The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Thales]

I would suggest that the articles on 'skeptical reef keeping' www.SkepticalReefkeeping.org - by @Thales be read by everyone here. Not for this particular thread - but - just to see some of the issues when reading a website recommending things in general. The first time I read a couple of these articles - I was like - yeah - this is actually correct. Again - it has nothing to do with @PaulB s article - per se - but it is a great article about how to read advice on internet and other forums. Agree or disagree its interesting reading. I learned a heck of a lot reading them. And If I remember correctly @Thales and I have butted heads on other issues - but these articles are seriously a must read.

Thanks so much for the kind words.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

It's cool to read this thread because in the beginning when I first added fish to my tank I had 2 clowns die from brook. So I got on here and started reading about how I need to let my tank run fallow for so many days and start QT'ing my fish. Well, I really didn't want to rid my tank of the other fish I had in it so I started reading about immune systems of fish and how they normally fight off these killer critters. So I purchased two more clownfish and threw them in my tank. I started feeding the same kind of stuff. The first day I saw some signs of brook on both clowns but instead of freaking out and throwing them in some formaldehyde. I kept doing what I was doing and making sure I was providing as stress-free an environment as possible.

Well within 48hours they beat the brook. I've had the same clowns almost a year now.

 

[MnFish1]

It's cool to read this thread because in the beginning when I first added fish to my tank I had 2 clowns die from brook. So I got on here and started reading about how I need to let my tank run fallow for so many days and start QT'ing my fish. Well, I really didn't want to rid my tank of the other fish I had in it so I started reading about immune systems of fish and how they normally fight off these killer critters. So I purchased two more clownfish and threw them in my tank. I started feeding the same kind of stuff. The first day I saw some signs of brook on both clowns but instead of freaking out and throwing them in some formaldehyde. I kept doing what I was doing and making sure I was providing as stress-free an environment as possible.

Well within 48hours they beat the brook. I've had the same clowns almost a year now.

This makes sense (to me). That said - the fish you bought may have had partial immunity - or some other reason - but. YEAH

 

[soflmuddin]

After reading all this, if I had to pick a reason for the fish entering your tanks sick and in a few days becoming healthy, I would say that your tanks (not the fish) reached a level of maturity that include mechanisms that keep things like ich in check. I would also bet that the food choices have little to deal with it.

Your might be correct but I still think is as simple as stress. Be it something microscopic in or not in the water or just the tankmates giving a new fish a reassurance that everything is going to be alright. Might be that whole foods somehow help relieve stress. I know that feeding heavily helps my very aggressive predators keep the peace. Like I said earlier I have 5 wild caught moray eels that all get along and get along with their 30 tankmates.

My water is nowhere near pristine. My nitrates are never below 25ppm and my phosphates are embarrassingly high, over 2 ppm. Have not done water change in months, at least 3. Sometimes I go near a year with no.water changes. My ro needs changing, tds was 30+, last I checked and I evaporate 2.5 gpd. Corals don't seem too upset so I sorta let it ride until I see gsp or zoes close up. Frogspawn and candycane never seem to care. I can keep flame scallops long term, 3 have been in the tank for a couple years . Gregorian grows real well. Not much sps but they survive, though not greatest color presumably because of high phosphates. Water temp is a little high, 80. My Ph is a very stable 8.2. I did do a lot of reading here to get it up and stabilized. In the end I add 2 tsp sodium carbonate to my 10 gal ato, have skimmer intake going outside along with a small air pump outside running a Beachwood air stone in refugium that has cheto lit 12hrs, opposite the display.

 

[Jonathan Troutt]

This makes sense (to me). That said - the fish you bought may have had partial immunity - or some other reason - but. YEAH

You are correct there could have been "other" things happening here. My home is smaller and unfortunately, I do not have room for a QT tank. In reality if I could have a QT area I would just as a double layer of protection so I can say I am doing my due diligence. Maybe one day.

 

[hotashes]

Your might be correct but I still think is as simple as stress. Be it something microscopic in or not in the water or just the tankmates giving a new fish a reassurance that everything is going to be alright. Might be that whole foods somehow help relieve stress. I know that feeding heavily helps my very aggressive predators keep the peace. Like I said earlier I have 5 wild caught moray eels that all get along and get along with their 30 tankmates.

