The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MJC]

Mike, I think I remember you but a lot of people came to see my tank and they were all really nice. Did I give you anything or did you give me anything? Did we discuss the tank, boats, Scuba diving or anything that would Jog my memory. Did anyone come with you?

We mainly discussed your tank and your supermodel wife . O yes and your brine shrimp feeder.
We also met another time at Advance Marine Aquatics you had bought a red mushroom rock. I have a Soft Coral Dominant tank and we were discussing our appreciation for the old school corals you don't see that often any more lol.
Jog Your memory? I have a long gray ponytail lol

 

[atoll]

Mike, I think I remember you but a lot of people came to see my tank and they were all really nice. Did I give you anything or did you give me anything? Did we discuss the tank, boats, Scuba diving or anything that would Jog my memory. Did anyone come with you?

I get similar on the UK forums those that have visited seen my tank and know my methods. Most of which they find amazing and often the way they have been told of the only ways you can keep a healthy tank. Some go away with frags some with just a few things to think about and question some of the must do ways. All have lots of questions and as best as I can I provide them with answers or theories. My tanks are a testomy to how I keep them and they appear to appreciate that just like those who have visited you and marvel at your tank. After all isnt the proof in the pudding.

 

[Jay Norris]

Hey Jay - you must not have read what I wrote. There is no debate. Just curious - based on what you've read from what I've written - how is my method different from Pauls? Maybe you should read my first post on this thread (or maybe the second lol) - and then come back and tell me where we differ. And - apologetically, you dont know what kind of fish I keep. So Im not totally sure where you're coming from.

The things im discussing are fact based - for example - . You can't (as far as I'm aware and I'm happy to have anyone tell me differently) feed CI to a fish and have that preserve their immunity to CI - yet thats in the article.

This might sound snarky - but its not meant to be. Maybe people should just post their articles - with their individual methods - and R2R shouldn't have a comment section - that would prevent all of this useless banter?

Sorry not trying to be offensive towards you, but I did go back to the first 5 pages of this post and did not find your first post, so I quite trying. Ok, maybe I should have not have used the word debate, but your are very, very curious person with your replies to Paul's statements, and I don't see anywhere in Paul's replies he tells anyone this is a proper way to run a tank, but that it is the way he runs his tank, and the way a lot more then a few run their tanks in regards to quarantining their tanks. I will say this, this method of running a tank is not for your average reefer, but more for the aquarist who has the know knowledge and money to do so. The only reason I started running my tanks in the beginning was, because that was the only way we knew how to in the beginning, we didn't know a whole lot about the different diseases or parasites fish got back then, or the proper lighting to keep corals, or the mount of water flow, and water changes needed to keep a healthy tank. Unfortunately back then we lost a few fish, but we also learned from our mistakes, and starting devising was to keep our tanks in a more stable and natural way over the decades. As time went on some aquarist went the sterile quarantine way, and some of the more experienced aquarist went the alternative way to taking care of the tanks. Both ways work for the many different type of aquarist, i't just that some prefer the more natural way.

 

[Jay Norris]

Funny thing is - I always agree with you. I have done things that many here would NEVER do. I will say that you 'guys' are also 'making up' artificial things that suggest you're right (confirmatory bias). As I've said before my guess is that most people don't keep 2 of one species - so spawning should not be a criteria. But - if it is - My clowns spawned every week-2 weeks my gold flake angels spawned (or looked like they were spawning) every couple months.

All of the other criteria you're using - I could say the same thing. I havent had problems with CI/velvet, etc.

IMHO - the issue here isn't CI (for the average person - and isnt that average person the one we want entering the hobby?) - it's velvet. I have absolutely no clue whether there is more velvet now than 20 years ago. But - the one time I bought fish from an online supplier - which arrived healthy looking, eating, etc etc - a week later not only they - but 80 % of the rest of the fish in my tank were dead(none of the fish had been quarantined) - I decided to look into 'why'. Its not about personalities or experts or who's right and who's wrong - its about what's best. And - if I am going to change my method - i.e. try to (which would be nearly impossible) search out live foods/fresh seafood or (which would be impossible) - get buckets of seawater with 'stuff' in it, or (how would I know) - put garden soil in my tank - I want to know references, statistics, etc. Because I dont have a nano-cube. I have a tank with thousands of dollars of livestock. So please forgive me (and this is meant earnestly) - if I dare to question the how's and why's of this method - that keeps being repeated on the (I think) most prominent/well respected reefing site in the world.

Maybe we don't need to question all the how's and why's on the post as much as we are, but just realize that this method works for a lot of aquarist who also run their systems similar to Paul's. The questions and responses you bring up are very interesting, and should be on a more scientific post where we could get in deeper details of both methods being used, and the positives and negatives of each method.

