The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[fishybizzness]

Either you agree with Paul B's methods (or lack of a method) or you don't. I don't ever recall hearing Paul tell anyone to follow his method of keeping a tank. I have also never seen any post of Paul asking for advice on aquarium issues or aquarium keeping. It seems to me that most people accept Paul for what he is, a very good storyteller and probably the most successful aquarist in the country. A few people refuse to accept his success and repeatedly try to discredit him and his methods. I am truly one of the believers in his methods. I keep an aquarium that reflects what I see when I go snorkeling. I want it to be as natural as possible. I use sand from the ocean, live rock and nsw. I regularly add ocean caught ghost shrimp mycid shrimp and feed fresh food with local caught mahi roe added. I've had my share of ups and downs but so have most people with a new tank less than 2 years old. All Paul has stated in this thread is "another" way of keeping a reef tank , not the only way.

 

[Neptune 555]

Either you agree with Paul B's methods (or lack of a method) or you don't. I don't ever recall hearing Paul tell anyone to follow his method of keeping a tank. I have also never seen any post of Paul asking for advice on aquarium issues or aquarium keeping. It seems to me that most people accept Paul for what he is, a very good storyteller and probably the most successful aquarist in the country. A few people refuse to accept his success and repeatedly try to discredit him and his methods. I am truly one of the believers in his methods. I keep an aquarium that reflects what I see when I go snorkeling. I want it to be as natural as possible. I use sand from the ocean, live rock and nsw. I regularly add ocean caught ghost shrimp mycid shrimp and feed fresh food with local caught mahi roe added. I've had my share of ups and downs but so have most people with a new tank less than 2 years old. All Paul has stated in this thread is "another" way of keeping a reef tank , not the only way.

Fishybizzness,

do you run UV?

 

[atoll]

Either you agree with Paul B's methods (or lack of a method) or you don't. I don't ever recall hearing Paul tell anyone to follow his method of keeping a tank. I have also never seen any post of Paul asking for advice on aquarium issues or aquarium keeping. It seems to me that most people accept Paul for what he is, a very good storyteller and probably the most successful aquarist in the country. A few people refuse to accept his success and repeatedly try to discredit him and his methods. I am truly one of the believers in his methods. I keep an aquarium that reflects what I see when I go snorkeling. I want it to be as natural as possible. I use sand from the ocean, live rock and nsw. I regularly add ocean caught ghost shrimp mycid shrimp and feed fresh food with local caught mahi roe added. I've had my share of ups and downs but so have most people with a new tank less than 2 years old. All Paul has stated in this thread is "another" way of keeping a reef tank , not the only way.

I think you sum it up nicely. A number of us who don't QT and in fact don't recommend it do some things slightly different to Paul simply due to our location. However, there are a lot of similarities with both bacteria, disease and parasites being all playing an important part with the health of our fish. There are other similarities of course.
A few years ago I introduced flat worms to my tank which came on a coral. At first they multiplied but never got to plague proprtions and they jusy died away and I never saw any again. I never introduced a fish or anything else to eat them they just went of their own accord. I never panicked like some and went for something like flat worm exit. Just like itch I have introduced they just disapeared.

 

[Neptune 555]

Yes we were lucky where I lived, back when I started, we could collect live rock from the reefs of South Florida, and I still have some in my system that must be close to 40yrs old. Sorry no river water or mud, but live sand and water collected from the Outer Reefs, and Gulfstream.

Jay,

Do you run UV? As I am about to add NSW and Mud - I am wondering if everyone who does this also has a UV on their system. I am not against using a UV just never have before.

thanks!

 

[Jay Norris]

I currently have 3 tangs that are "immune". Right now the only fish in my 180 to have any visible signs of ich is a puffer that has been in the tank for 2 months and he has less and less spots every week. All my fish are wild caught by me except for two trigger fish. There are 30+ fish and 5 moray in my tank and nothing has ever been quarantined. They came straight from ocean and into my tank. Most will show signs of ich within 3-5 days and usually clear up by two weeks. All survive, even the tangs.

Hi, where abouts in South Florida do you live? I live in the Falls, Palmetto Bay area.

 

[fishybizzness]

Fishybizzness,

do you run UV?

I run a small uv from 8 PM to 6 am. I also run ozone through my skimmer.

