The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Mortie31]

@MnFish1 Maybe the 76 day Fallow period is being challenged now as well.. or rather fallow itself rather than the time..
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/why-a-fallow-period-will-sometimes-fail.571/
Nothing is ever simple, but that’s why we appreciate the hobby so much.

 

[Mortie31]

In the time of Galileo, most of the 'people' would have voted that the earth was flat.

There are still people who do think this... along with the earth formed 6000 years ago...

I apologize to each an every member of the forum that feels I've mishandled things I've said here (or insulted @PaulB) - and once again I deeply respect Paul for many reasons beyond this article. Frankly - I'm getting tired as well - arguing fact vs. opinion. I'm also not a 12 year old - have been doing this for 40+ years as well. So there's that. I have learned MANY MANY MANY new things reading here - and discussing here. This part of the forum is about discussing - if people think thats offensive - well - so be it.

No need to apologise, I for one have really appreciated your input and challenging the discussion, we are all trying to learn and improve and it’s important we challenge each other’s views and methods... and you do it in a respectful way as well...

 

[atoll]

As an old timer keeping marines for more years than probably the average age on here the only FACTS that really matter to me are that there are enough people keeping marines that don't QT and their fish don't get real sick and die from diseases and the likes of ick that others do keeping fish by QTing them. We have fish that live long lives and spawn and don't get the sicknesses others suffer with FACT. We have introduced fish with the likes of ich and yet other fish don't catch it FACT. Fish introduced with ich quickly recover from it FACT. The only thing I can reasonably attribute to this amazing succes is the way we keep our fish healthy. I don't even fully understand that when I have introduced Royal grammas (I have 4) that the new one has spots and scratches against the rocks and sand but 36 hours later is free of them FACT. I don't use UV as I don't care for it FACT. I did try UV many years ago but it seems to make my tank too free of the kind of things my fish can fight off themselves. I believe mother nature has it right so I try as best I can to follow her teachings as best I can and it works for me and quite a few others. I have a friend here in the UK who thinks the same and practices similar to how I keep my reef with the same success. Immunity appears to be the key. Like Paul I wouldn't tell anybody how to go about keeping marines well at least not like I and a few more I know do.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1 Maybe the 76 day Fallow period is being challenged now as well.. or rather fallow itself rather than the time..
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/why-a-fallow-period-will-sometimes-fail.571/
Nothing is ever simple, but that’s why we appreciate the hobby so much.

Yep - I read it - I responded to it. Thats why its always important to keep questioning - rather than 'trusting' the experts. Off topic warning - My feeling on this study is that its completely differently than what we're doing in our tanks. In the study they took living CI trophonts (I believe - but I always mess up the terms) - and put them in anaerobic conditions and they survived. Its very interesting - and it has implications for filters and probably those who use undergravel filters. But I think its a rare problem. Again Just my opinion. It was an extremely interesting thread.

 

[MnFish1]

As an old timer keeping marines for more years than probably the average age on here the only FACTS that really matter to me are that there are enough people keeping marines that don't QT and their fish don't get real sick and die from diseases and the likes of ick that others do keeping fish by QTing them. We have fish that live long lives and spawn and don't get the sicknesses others suffer with FACT. We have introduced fish with the likes of ich and yet other fish don't catch it FACT. Fish introduced with ich quickly recover from it FACT. The only thing I can reasonably attribute to this amazing succes is the way we keep our fish healthy. I don't even fully understand that when I have introduced Royal grammas (I have 4) that the new one has spots and scratches against the rocks and sand but 36 hours later is free of them FACT. I don't use UV as I don't care for it FACT. I did try UV many years ago but it seems to make my tank too free of the kind of things my fish can fight off themselves. I believe mother nature has it right so I try as best I can to follow her teachings as best I can and it works for me and quite a few others. I have a friend here in the UK who thinks the same and practices similar to how I keep my reef with the same success. Immunity appears to be the key. Like Paul I wouldn't tell anybody how to go about keeping marines well at least not like I and a few more I know do.