 

[atoll]

Most of us are just hobbyist who have been in the game many years, tried things which have worked or failed. Personally I can't stop tinkering and if it isn't broken fix it anyway. My most recent foray into such has been with my lighting. I did a video of it last year since which I have continued to

Maybe we don't need to question all the how's and why's on the post as much as we are, but just realize that this method works for a lot of aquarist who also run their systems similar to Paul's. The questions and responses you bring up are very interesting, and should be on a more scientific post where we could get in deeper details of both methods being used, and the positives and negatives of each method.

Most of us are just hobbyist who have been in the game many years, tried things which have worked or failed. Personally I can't stop tinkering and if it isn't broken fix it anyway. My most recent foray into such has been with my lighting. I did a video of it last year since which I have continued to Most of us are just hobbyist who have been in the game many years, tried things which have worked or failed. Personally I can't stop tinkering and if it isn't broken fix it anyway. My most recent foray into such has been with my lighting. I did a video of it last year since which I have added 4 T5 tubes 2 at the front 2 to the rear.

 

[Jay Norris]

How do you start a tank according to your method? Could you explain it in broad strokes?

Hi, I would like to reply to your question, the way I set my system up ,is use the highest quality live rock you can find, this is very important due to all the good and so called bad life that comes with really good live rock. I also use live sand freshly collected from the outer reefs, then NSW, very high quality lighting, plenty of water flow from multiple locations in your tank, a very good skimmer, a heater,or chiller if needed, as this will help keep your temperature stable. The main thing aquarist need to do for keeping a successful tank in my opinion, is to go slow, do overcrowd and put unnecessary stress on your fish, keep your water parameters as close as possible to NSW and make sure they are stable, along with your lighting. Feed your fish as high a quality food that you can find. I use frozen and live food only as I believe this type of food is more nutritious, and has a lot more beneficial bacteria in it to help our fish with their immune system. If you can try out this method, as it has worked for me, and many other aquarist I have known thru the decades.

 

[Jay Norris]

Yeah, this kind of thread is how misinformation continues to spread.

I lost a tank to crytocaryons and another to velvet. I learned the hard way. Since following proper quarantine procedures, I haven't lost a single fish in my display tanks.

It takes just one single fish not yet displaying symptoms of cyrpto, velvet, brook, or one of hundreds of other diseases to contaminate and kill everything in your display. Once there you cannot feed away ich or velvet. This has been scientifically documented numerous times. If you are very lucky, your fish might build up a temporary immunity to cryptocaryons.

With the way fish are captured, stocked together, shipped together then stocked together for wholesale and then finally shipped to your lfs, the fish we buy are contaminated and exposed to do many different pathogens and diseases.

Knowing all that we know about how fish are so exposed between the ocean and our homes, and knowing that proper quarantining of new fish prevents these diseases from reaching our display tanks, why would anyone risk the health of their fish by not quarantining?

It makes absolutely zero sense. None.

People act like fish never die from disease or parasites in the wild, when nothing can be further from the truth. They do. Alot do. Anyone who's grown up along any coastline and was an angler out on the water alot knows the truth. You catch fish that sometimes have more worms than flesh, and wonder how they are alive. You see outbreaks of things kill fish buy the thousands at times.

Yes, some things in this are correct, like biodiversity and proper nutrition, but to build these fairytale theories on them is too much.

I've been at this 35 years. I believe you have been increasing lucky more than anything else. One day you will unfortunately add a fish with ich or velvet or some other pathogen, and will lose most of, if not all of, the fish in your tank. I hope you don't, and hope your luck continues, but like any method depending on luck (which this really does), eventually your luck will run out.

Aways quarantine, always.

Hi, yes your way is a good way for you, and it works, that's all that matters. My way and a few other aquarist way on here are different then yours, and it works for us, so that is all that matters for me. Well good luck going forward and it's all about how healthy and happy our fish are in the end that matters.

 

[Ardeus]

By using live rock, sand and NSW, you do your best to bring whatever is found in the ocean to your tank as much as you can.

This leads me to conclude that it's something inside your tanks that prevents the fish from succumbing to illness and not an especially boosted immune system.

The fact that you are able to put sick fish in your tanks and it gets better very quickly also leads me to the same conclusion.

