't feed fresh or live foods because those foods may contain diseases and parasites. AS I said 1,476 times give or take, keeping fish away from pathogens for a certain period of time makes the fish lose it's ability to repel those pathogens. I didn't make that up. I found that information while researching for my immunity thread and my book. I can't find it now but it also happens with people which is why we get measles, flu and pneumonia shots every year. It doesn't last forever in us or fish.
So if your fish are quarantined and next year a parasite gets in, your fish will have no defense against it and your tank could easily crash. But if the parasites are actively living in there sampling a little fish occasionally, the fish remain immune indefinitely.

You mentioned earlier that your fish live for long periods and that in the past 5 months you have added 8 fish. Why the need to add so many fish when your fish live so long?

Frogger. I know you didn't read the entire thread (I don't blame you) so I will answer that excellent question.
5 months ago I moved here to a new house. My old 100 gallon tank was over 40 years old and scratched, it was also built in a wall and I couldn't remove it. I bought this new house and on moving day I bought a 125 gallon tank and brought everything in my old tank here. The new tank is about 8" deeper than the old tank so I had room for more fish and corals. I also said that I lost a pair of bangai cardinals because their lifespan is only 3 or 4 years. I had 2 or 3 wrasses jump out which I posted on my thread about my tank because my tank is not covered.
The fish I like to keep are all small interesting fish like bluestripe pipefish (which only live about 4 years) clown gobies, clingfish, gecko gobies etc.

My concern is your successes will only validate other reefers that dumping a newly acquired fish from the local fish store will result in the same results you have seen.

Again, look right now on the disease forum. See how many fish are dying or died in quarantine. That is not a sure fire way to do this either and I don't consider it responsible to use a method that kills so many fish. Maybe people are quarantining wrong, I don't know but there are thousands of fish lost in quarantine. I don't lose fish. I even take fish from local New York waters like tiny flounders, minnows, crabs starfish, eels, burrfish and put them in my tank just to add more varied diseases and parasites so my fish have stronger immunity.
I used to have a sea urchin collection business (Urchin Searchin Enterprises) where I would SCUBA dive here in NY for urchins and sell them to hobbiests for algae. Those NY urchins can go through a head of lettuce in a few days. I once had to many so I added 24 of them all at once to my reef. They all decided to spawn and my water looked like Half and Half. I diatom filtered the tank and removed the urchins. Nothing happened, nothing died but the corals loved it.
Fishes immunity will keep getting stronger as threats are added, providing they are fed correctly with food that has live bacteria and if some parasites are living with them. It makes them bulletproof and I want bullet proof fish.
When I buy a fish I don't have to worry if it has spots, or if the fish with it have spots. I don't have to observe it. I just need to put it in the tank, feed it and it lives forever. No problem.
To me, that means success.

 

[soflmuddin]

For decades I have done this method. I catch fish from the wild so they are not stressed as much as store bought fish. But no quarantine, l barely acclimate, no uv, no de. I do get "wild bacteria" one way on another with my collecting. I do feed whole foods mostly shrimp but i also feed flake food. I think Paul system works great with the key being get them feeding fast and well.
About 25 years ago I was convinced that artificial lighting was the trigger for ich outbreaks. I would have seemingly healthy fish for many months, no new additions. Then one night I would forget to turn lights off on the tank and in the morning most of the fish would be broke out with inch. Looking back now I'm pretty sure the extended light period was just the stressor that triggered the outbreak.
So I guess the big takeaway would be it works until it doesn't. I have the benefit of where I live to do this method. I don't think it's the best method for most people but for what it's worth, it is my preferred method.

 

[Dondante]

Great post and thread. Man, I wish there was a laugh react on here. Paul, you are a character. Love your YouTube videos .

I'm just returning to the hobby after about a 12+ year hiatus .Received a "saltwater" 30 gallon setup for Christmas around 1984. A Saltwater setup was crushed coral and a dual under gravel filter .

The articles and old books etc mentioned in this thread brought back authors and things I had forgotten. Great stuff.

I never QT'd and never had problems unless the fish wouldn't eat .I'm dealing with a bonded pair of clowns that I purchased a few weeks back. The female has spots. Still eating like a pig. Matter of fact she is eating hair algae off of a live rock .She started this after I pulled some loose and it floated by her and she ate it .

I'm on another thread deciding to QT with copper or ttm. I've been very afraid about pulling her and her mate out of the tank to go in a bare aquarium. I've ordered my copper and test to be ready to do this .I added LRS to their diet yesterday in hopes she loses her spots and I don't have to pull her out. The fish went nuts when I fed them lrs for the first time. The whole tank went bonkers .Even the inverts .as soon as it hit the water the tank came alive .

I know how stressful it is to remove them .I remember having fish in my reef tanks that would get spots and eventually pull through. Most deaths we're from fish that simply wouldn't eat. So this is hard for me. Better in the established tank where she's eating like crazy or being ripped out of the reef and thrown in a bare bottom tank with pvc?

Is there possibly more sick fish in the trade now? LFS livestock look nothing like they once did. Even the same stores I purchased from in the past.

I live 45 minutes from the Gulf of Mexico .I'm inspired to go grab some beach sand and critters. Will Al Gore be upset with me?

 

[Paul B]

I don't think fish are sicker now. I don't have problems with them but I don't buy fish that were just bitten in half either.
Al Gore is upset with everyone.

 

[Dondante]

I can't believe how far the hobby progressed in 10+ years. DC pumps, LED lighting and so many tank bred fish and corals. Really mind blowing .

Skilters are still a thing?