 

[soflmuddin]

Hi, where abouts in South Florida do you live? I live in the Falls, Palmetto Bay area.

Homestead

 

[fishybizzness]

I run a small uv from 8 PM to 6 am. I also run ozone through my skimmer. View attachment 944208

I didn't purchase the ozone unit, it was given to me and I figured since I had it I may as well use it. I saw almost immediate results in water clarity after installing it. Not sure if it helps with the crypto but as I said, I figured it can't hurt.

 

[Neptune 555]

I think you sum it up nicely. A number of us who don't QT and in fact don't recommend it do some things slightly different to Paul simply due to our location. However, there are a lot of similarities with both bacteria, disease and parasites being all playing an important part with the health of our fish. There are other similarities of course.
A few years ago I introduced flat worms to my tank which came on a coral. At first they multiplied but never got to plague proprtions and they jusy died away and I never saw any again. I never introduced a fish or anything else to eat them they just went of their own accord. I never panicked like some and went for something like flat worm exit. Just like itch I have introduced they just disapeared.

Atoll

I currently have 3 tangs that are "immune". Right now the only fish in my 180 to have any visible signs of ich is a puffer that has been in the tank for 2 months and he has less and less spots every week. All my fish are wild caught by me except for two trigger fish. There are 30+ fish and 5 moray in my tank and nothing has ever been quarantined. They came straight from ocean and into my tank. Most will show signs of ich within 3-5 days and usually clear up by two weeks. All survive, even the tangs.

Do you run UV or do anything to mechanically remove the pathogens?

thanks!
Neptune

 

[Jay Norris]

Jay,

Do you run UV? As I am about to add NSW and Mud - I am wondering if everyone who does this also has a UV on their system. I am not against using a UV just never have before.

thanks!

Hi, at this time I do not run UV, and never have in the past, but I might try it for a completely different reason in the near future. As far as adding Mud and NSW, I would not hesitate adding it directly to your tank, as long as the water and Mud come from a pristine area, with out any pollution, or storm run off. I collect my water from the Gulfstream, usually 15 to 20 miles offshore, and the mud comes from Southern Biscayne Bay, or Florida Bay. If you are unsure about the quality of the sea water you are collecting or the mud, send it to a lab to have it checked out.

 

[Paul B]

Fishybizzness, first all, Thank you.
This was many years ago, but I think my tank looked the most natural here and I liked it the best. A lot of people won't like it because many people feel, or like better, a stick forest. But as you and me realize, if you went snorkling or diving in shallow water, this is what you see. That codium seaweed I collect near here in the Atlantic and it lives a few months. There were only a few SPS here. I see a tongue coral in the foreground.

As for story telling, I have no idea what you are talking about, but a good story teller was Galileo. He was born in Piza, where they put up crooked towers and invented Pizza.
Most people don't know but he played the lute and wanted to be a priest. Of course when he invented the telescope and told the Pope he was wrong about the planets, the Pope cut off his Pizza supply and he had to go on to other things. So he turned his telescope around and made it into a microscope where he discovered Ich parasites. No one at the time had a fish tank except Copernicus who also had problems with the Pope for discovering that some of the planets revolved around the sun and many of the closer planets harbored pods, bristleworms and Velvet parasites.

He was a real innovator until Archimedes realized that Ich and Velvet was bad. He assumed that they were related to bedbugs and the beds at the time were actually made out of bedbugs. He was bitten so much that he decided to invent the screw. For some unknown reason bedbugs and parasites were attracted to big ramps that went uphill. A screw to a Pod, Bedbug or Ich parasite looks much like a ramp and they think there is food at the top so they climb it. The problem with his hypothesis was that once those creatures got to the top of the screw, they had no where to go and he had to throw the screw into the sea and build another one.
(Thats actually how Pods got into the sea in the first place)

Thats how it was done until Benjamin Franklin came on the scene. He was a little out of shape so for exercise he would run around in lightning storms flying a kite. A little known fact was that he originally started to do this in France. He found that if he took Archimedes screw filled with those creatures all stuck up at the top, and tied it to the kite, not only would he get electrocuted when lightning hit the kite, But the Pods, ich and velved would get fried.

And thats where we got French Fries from. Just a little history lesson.