Funny thing is - I always agree with you. I have done things that many here would NEVER do. I will say that you 'guys' are also 'making up' artificial things that suggest you're right (confirmatory bias). As I've said before my guess is that most people don't keep 2 of one species - so spawning should not be a criteria. But - if it is - My clowns spawned every week-2 weeks my gold flake angels spawned (or looked like they were spawning) every couple months.

All of the other criteria you're using - I could say the same thing. I havent had problems with CI/velvet, etc.

IMHO - the issue here isn't CI (for the average person - and isnt that average person the one we want entering the hobby?) - it's velvet. I have absolutely no clue whether there is more velvet now than 20 years ago. But - the one time I bought fish from an online supplier - which arrived healthy looking, eating, etc etc - a week later not only they - but 80 % of the rest of the fish in my tank were dead(none of the fish had been quarantined) - I decided to look into 'why'. Its not about personalities or experts or who's right and who's wrong - its about what's best. And - if I am going to change my method - i.e. try to (which would be nearly impossible) search out live foods/fresh seafood or (which would be impossible) - get buckets of seawater with 'stuff' in it, or (how would I know) - put garden soil in my tank - I want to know references, statistics, etc. Because I dont have a nano-cube. I have a tank with thousands of dollars of livestock. So please forgive me (and this is meant earnestly) - if I dare to question the how's and why's of this method - that keeps being repeated on the (I think) most prominent/well respected reefing site in the world.

 

[Ardeus]

As an old timer keeping marines for more years than probably the average age on here the only FACTS that really matter to me are that there are enough people keeping marines that don't QT and their fish don't get real sick and die from diseases and the likes of ick that others do keeping fish by QTing them. We have fish that live long lives and spawn and don't get the sicknesses others suffer with FACT. We have introduced fish with the likes of ich and yet other fish don't catch it FACT. Fish introduced with ich quickly recover from it FACT. The only thing I can reasonably attribute to this amazing succes is the way we keep our fish healthy. I don't even fully understand that when I have introduced Royal grammas (I have 4) that the new one has spots and scratches against the rocks and sand but 36 hours later is free of them FACT. I don't use UV as I don't care for it FACT. I did try UV many years ago but it seems to make my tank too free of the kind of things my fish can fight off themselves. I believe mother nature has it right so I try as best I can to follow her teachings as best I can and it works for me and quite a few others. I have a friend here in the UK who thinks the same and practices similar to how I keep my reef with the same success. Immunity appears to be the key. Like Paul I wouldn't tell anybody how to go about keeping marines well at least not like I and a few more I know do.

I read this whole thread not with the intention of finding a method of reefing, but to try to find ways that I think can improve the health of my tank. It's easy to find lots of useful information here, thanks to everyone! From you particularly, I decided to try an oxydator - it's on its way. Thanks!

That being said, I kept putting myself in the position of someone that wanted to follow your paths and it can be frustrating, because there's no clear and safe method, neither on how to start a new tank nor on how to adapt an existing one.

After reading all this, if I had to pick a reason for the fish entering your tanks sick and in a few days becoming healthy, I would say that your tanks (not the fish) reached a level of maturity that include mechanisms that keep things like ich in check. I would also bet that the food choices have little to deal with it.

All these parasites are the prey of something else. That something is probably present in your tanks and in balance.

If someone wants to follow your method, the first thing they need is to get a rock, a pound of substrate and a gallon of water from your tanks to seed their own.

 

[fragit]

@MnFish1 I gotta ask. How long have you been keeping marine aquariums? What are your credentials? You seem to make a lot of claims/arguments as if your a biologist or immunologist. It seems like you’ve made more comments here in @Paul B ’s thread than anybody else. It really feels like you are not open to the discussion and are bent on saying that people who have been keeping their aquariums like this for longer than probably most reefers have been alive are wrong. Have you any substantiated data that proves this? And how do you know what you are talking about?

