Ready to quit the hobby; SPS or bust

[twentyleagues]

I am not a huge stick guy. I like the colors, I like fuzzy acros like millis,but overall lack of movement is what kills it for me. The parameters seem fine for ulns run a lower alk to make it easier less growth maybe but no burnt tips to deal with. The only thing we are unsure of is flow and with cyano out breaks as others have said that may be a very large contributing factor. Pics would allow other to see the extent of coralline growth which could be an indicator also, but not necessarily.

When I set up an sps tank years ago I used dry rock, it was tied into and existing system with plenty of live rock so maybe that was the difference. My rock was bone white for at least 4 months. As soon as I set up the tank I put acros into it. People on the forums I was on told me that tank will crash and burn, its not mature enough. Maybe they didnt read my full build thread or my crazy long winded posts. Some sticks did great obviously some did not. Some of my issues where nutrients they were quite high. The acros I took out of the mixed reef I had did fine. Some of the new ones I had gotten did great others ok and some up and died. About a year after I set that up and the things that grew and grew well but maybe not the brightest colors I started bringing nutrients down trying to get the colors I wanted and saw in others tanks. That was/is the pinnacle of reefing right? sticks. Lost some sticks, lost some lps, zoas, macros. Really did a hard dive into ulns and found out most that run ulns keep a lower alk then I was, chased that rabbit for a while. Eventually I went back to how it was before sticks and the top of the reefing mountain became my unintentional goal. I lost some sticks but really didnt care, alot still grew and where pretty. I was happier, so were the rest of my corals. My point in all that? Many people that did this ulns thing pointed at dry rock and high alk as bad in the system. They all agreed if going or at uln alk should be no higher then mid 8s better to be 7.5-8. Has that changed in 15 years maybe I dont know. Sounds like it may have.....?

If you want sticks and cant currently keep them you need to make some sort of change to do so. I wouldnt say everyone and every tank can keep them but most should be able to. Pretty sure if I can do it most can do it. I dont think its a matter of getting the easiest to keep either, probably help. Acros out of existing tanks are going to be easier then out of the ocean for anyone same with most corals.

 

[Floyd-]

+1 on this. In the past, I’ve gone to extremes trying to solve “problems” in my tank, but oftentimes things would thrive the most when I was more hands-off with things, only maintaining a good dosing schedule. Stability is key, and there is no fast way of achieving it.

Its the truth! too many new people toss loads of chemicals into their tank trying to "fix" issues and end up creating their own headaches. I only feed once a day, change my filter socks every 3-4 days and do my weekly water changes.
Also a SPS tank doesnt have to be low nutrients. My SPS are doing great and im at like .2 phosphate and 10 nitrate last I checked.

DONT CHASE NUMBERS! just get them in the ball park and dont mess with it. Life will find a way.

 

[Sharkbait19]

DONT CHASE NUMBERS! just get them in the ball park and dont mess with it. Life will find a way.

Definitely. Honestly, my best way of gauging the health of my tank is by looking at coral and algae growth. If both are at a steady rate, something must be right. If the algae proliferates too much, the nitrates may be running a little high. If corals are being outgrown, it may be time to focus on feeding them some more. While the occasional test never hurts, I definitely don’t do it religiously, as I often will see something that “isn’t right”, then mess things up trying to change things.

 

[KK's Reef]

I have a small pico that has been thriving for 3+ years. When I started reefing, people said you can't keep SPS in a small butt tank. Well, you can. It might be harder, but you can. I've killed my share of acros, but it was something I did whether I knew it or not. Early on, lost frags due to immature biome and cooking under too much PAR. More recently, lost chunky grown frags due to something I did, but can't explain. I did a water change and decided to stir up the sand. It must've stirred some bad bacteria into the water column. Water became cloudy and the next morning, the acros were pale and/or had beginnings of STN.

My params are stable. It's not always spot on, but it never deviates from a small range. The sand stirring spiked my PO4. I'm convinced our tanks are filled with things that we don't even know are in there. Every new fish, new coral, new frag plug introduced, introduces a new population of some type of bacteria. All it takes is one minor or major stressor and all hell breaks loose. In my case, maybe elevated PO4 in a super short amount of time.