 

[Jay Norris]

Homestead

Were not to far apart, ever go to the sand bar at Sands Cut? Maybe we can get together on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[Jay Norris]

Fishybizzness, first all, Thank you.
This was many years ago, but I think my tank looked the most natural here and I liked it the best. A lot of people won't like it because many people feel, or like better, a stick forest. But as you and me realize, if you went snorkling or diving in shallow water, this is what you see. That codium seaweed I collect near here in the Atlantic and it lives a few months. There were only a few SPS here. I see a tongue coral in the foreground.

As for story telling, I have no idea what you are talking about, but a good story teller was Galileo. He was born in Piza, where they put up crooked towers and invented Pizza.
Most people don't know but he played the lute and wanted to be a priest. Of course when he invented the telescope and told the Pope he was wrong about the planets, the Pope cut off his Pizza supply and he had to go on to other things. So he turned his telescope around and made it into a microscope where he discovered Ich parasites. No one at the time had a fish tank except Copernicus who also had problems with the Pope for discovering that some of the planets revolved around the sun and many of the closer planets harbored pods, bristleworms and Velvet parasites.

He was a real innovator until Archimedes realized that Ich and Velvet was bad. He assumed that they were related to bedbugs and the beds at the time were actually made out of bedbugs. He was bitten so much that he decided to invent the screw. For some unknown reason bedbugs and parasites were attracted to big ramps that went uphill. A screw to a Pod, Bedbug or Ich parasite looks much like a ramp and they think there is food at the top so they climb it. The problem with his hypothesis was that once those creatures got to the top of the screw, they had no where to go and he had to throw the screw into the sea and build another one.
(Thats actually how Pods got into the sea in the first place)

Thats how it was done until Benjamin Franklin came on the scene. He was a little out of shape so for exercise he would run around in lightning storms flying a kite. A little known fact was that he originally started to do this in France. He found that if he took Archimedes screw filled with those creatures all stuck up at the top, and tied it to the kite, not only would he get electrocuted when lightning hit the kite, But the Pods, ich and velved would get fried.

And thats where we got French Fries from. Just a little history lesson.

Hi Paul, that sounds all good and dandy to me, but my question to you is, who was the first person to set up a non quarantine tank, and how has that helped us evolve into the way we keep our non quarantine tanks today, and beyond.

 

[Paul B]

That was Robert Straughn who wrote the book "The Salt Water Aquarium for the Home" which was my bible and was in the fiftees. Also with him was Lee Chin Eng but he was from (I forget maybe Shri Lanka but it will come to me) He cheated a little because the place was tropical and his tanks were outside and he used everything from the sea and natural sunlight. But as far as I know it was Straughn who also collected all his specimens and kept everything. I set mine up in 71 with no quarantine because we didn't know anything about it and just kept copper in the tanks.
It evolved like everything else in this hobby. Someone got an idea and we all tried it but we had to read it in a book because of the no internet or computer problem so information traveled slow. There were also no aquarium clubs because very few people had a salt tank. I never knew anyone who had one and stores knew less than I did. As a matter of fact I helped start 3 or 4 aquarium stores in New York for salt water. One was one of the largest in Queens and is still in business. I also started a store with NSW. I had an 18' boat at the time and I brought out big vats and filled them up with NSW. I trailored that boat so I backed it up to the store and pumped the water into his tanks.
I don't remember ever quarantining but I did have a hospital tank and I would treat very sick fish in there with copper and formalin. It was and still is very easy to eliminate parasites and I am not sure why so many people have so much trouble with that. I am sure I used my diatom filter to help remove parasites. Eventually my fish and I assume other people's fish became immune and that is the tank I still run today.

I published articles in some Aquarium magazines about my methods in the 70s and 80s.

 

[soflmuddin]

No uv, the only mechanically is a 200 micron filter sock that is usually overflowing. There is some filter floss that I have no idea why I run it because it doesn't let my pods get to the display.