My water is nowhere near pristine. My nitrates are never below 25ppm and my phosphates are embarrassingly high, over 2 ppm. Have not done water change in months, at least 3. Sometimes I go near a year with no.water changes. My ro needs changing, tds was 30+, last I checked and I evaporate 2.5 gpd. Corals don't seem too upset so I sorta let it ride until I see gsp or zoes close up. Frogspawn and candycane never seem to care. I can keep flame scallops long term, 3 have been in the tank for a couple years . Gregorian grows real well. Not much sps but they survive, though not greatest color presumably because of high phosphates. Water temp is a little high, 80. My Ph is a very stable 8.2. I did do a lot of reading here to get it up and stabilized. In the end I add 2 tsp sodium carbonate to my 10 gal ato, have skimmer intake going outside along with a small air pump outside running a Beachwood air stone in refugium that has cheto lit 12hrs, opposite the display.

Be great to have some imagery of your set up. Certainly keen to see if you’ve a sand bed and how it looks. Would also have interest to see how your rock looks

A.

 

[soflmuddin]

Be great to have some imagery of your set up. Certainly keen to see if you’ve a sand bed and how it looks. Would also have interest to see how your rock looks

A.

Down to night blues so hard to see but I have about an inch of crush coral. I gave up on sand a year or so ago and went thru a mini cycle after and then about 5 months ago my refugium developed a leak so went thru another mini cycle when I replaced it. Lost a lot of pods with the fuge change.

 

[soflmuddin]

Here is with a filter but still phone camera

 

[Frogger]

I am sorry Mr. Atoll but you throw around the word "fact" a little too loosely. As I have a science based background there has been nothing presented on this thread or forum for that matter that is "Fact". Facts have to be proven through a scientific process. It is yours and everyone else's experiences that have created your theory's and it is anecdotal at best. There have been a lot of absolutes thrown around on this thread. Almost nothing in reef keeping is absolute.

I am happy you have had great success as I am that Paul has had great success in marine fish keeping. But there are just as many people that have had great success in reef keeping doing it completely different ways. They are not anymore right or wrong then you are. The only thing this thread has shown is there are multiple ways to skin a cat. I really appreciate everyone's participation in this thread. It has been a great read and I have learned a lot. Please continue to inform us of your experiences but please keep them as your experiences.

 

[atoll]

I am sorry Mr. Atoll but you throw around the word "fact" a little too loosely. As I have a science based background there has been nothing presented on this thread or forum for that matter that is "Fact". Facts have to be proven through a scientific process. It is yours and everyone else's experiences that have created your theory's and it is anecdotal at best. There have been a lot of absolutes thrown around on this thread. Almost nothing in reef keeping is absolute.

I am happy you have had great success as I am that Paul has had great success in marine fish keeping. But there are just as many people that have had great success in reef keeping doing it completely different ways. They are not anymore right or wrong then you are. The only thing this thread has shown is there are multiple ways to skin a cat. I really appreciate everyone's participation in this thread. It has been a great read and I have learned a lot. Please continue to inform us of your experiences but please keep them as your experiences.

No need to be sorry at, however, which of my facts do you suggest are not facts but something I have made up or presumed? I don't have a science based background, like Paul I am from the building industry. Anecdotal you say, well in that case it must be with my 10 or 11tanks over 36years and that of a number of friends of mine so yes my methods and that of my friends have been repeated many times. Of course not in a scientific way just as we have set up and maintained our tanks for so many years and never QTd any fish. We must be doing something wrong as our fish don't get sick and most we buy that are get better. Anecdotal is a word people often use on here when they are stumped it would seem but its not anecdotal when fish die in QT or when our fish live long lives spawn and are healthy.

 

[theMeat]

Weird.
My pbt showing white spots. Not concerning but as a matter of fact did raise an eyebrow. After a few weeks I didn’t see it get better, it maybe got worse. Hmmm. Only to discover the fact that my slightly undersized uv was left unplugged about 2 months ago. Plugged it back in and within days pbt and all others are in fact spot-free again.

 

[atoll]

Most of that is anecdote, not fact. Anecdote is fine, but has its limits.

Again which of the things I have observed many times in my tank and with my fish are not facts? It's not enough to suggest what I say about my tank and that of a number of my friends are not facts without you pointing them out so we can learn from you or challenge you.

 

[atoll]

Funny thing is - I always agree with you. I have done things that many here would NEVER do. I will say that you 'guys' are also 'making up' artificial things that suggest you're right (confirmatory bias). As I've said before my guess is that most people don't keep 2 of one species - so spawning should not be a criteria. But - if it is - My clowns spawned every week-2 weeks my gold flake angels spawned (or looked like they were spawning) every couple months.

All of the other criteria you're using - I could say the same thing. I havent had problems with CI/velvet, etc.