 

[atoll]

It's been mentioned that although I keep most my fish as they would be found on the reef in pairs, groups or shoals that few on here keep them that way. Now that is a shame as IMO they are missing out. I was once told one of my favourite fish the Royal gramma was nice but boring. My answer was to disagree and told him to keep 2 rather than a single specimen. Same goes for damsels which are a much maligned fish and you see a totally different side to them in a small group. Many Damsels are much more than a cheap hardy fish if you allow them to be themselves. I can say similar about many of my groups or pairs of fish that I keep.

 

[Thales]

No need to be sorry at, however, which of my facts do you suggest are not facts but something I have made up or presumed? I don't have a science based background, like Paul I am from the building industry. Anecdotal you say, well in that case it must be with my 10 or 11tanks over 36years and that of a number of friends of mine so yes my methods and that of my friends have been repeated many times. Of course not in a scientific way just as we have set up and maintained our tanks for so many years and never QTd any fish. We must be doing something wrong as our fish don't get sick and most we buy that are get better. Anecdotal is a word people often use on here when they are stumped it would seem but its not anecdotal when fish die in QT or when our fish live long lives spawn and are healthy.

Most of that is absolutely anecdote - a personal story about something that happened. Anecdote is not bad, but is prone to many kinds of fallacy. Anecdote is not fact. Anecdote is often the start of science.

 

[Thales]

Again which of the things I have observed many times in my tank and with my fish are not facts? It's not enough to suggest what I say about my tank and that of a number of my friends are not facts without you pointing them out so we can learn from you or challenge you.

All of them are anecdote. We may be having a misunderstanding about what anecdote is. I wrote this for just that reason, I hope it is helpful

http://packedhead.net/2014/skeptical-reefkeeping-x-the-power-of-anecdote/

 

[atoll]

Most of that is absolutely anecdote - a personal story about something that happened. Anecdote is not bad, but is prone to many kinds of fallacy. Anecdote is not fact. Anecdote is often the start of science.

I mentioned 5 things that happen in my tank as facts. Can you qoute them and tell me why without changing my wording (not that I am suggesting you would do such a thing )please Thanks

 

[Thales]

What we state as to what we do and how we keep our fish and tanks I hope are taken as just that. Now as to why our fish don't get sick and many we introduce get better is open to debate, theory or whatever. I however suggest that what we observe is purely anecdotal when such has been repeated so many times by so many people whi do similar things. Before people go on about carrying research in a veey scientific way under laboratory conditions you know that's not going to happen but to dismiss our experience with our tanks over so many years as anecdotal is ignoring our success and passing it off as little morebthan luck.

This is a misunderstanding about anecdote and science. Please read the previous like about the Power of Anecdote. There is much room for useful science between anecdote and 'under laboratory conditions'

 

[Thales]

I mentioned 5 things that happen in my tank as facts. Can you qoute them and tell me why without changing my wording (not that I am suggesting you would do such a thing )please Thanks

Sure. Please quote the post and tag me. Thanks

 

[atoll]

This is a misunderstanding about anecdote and science. Please read the previous like about the Power of Anecdote. There is much room for useful science between anecdote and 'under laboratory conditions'

Again I must ask what is it about the 5 things I said are facts about things that happen (or don't) in my tank are purely anecdotal? Thanks

 

[Thales]

Again I must ask what is it about the 5 things I said are facts about things that happen (or don't) in my tank are purely anecdotal? Thanks

You bet. Please quote the post and tag me so we are sure to be talking about the same thing. Driving now. Thanks!

 

[atoll]

Sure. Please quote the post and tag me. Thanks

I asked you which are the 5 facts I posted that I have witnessed in my tank are anecdotal you seem relucatant to answer, fine we shall move on as I don't wish to play games with you.

What I and many more observe in our tanks happen time and time again as to why now that could be anecdotal reasons given but not what we witness time and time again. If a fish is introduced with itch and that itch is no longer on the fish after a period, recovers fully and other fish in the tank show no signs of it is that not a fact.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry not trying to be offensive towards you, but I did go back to the first 5 pages of this post and did not find your first post, so I quite trying. Ok, maybe I should have not have used the word debate, but your are very, very curious person with your replies to Paul's statements, and I don't see anywhere in Paul's replies he tells anyone this is a proper way to run a tank, but that it is the way he runs his tank, and the way a lot more then a few run their tanks in regards to quarantining their tanks. I will say this, this method of running a tank is not for your average reefer, but more for the aquarist who has the know knowledge and money to do so. The only reason I started running my tanks in the beginning was, because that was the only way we knew how to in the beginning, we didn't know a whole lot about the different diseases or parasites fish got back then, or the proper lighting to keep corals, or the mount of water flow, and water changes needed to keep a healthy tank. Unfortunately back then we lost a few fish, but we also learned from our mistakes, and starting devising was to keep our tanks in a more stable and natural way over the decades. As time went on some aquarist went the sterile quarantine way, and some of the more experienced aquarist went the alternative way to taking care of the tanks. Both ways work for the many different type of aquarist, i't just that some prefer the more natural way.