 

[Jay Norris]

That was Robert Straughn who wrote the book "The Salt Water Aquarium for the Home" which was my bible and was in the fifteens. Also with him was Lee Chin Eng but he was from (I forget maybe Shri Lanka but it will come to me) He cheated a little because the place was tropical and his tanks were outside and he used everything from the sea and natural sunlight. But as far as I know it was Straughn who also collected all his specimens and kept everything. I set mine up in 71 with no quarantine because we didn't know anything about it and just kept copper in the tanks.
It evolved like everything else in this hobby. Someone got an idea and we all tried it but we had to read it in a book because of the no internet or computer problem so information traveled slow. There were also no aquarium clubs because very few people had a salt tank. I never knew anyone who had one and stores knew less than I did. As a matter of fact I helped start 3 or 4 aquarium stores in New York for salt water. One was one of the largest in Queens and is still in business. I also started a store with NSW. I had an 18' boat at the time and I brought out big vats and filled them up with NSW. I trailored that boat so I backed it up to the store and pumped the water into his tanks.
I don't remember ever quarantining but I did have a hospital tank and I would treat very sick fish in there with copper and formalin. It was and still is very easy to eliminate parasites and I am not sure why so many people have so much trouble with that. I am sure I used my diatom filter to help remove parasites. Eventually my fish and I assume other people's fish became immune and that is the tank I still run today.

I published articles in some Aquarium magazines about my methods in the 70s and 80s.

Yes, I knew Robert Straughn, I grew up a few houses down from him, and he helped me get started into this great hobby. So I guess you, me and a few other people here were his first students in how to keep a non quarantined tank. If only I knew then what I know now, oh well, cant have everything.

 

[mshonk]

Always has been my approach. The thought of dipping, catching, moving, QT'ing seems like added stress to the animal. In the past I have had two tangs bounce back from ich with a variety in diet and steady tank params. Plus I look at trying to catch something and remove it from the tank as stress on you this is supposed to be a fulfilling hobby not a stressful one!

 

[MnFish1]

Not really sure how you can speak for how or what everyone has or does take qt to mean in this thread or otherwise.
For me qt means just that, and what you describe is a hospital tank.

First - there are 2 people talking in the post you quoted - me and me quoting Paul. Pauls quote was : Quarantine in this thread means separating the fish for 72 days as is what is proposed to kill parasites - so actually Im not sure when you say 'you' above about whom you're talking.

In my post,Im not talking about what people do when they leave a tank fallow (which is usually 76 days not 72). The QT I'm talking about is the QT that people do when they buy or obtain a new fish before they put it into a display tank. Some people QT for 2 weeks, some for 3, some for 4 some 6 some for 2 months some for longer. Some add copper some dont. Some add Chloroquine some don't. Some people drop the fish in. My point was that Everyone's definition of QT is different.

Again - Im not talking about leaving a tank fallow and removing fish for x days.

Frankly - I still don't understand the quote (especially since the recommended fallow period is 76 days not 72) - and it would only 'kill' parasites in the fallow tank - not on the fish . Paul makes no mention of medication in his definition of 'quarantine'.

 

[MnFish1]

Either you agree with Paul B's methods (or lack of a method) or you don't. I don't ever recall hearing Paul tell anyone to follow his method of keeping a tank. I have also never seen any post of Paul asking for advice on aquarium issues or aquarium keeping. It seems to me that most people accept Paul for what he is, a very good storyteller and probably the most successful aquarist in the country. A few people refuse to accept his success and repeatedly try to discredit him and his methods. I am truly one of the believers in his methods. I keep an aquarium that reflects what I see when I go snorkeling. I want it to be as natural as possible. I use sand from the ocean, live rock and nsw. I regularly add ocean caught ghost shrimp mycid shrimp and feed fresh food with local caught mahi roe added. I've had my share of ups and downs but so have most people with a new tank less than 2 years old. All Paul has stated in this thread is "another" way of keeping a reef tank , not the only way.

Well - I hope you're not talking about me - Regarding Paul's methods - I said nothing but positive things about his methods, I even praised his storytelling abilities. I have only said - I think Paul sometimes uses terms like immune and QT - in ways that are not standard - and lead to confusion, and that I think that any good quality fish food pellet, dry, frozen etc will do just as well as worms or frozen clams if one is trying to build an 'immune tank'. (whatever an immune tank is).

One factual thing that I disagree with - and there is no way Im incorrect in this - is that there is no such thing as a fish that 'is immune to everything' as Paul claims to have. It is scientifically impossible.

 

[soflmuddin]

Were not to far apart, ever go to the sand bar at Sands Cut? Maybe we can get together on a Sunday afternoon.

I use to go years ago. No collecting allowed out there so I usually go to the keys.