IMHO - the issue here isn't CI (for the average person - and isnt that average person the one we want entering the hobby?) - it's velvet. I have absolutely no clue whether there is more velvet now than 20 years ago. But - the one time I bought fish from an online supplier - which arrived healthy looking, eating, etc etc - a week later not only they - but 80 % of the rest of the fish in my tank were dead(none of the fish had been quarantined) - I decided to look into 'why'. Its not about personalities or experts or who's right and who's wrong - its about what's best. And - if I am going to change my method - i.e. try to (which would be nearly impossible) search out live foods/fresh seafood or (which would be impossible) - get buckets of seawater with 'stuff' in it, or (how would I know) - put garden soil in my tank - I want to know references, statistics, etc. Because I dont have a nano-cube. I have a tank with thousands of dollars of livestock. So please forgive me (and this is meant earnestly) - if I dare to question the how's and why's of this method - that keeps being repeated on the (I think) most prominent/well respected reefing site in the world.

What we state as to what we do and how we keep our fish and tanks I hope are taken as just that. Now as to why our fish don't get sick and many we introduce get better is open to debate, theory or whatever. I however suggest that what we observe is purely anecdotal when such has been repeated so many times by so many people whi do similar things. Before people go on about carrying research in a veey scientific way under laboratory conditions you know that's not going to happen but to dismiss our experience with our tanks over so many years as anecdotal is ignoring our success and passing it off as little morebthan luck.

 

[Ardeus]

What we state as to what we do and how we keep our fish and tanks I hope are taken as just that. Now as to why our fish don't get sick and many we introduce get better is open to debate, theory or whatever. I however suggest that what we observe is purely anecdotal when such has been repeated so many times by so many people whi do similar things. Before people go on about carrying research in a veey scientific way under laboratory conditions you know that's not going to happen but to dismiss our experience with our tanks over so many years as anecdotal is ignoring our success and passing it off as little morebthan luck.

How do you start a tank according to your method? Could you explain it in broad strokes?

 

[atoll]

How do you start a tank according to your method? Could you explain it in broad strokes?

Sand preferably with some from an established system. Live rock. Skimmer oxydators correct foods. Pick a couple of small fish. However for the past god knows how many years it's often been a case of transferring much of what I already had to my next tank then adding to it when the tank is larger. I also transfer any biological media like Siporax along with skimmer and calc reactor etc.

One thing I also do is provide a lot of alternating water movement in the DT. I do believe that is important but then lots of things are important and it's a combination of things working together.

The idea is to make the transfer of the fish to their new home as stress free as possible. The aquascape and tank set up and running a few days before any fish go in if possible.

However, last time I had to transer my rock over and then corals before fish all in the same day. I don't add any new fish for a couple of weeks to allow the existing ones to settle.

The last transfer over I did I lost one damsel, I simply couldn't find it until the next morning dead in 1/2" of cold muddy water in the bottom of the old tank.

It's some years since I had to set up completely afresh. I would however usebsome sand from a friends tank in my DT mixed with the new to help kick start it.

 

[MJC]

@Paul B thanks for sharing
You probably don't remember me but that's ok, about 3 years ago I had the pleasure of meeting you, talking with you and seeing your tank in your old house. You have been and continue to be an inspiration and I just wanted to say thank you for your experience with your reef tank.
Happy Reefing
MikeC

 

[Paul B]

In science and (hopefully) daily life those who put forth theories or make claims should bear the burden of proof. With respect, age and experience do not always equal wisdom or being right.

This is of course true. This was not meant to be a scientific paper. I have said many times I am an electrician, not a researcher. But for all the scientific things I mentioned like fish eating parasites induces immunity, I did not make that up, but found it in scientific research papers. If I say the parasites get processed in the kidney, that doesn't mean the parasites literally get into the kidney. Obviousely it means the blood carried chemicals to the kidney from the gut where the parasites are digested. But I feel most of us are not scientists and don't really care. For the purpose of a fish site, that's the way I write.
For my book and my immunity article I read dozens of scientific journals which took me quite a while to find and I don't want to find them again. I did look for a couple but some of them are no longer on the net. In things that I am not sure about or why they work or don't work I say I "think" or "I don't know" because I don't. If I say I added garden soil, invented by someone with much more experience than anyone here, I mention who it was. I don't make things up and I don't want you to point to sentences where you think I made it up. I am not a professional writer although I have written a few things. I am a hobbyist like everyone here, I just happen to have been doing this longer than anyone here so these are my practices, my Ideas and my theories. Agree with them if you like, or don't.