 

[Thales]

As an old timer keeping marines for more years than probably the average age on here the only FACTS that really matter to me are that there are enough people keeping marines that don't QT and their fish don't get real sick and die from diseases and the likes of ick that others do keeping fish by QTing them. We have fish that live long lives and spawn and don't get the sicknesses others suffer with FACT. We have introduced fish with the likes of ich and yet other fish don't catch it FACT. Fish introduced with ich quickly recover from it FACT. The only thing I can reasonably attribute to this amazing succes is the way we keep our fish healthy. I don't even fully understand that when I have introduced Royal grammas (I have 4) that the new one has spots and scratches against the rocks and sand but 36 hours later is free of them FACT. I don't use UV as I don't care for it FACT. I did try UV many years ago but it seems to make my tank too free of the kind of things my fish can fight off themselves. I believe mother nature has it right so I try as best I can to follow her teachings as best I can and it works for me and quite a few others. I have a friend here in the UK who thinks the same and practices similar to how I keep my reef with the same success. Immunity appears to be the key. Like Paul I wouldn't tell anybody how to go about keeping marines well at least not like I and a few more I know do.

Most of that is anecdote, not fact. Anecdote is fine, but has its limits.

 

[Thales]

@MnFish1 I gotta ask. How long have you been keeping marine aquariums? What are your credentials? You seem to make a lot of claims/arguments as if your a biologist or immunologist. It seems like you’ve made more comments here in @Paul B ’s thread than anybody else. It really feels like you are not open to the discussion and are bent on saying that people who have been keeping their aquariums like this for longer than probably most reefers have been alive are wrong.

I have over 40 years of experience, and 20 years of professional experience, and I agree with much of what MnFish1 has contributed to this thread. Though it feels like a weird thing to ask.
I think it is more instructive when someone is giving you advice, to ask to see a photo of their tank. If you want a tank that looks like that, follow their advice. If you don't want a tank that looks like that, don't follow their advice.

Have you any substantiated data that proves this?

This seems a bit of a nutty thing to ask since the OP has provided no substantiated data to support their points.

 

[fragit]

This seems a bit of a nutty thing to ask since the OP has provided no substantiated data to support their points.

He has said as much actually very clearly stated what he has observed in hi tank (anecdote) and that he thinks (not fact) he knows why. That’s it...

 

[EmdeReef]

@MnFish1 I gotta ask. How long have you been keeping marine aquariums? What are your credentials? You seem to make a lot of claims/arguments as if your a biologist or immunologist. It seems like you’ve made more comments here in @Paul B ’s thread than anybody else. It really feels like you are not open to the discussion and are bent on saying that people who have been keeping their aquariums like this for longer than probably most reefers have been alive are wrong. Have you any substantiated data that proves this? And how do you know what you are talking about?

In science and (hopefully) daily life those who put forth theories or make claims should bear the burden of proof. With respect, age and experience do not always equal wisdom or being right.

@MnFish1 brings up a number of valid questions about disease pathology, immunity and fish immunity. It would take anyone with science background unlearning significant (albeit imperfect) body of knowledge to begin believing many bold unsubstantiated claims throughout this thread, such as that isolating a fish in quarantine will erase its immunity, that adding soil microbes to a hostile/incompatible marine environment will somehow help immunity...or for that matter that nutrition can produce perfect immunity...

 

[fragit]

I really enjoyed reading like the first two pages of this thread. I found it interesting, informative and thought provoking. Then it became a debate, and the enjoyment has been killed for me. How about asking the OP more questions instead of questioning his ideas and thoughts about his system and experience. I can’t be part of this thread anymore there is just too much arguing. Peace to you all.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1 I gotta ask. How long have you been keeping marine aquariums? What are your credentials? You seem to make a lot of claims/arguments as if your a biologist or immunologist. It seems like you’ve made more comments here in @Paul B ’s thread than anybody else. It really feels like you are not open to the discussion and are bent on saying that people who have been keeping their aquariums like this for longer than probably most reefers have been alive are wrong. Have you any substantiated data that proves this? And how do you know what you are talking about?

Its funny I actually was about to present my CV to you - but then I thought - 'why'? Everything I've said is easily found on google LOL if you want to take the time look it up. FWIW - I have a B.S. in microbiology immunology and several years of training after that. BTW - And I would really appreciate you answering - what part of the discussion am I not open to? Please feel free to post specific examples. I also wonder why you're focused on where I've posted here - it seems a bit stalker-like - but for the sake of conversation - I usually focus on tank emergency, chemistry, and fish diseases.