Up to you if you want to quit, but if it were easy, there'd be more people in the hobby. I think most of us like the challenge (and the punishment) this hobby brings. Don't get me wrong, I'm gutted that my beautiful Homewrecker is struggling to survive. Most of my frags were bought at 1 inch and are now chunky and ready to be glued on the rocks. I thought about just throwing them away and starting over. BUT, their still animals and they're still alive, so I'll nurse them back until they're thriving again, or until they croak.

You shouldn't quit. Best of luck to you.

 

[Sharkbait19]

I did a water change and decided to stir up the sand. It must've stirred some bad bacteria into the water column. Water became cloudy and the next morning, the acros were pale and/or had beginnings of STN.

How deep is the sandbed? I had a similar issue until I realized that my sandbed had large pockets of hydrogen sulfide that, when kicked up, would wipe out all my corals and some of my inverts. Wound up removing the sandbed and haven’t had a problem since.

 

[KK's Reef]

How deep is the sandbed? I had a similar issue until I realized that my sandbed had large pockets of hydrogen sulfide that, when kicked up, would wipe out all my corals and some of my inverts. Wound up removing the sandbed and haven’t had a problem since.

It's only 1/2" to 3/4" inch deep. I used to stir it up with every water change in the beginning, but when the tank matured, my algae went away. I hadn't stirred it up in a long while, and with this particular water change, I did.

I'm not saying we shouldn't stir the sand, we should just do in small segments. To your point, this not only affects SPS. Some of the bacteria baddies affect LPS as well.

 

[kdx7214]

I know exactly what you mean. I don't have the funds necessary for that large a tank, but I do have a 75g DT and have yet to keep an sps alive longer than a few weeks, and I have no idea why. For the time being I'm enjoying my fish and softies though.

 

[ariellemermaid]

Start with the basics here.. what all equipment do you have on your tank? What filtration? I’m guessing a roller mat and skimmer if you can’t keep nitrates up… are you carbon dosing or just got poor flow? What’s causing the cyano?

#2 Sicce Syncra 9.0’s for returns running at 52%. #4 4K gyres running 25-100%. Your guess is as good as mine on the cyano. I’m not sure that it’s as simple as something “causing” it per se. We’re running a 20g coral/invert QT that got the cyano first. In that case it was a high nutrient tank and the cyano would bloom, then die, then come back, rinse and repeat. Lately it too has matured into a ULNS. Anyway, point is, this cyano has survived different tanks and different conditions.

Share some pictures of your set up and most recent ICP please
What salt are you using?
What are you dosing for stability?
What fish do you keep?
Have you TDS checked your RODI?
Do you make your own salt water?
The Cyano blooms suggests to me you may not have enough flow