I never said to do it this way. I said, this is my way like Frank Sinatra.
Now I am going to take some drugs because even though I had my knee replaced 4 or 5 weeks ago, the thing is killing me and I have a busy day today.
Have a great day
Paul

References:
Me

 

[John Sullivan]

Yeah, this kind of thread is how misinformation continues to spread.

I lost a tank to crytocaryons and another to velvet. I learned the hard way. Since following proper quarantine procedures, I haven't lost a single fish in my display tanks.

It takes just one single fish not yet displaying symptoms of cyrpto, velvet, brook, or one of hundreds of other diseases to contaminate and kill everything in your display. Once there you cannot feed away ich or velvet. This has been scientifically documented numerous times. If you are very lucky, your fish might build up a temporary immunity to cryptocaryons.

With the way fish are captured, stocked together, shipped together then stocked together for wholesale and then finally shipped to your lfs, the fish we buy are contaminated and exposed to do many different pathogens and diseases.

Knowing all that we know about how fish are so exposed between the ocean and our homes, and knowing that proper quarantining of new fish prevents these diseases from reaching our display tanks, why would anyone risk the health of their fish by not quarantining?

It makes absolutely zero sense. None.

People act like fish never die from disease or parasites in the wild, when nothing can be further from the truth. They do. Alot do. Anyone who's grown up along any coastline and was an angler out on the water alot knows the truth. You catch fish that sometimes have more worms than flesh, and wonder how they are alive. You see outbreaks of things kill fish buy the thousands at times.

Yes, some things in this are correct, like biodiversity and proper nutrition, but to build these fairytale theories on them is too much.

I've been at this 35 years. I believe you have been increasing lucky more than anything else. One day you will unfortunately add a fish with ich or velvet or some other pathogen, and will lose most of, if not all of, the fish in your tank. I hope you don't, and hope your luck continues, but like any method depending on luck (which this really does), eventually your luck will run out.

Aways quarantine, always.

 

[Paul B]

@Paul B thanks for sharing
You probably don't remember me but that's ok, about 3 years ago I had the pleasure of meeting you, talking with you and seeing your tank in your old house. You have been and continue to be an inspiration and I just wanted to say thank you for your experience with your reef tank.
Happy Reefing
MikeC

Mike, I think I remember you but a lot of people came to see my tank and they were all really nice. Did I give you anything or did you give me anything? Did we discuss the tank, boats, Scuba diving or anything that would Jog my memory. Did anyone come with you?

 

[atoll]

Yeah, this kind of thread is how misinformation continues to spread.

I lost a tank to crytocaryons and another to velvet. I learned the hard way. Since following proper quarantine procedures, I haven't lost a single fish in my display tanks.

It takes just one single fish not yet displaying symptoms of cyrpto, velvet, brook, or one of hundreds of other diseases to contaminate and kill everything in your display. Once there you cannot feed away ich or velvet. This has been scientifically documented numerous times. If you are very lucky, your fish might build up a temporary immunity to cryptocaryons.

With the way fish are captured, stocked together, shipped together then stocked together for wholesale and then finally shipped to your lfs, the fish we buy are contaminated and exposed to do many different pathogens and diseases.

Knowing all that we know about how fish are so exposed between the ocean and our homes, and knowing that proper quarantining of new fish prevents these diseases from reaching our display tanks, why would anyone risk the health of their fish by not quarantining?

It makes absolutely zero sense. None.

People act like fish never die from disease or parasites in the wild, when nothing can be further from the truth. They do. Alot do. Anyone who's grown up along any coastline and was an angler out on the water alot knows the truth. You catch fish that sometimes have more worms than flesh, and wonder how they are alive. You see outbreaks of things kill fish buy the thousands at times.

Yes, some things in this are correct, like biodiversity and proper nutrition, but to build these fairytale theories on them is too much.

I've been at this 35 years. I believe you have been increasing lucky more than anything else. One day you will unfortunately add a fish with ich or velvet or some other pathogen, and will lose most of, if not all of, the fish in your tank. I hope you don't, and hope your luck continues, but like any method depending on luck (which this really does), eventually your luck will run out.

Aways quarantine, always.

From your post above it indicates you have not read many of the posts above by Paul myself and a few others before writing it which is a real shame but you can lead a horse to water etc. I and many more have been lucky, hmmm that's some luck and we should play the lottery with such amazing luck. However, you are not the first to suggest such so maybe there is just a tiny bit of luck but really.