You and some others here are trying to suggest (or outright say) that this is a debate about 'methods' or 'Paul'. Its not. The funny thing - in ny posts here and elsewhere - I have often complimented @PaulB and @atoll on their beautiful tanks and success.

What I don't see here - is you - for example responding to my post about the factual scientific errors used to describe the success of this 'method' - which Paul also calls 'lack of a method'. I don't see you or atoll or Paul himself responding to the interchangeable use of the words pathogen and parasite - or the varying definitions of the words 'immune' and 'quarantine'. I never see you or atoll respond when I suggest that publishing an article on the most respected reefing site (I think) containing the words - paraphrased - I dont check parameters they don't matter with no real explanation or rationale I think thats 'odd'.

I never said @PaulB tells people this is the only way to 'run a tank'.

This is my "method". (tell me where Paul and I differ that much)

I dont QT (meaning - I dont quarantine fish before putting them in my display tank)
I dont use medication
I dont overstock my tank
I keep the tank clean but I have various areas with algae, I do not remove all detritus.
I feed excellent flake and Frozen foods.
I use a skimmer and carbon. No Ozone No UV

I do not buy fish often - and when I do its from the same local fish store that has the fish in with inverts (ie. no copper - and I usually watch them for some time before buying them).

 

[atoll]

You and some others here are trying to suggest (or outright say) that this is a debate about 'methods' or 'Paul'. Its not. The funny thing - in ny posts here and elsewhere - I have often complimented @PaulB and @atoll on their beautiful tanks and success.

What I don't see here - is you - for example responding to my post about the factual scientific errors used to describe the success of this 'method' - which Paul also calls 'lack of a method'. I don't see you or atoll or Paul himself responding to the interchangeable use of the words pathogen and parasite - or the varying definitions of the words 'immune' and 'quarantine'. I never see you or atoll respond when I suggest that publishing an article on the most respected reefing site (I think) containing the words - paraphrased - I dont check parameters they don't matter with no real explanation or rationale I think thats 'odd'.

I never said @PaulB tells people this is the only way to 'run a tank'.

This is my "method". (tell me where Paul and I differ that much)

I dont QT (meaning - I dont quarantine fish before putting them in my display tank)
I dont use medication
I dont overstock my tank
I keep the tank clean but I have various areas with algae, I do not remove all detritus.
I feed excellent flake and Frozen foods.
I use a skimmer and carbon. No Ozone No UV

I do not buy fish often - and when I do its from the same local fish store that has the fish in with inverts (ie. no copper - and I usually watch them for some time before buying them).

I do test params but I am not anal over doing so. I test PH with a meter. PO4 NO3 calc and mag. I have a calc reactor and from time to time I may need to adjust it same with mag. My NO3 and PO4 are always low typically 5ppm or less PO4 around 0.02. I also add iron and Iodine to feed my waterfall ATS. I do have the odd little clump of GHA but its nit a problem. I get a little red cyno on my sand now and again but that's not a problem either.

 

[MnFish1]

Maybe we don't need to question all the how's and why's on the post as much as we are, but just realize that this method works for a lot of aquarist who also run their systems similar to Paul's. The questions and responses you bring up are very interesting, and should be on a more scientific post where we could get in deeper details of both methods being used, and the positives and negatives of each method.

As I have said 50 times (and also no offense to you) - Who is questioning the how's and why's? I'm questioning factual errors in the article. I'm questioning inconsistencies in the article - and the wording in the article and subsequent responses that lead to total confusion. There is nothing wrong with 'anecdote' as a way to further ideas and discussion. There is a difference between fact, theory and anecdote. I will suggest example to illustrate the difference:

1. Paul feeds natural foods which he thinks contain parasites and has no problems with CI or Velvet. (Anecdote)
2. Paul thinks that the 2 things he (in sentence # 1) does help keep his fish healthy (Theory)
3. Paul states that 'quarantine' (whatever that is defined as) causes the 'immune system to be destroyed'. That is stated as a fact. (The problem is that its completely wrong).

No one can debate #1 its what Paul does. People can debate #2 - but it won't be of much effort - because no one can prove he is 'wrong'.

The problem is #3 is used to justify the reason for #1 and #2. And - its stated as a fact - and it's incorrect. So - if I write a post saying that why do you reply that I'm questioning his method.

Frankly I don't think it matters if a million people are using his methods or 5 people are. See my next post.