Level
2	SW2L01021	Ca	452.355	ppm
3	SW2L01021	Mg	1449.734	ppm
4	SW2L01021	K	501.84	ppm	high
5	SW2L01021	Cl	22654.265	ppm	high
6	SW2L01021	Na	11304.989	ppm
7	SW2L01021	S	780.555	ppm
8	SW2L01021	Sr	6.85	ppm	low
9	SW2L01021	B	6.683	ppm
10	SW2L01021	Br	73.739	ppm
11	SW2L01021	Co	0	ppb
12	SW2L01021	Cr	0.431	ppb
13	SW2L01021	Fe	3.068	ppb	low
14	SW2L01021	I	10.9	ppb	low
15	SW2L01021	Li	0	ppb	low
16	SW2L01021	Mn	0	ppb	low
17	SW2L01021	P	0	ppb
18	SW2L01021	Mo	25.728	ppb
19	SW2L01021	Ni	0	ppb	low
20	SW2L01021	V	4.204	ppb
21	SW2L01021	Zn	0	ppb	low
22	SW2L01021	Ag	0	ppb
23	SW2L01021	Al	113.512	ppb
24	SW2L01021	As	0.48	ppb
25	SW2L01021	Au	0	ppb
26	SW2L01021	Ba	2.715	ppb
27	SW2L01021	Be	0.005	ppb
28	SW2L01021	Cd	0	ppb
29	SW2L01021	Ce	0	ppb
30	SW2L01021	Cs	1.526	ppb
31	SW2L01021	Cu	0	ppb
32	SW2L01021	Dy	0	ppb
33	SW2L01021	Er	0	ppb
34	SW2L01021	Eu	0	ppb
35	SW2L01021	Ga	0.231	ppb
36	SW2L01021	Ho	0	ppb
37	SW2L01021	In	0	ppb
38	SW2L01021	Ir	0	ppb
39	SW2L01021	La	0	ppb
40	SW2L01021	Nb	0.008	ppb
41	SW2L01021	Nd	0	ppb
42	SW2L01021	Os	0.276	ppb
43	SW2L01021	Pb	0	ppb
44	SW2L01021	Pd	0	ppb
45	SW2L01021	PO4	0	ppb	low
46	SW2L01021	Pr	0	ppb
47	SW2L01021	Pt	0	ppb
48	SW2L01021	Rb	62.044	ppb
49	SW2L01021	Re	0.019	ppb
50	SW2L01021	Ru	0	ppb
51	SW2L01021	Sb	1.435	ppb
52	SW2L01021	Se	0.375	ppb
53	SW2L01021	Si	653.633	ppb
54	SW2L01021	Sm	0	ppb
55	SW2L01021	Sn	0.352	ppb
56	SW2L01021	Ta	0.031	ppb
57	SW2L01021	Te	0	ppb
58	SW2L01021	Th	0	ppb
59	SW2L01021	Ti	0	ppb
60	SW2L01021	U	0.22	ppb
61	SW2L01021	W	0	ppb
62	SW2L01021	Zr	0	ppb

Just dosing BRS 2 part. RODI is rock solid; I have a TDS meter that connects to multiple points in the system.

My tank really improved when I started carbon dosing while also keeping nitrates around 20 and phos around .2. Everyone seems to be happier. You may have other ultra low issues if your nitrate and phos are that low. May be carbon deficient. Also are you 2 years in with dry rock and sand? You may just be getting to the point where the microbiome is actually stable and established.

Definitely need pics. Do you a lot of coraline algae? None? A little?

Tons of coralline.

I don't understand people like you. You drop thousands of dollars (tens of thousands on this case) on the toys but then don't spend a cent on battery backup or a generator.


You do realize these are animals we are talking about here right?


There's your problem if this has always been the case. Try getting your nutrients up a bit and you will most likely have success. Why as a beginner to SPS would you attempt to ride the razors edge? It's a very old school mindset to bottom out nutrients for acros and it's hard to balance at such an extreme. Pictures of the tank would help too.

Ok, first, we learned from the experience and got a generator, bubbler backups, etc. When I quote spending #’s I want to be clear that I use spending tracking software so I’m including every single $ spent on the aquarium; I think if everyone did this you’d be surprised how much it adds up to. In terms of ULNS it’s not intentional. It’s just how this tank processes nutrients. Our first tank and QT tanks ran high nitrates but then ultimately matured to ULNS as well. The only alternative we have would be to start dosing nitrate. I’m not 100% opposed to the idea, but I’m not convinced that’s the magic bullet either.

For what it’s worth I found my best stability when I simplify my tank and stop touching and tweaking everything. I only test once a month maybe and only dose all for reef. My SPS is growing great. Montipora and digitata are corals EVERYONE can grow. Just toss them in with plenty of light and they will do great.

I feel like we’ve been super patient and hands-off. It’s been 2-3 years now and the problems are the same. I try not to put my hands in the aquarium at all, have armpit length gloves, etc.

If this was my tank, then I would go SPS-less for 1-2 months, and that should starve out any acro or monti eating pests. In that time, I would run the tank at 5-10ppm Nitrate and 0.03-0.10 phosphates, and send out a water sample to aquabiomics to see if there is any pathogens. I would dose some bacteria to get your system stable (especially if you have been using antibiotics in your system). Biodigest, PNS Probio, etc. If it all checks out, after SPS fallow period, I would get a cheap green slimer and digitata frag and test those out for a few months. They are super hardy and affordable, so those will be your tester frags. Do not buy thousands of dollars of SPS until your tester frags are thriving. If the aquabiomics doesn't check out, and show some pathogens, then that's another subject. You will likely have to chemical treat the tank to kill off those pathogens, but will cross that bridge when you get there.