Also - frankly - my guess is that 99% (I would have said 100) but thats never the case - of zoos and public aquaria would never follow this protocol (maybe they are wrong) - you can google that also - try 'aquarium biosecurity' for starters. Then if you want to question their methods - feel free to do so (to them - not myself).

See - here is the thing. One can discuss what the best LED is for a reef tank - i.e. what Kelvin, etc. One can not say eating parasites induces immunity. One can discuss whether a tang can live in a 10 gallon tank (or not) - one cannot discuss whether putting fish in a hospital tank for 72 days "destroys their immune system". I hope you can see the difference. Some things are a 'method'. Some things are 'scientific fact' - until perhaps proven otherwise. Its not a personal issue - its a factual issue

 

[MnFish1]

Its funny I actually was about to present my CV to you - but then I thought - 'why'? Everything I've said is easily found on google LOL if you want to take the time look it up. FWIW - I have a B.S. in microbiology immunology and several years of training after that. BTW - And I would really appreciate you answering - what part of the discussion am I not open to? Please feel free to post specific examples. I also wonder why you're focused on where I've posted here - it seems a bit stalker-like - but for the sake of conversation - I usually focus on tank emergency, chemistry, and fish diseases.

Also - frankly - my guess is that 99% (I would have said 100) but thats never the case - of zoos and public aquaria would never follow this protocol (maybe they are wrong) - you can google that also - try 'aquarium biosecurity' for starters. Then if you want to question their methods - feel free to do so (to them - not myself).

See - here is the thing. One can discuss what the best LED is for a reef tank - i.e. what Kelvin, etc. One can not say eating parasites induces immunity. One can discuss whether a tang can live in a 10 gallon tank (or not) - one cannot discuss whether putting fish in a hospital tank for 72 days "destroys their immune system". I hope you can see the difference. Some things are a 'method'. Some things are 'scientific fact' - until perhaps proven otherwise. Its not a personal issue - its a factual issue

So if anyone wants a really funny anecdote - in my post above - I said 'BS" - ie.. bachelor of science - and the site changed it to the word 'crap'. LOL So I had to edit it. but it was funny to me

Whats even funnier is that I cant explain the story - because the website keeps changing "B. S". to crap ol

 

[MnFish1]

I really enjoyed reading like the first two pages of this thread. I found it interesting, informative and thought provoking. Then it became a debate, and the enjoyment has been killed for me. How about asking the OP more questions instead of questioning his ideas and thoughts about his system and experience. I can’t be part of this thread anymore there is just too much arguing. Peace to you all.

Dude - with no offense - you havent been reading.

 

[MnFish1]

He has said as much actually very clearly stated what he has observed in hi tank (anecdote) and that he thinks (not fact) he knows why. That’s it...

You need to re-read the article. There are not a lot if 'I thinks'. Most of it is written as 'fact'. Im not a mean person - I wish Paul no ill will - I dont have a competing agenda or method. What is yours?

 

[Thales]

He has said as much actually very clearly stated what he has observed in hi tank (anecdote) and that he thinks (not fact) he knows why. That’s it...

If it is good enough for them to not give any substantiating data on these subjects, why would you ask for it from others?

 

[theMeat]

 

[MnFish1]

If it is good enough for them to not give any substantiating data on these subjects, why would you ask for it from others?

I would suggest that the articles on 'skeptical reef keeping' www.SkepticalReefkeeping.org - by @Thales be read by everyone here. Not for this particular thread - but - just to see some of the issues when reading a website recommending things in general. The first time I read a couple of these articles - I was like - yeah - this is actually correct. Again - it has nothing to do with @PaulB s article - per se - but it is a great article about how to read advice on internet and other forums. Agree or disagree its interesting reading. I learned a heck of a lot reading them. And If I remember correctly @Thales and I have butted heads on other issues - but these articles are seriously a must read.

 

[MnFish1]

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you made my day LOL that was totally funny