A picture will definitely help. We can see the equipment used and how it is set up. Also check if there is coralline and other signs of a thriving reef or issues to fix.

Good luck! Sorry for the long post, but hopefully this helps a little bit to see what others will do in your situation. And all SPS needs to be dipped and inspected before going into the tank. What kind of dip are you using? And do you run UV or ozone? If you do, how often you run it? I would not run UV or ozone for too long.

I mean it has been SPS-less for a good long while because they all die. I have coral rx and Seachem coral dip (iodine). We’re OCD about QT. Every single fish, coral, and invert goes through a QT process which includes 30 days of copper at least on the fish side; we’ve never seen marine ich! On the coral side everything gets dipped multiple times and QT’d for 76 days minimum. No UV/ozone.

+1 on this. In the past, I’ve gone to extremes trying to solve “problems” in my tank, but oftentimes things would thrive the most when I was more hands-off with things, only maintaining a good dosing schedule. Stability is key, and there is no fast way of achieving it.

I recommend instead of putting more money into it, take it slow. An SPS dominant tank might be the goal, but be happy with the tank you have, not the one you want. Keep your current corals healthy. And, over time, slowly introduce birdsnest, then montipora, and progressively test different species. Each coral has its own requirements, and you may find there are certain corals you can keep easily and others that you cannot keep. For me, I initially could not keep any mushroom corals at all, but after time and patience, I got my tank into a state that allows them to grow. I used to easily grow euphyllia, and now I struggle to keep them happy. Reef keeping is a delicate balance, one that can shift back and forth. What doesn’t work today might eventually thrive tomorrow.

I’d recommend you start with some easy and forgiving SPS. Leptoseris and psammocora both, in my experience, can handle swings in parameters or sudden wipeouts pretty well, and grow rather quickly.

At 2-3 years in and being as hands-off as possible I feel like we’re there. I could not possibly provide more stability than where we’re at. I have the Trident and auto-controlled dosing pumps. People say that stability is really all that matters in terms of parameters. Well, we’ve provided that and all SPS die regardless.

I have a small pico that has been thriving for 3+ years. When I started reefing, people said you can't keep SPS in a small butt tank. Well, you can. It might be harder, but you can. I've killed my share of acros, but it was something I did whether I knew it or not. Early on, lost frags due to immature biome and cooking under too much PAR. More recently, lost chunky grown frags due to something I did, but can't explain. I did a water change and decided to stir up the sand. It must've stirred some bad bacteria into the water column. Water became cloudy and the next morning, the acros were pale and/or had beginnings of STN.

My params are stable. It's not always spot on, but it never deviates from a small range. The sand stirring spiked my PO4. I'm convinced our tanks are filled with things that we don't even know are in there. Every new fish, new coral, new frag plug introduced, introduces a new population of some type of bacteria. All it takes is one minor or major stressor and all hell breaks loose. In my case, maybe elevated PO4 in a super short amount of time.

Up to you if you want to quit, but if it were easy, there'd be more people in the hobby. I think most of us like the challenge (and the punishment) this hobby brings. Don't get me wrong, I'm gutted that my beautiful Homewrecker is struggling to survive. Most of my frags were bought at 1 inch and are now chunky and ready to be glued on the rocks. I thought about just throwing them away and starting over. BUT, their still animals and they're still alive, so I'll nurse them back until they're thriving again, or until they croak.

You shouldn't quit. Best of luck to you.

I’m starting to wonder if there’s some bad bacteria culprit that’s killing things. Are hugely successful tanks just a thing of luck? We’ve tried patience, stability, time, etc. and nothing has worked.

How deep is the sandbed? I had a similar issue until I realized that my sandbed had large pockets of hydrogen sulfide that, when kicked up, would wipe out all my corals and some of my inverts. Wound up removing the sandbed and haven’t had a problem since.

4”

 

[michealprater]

ULNS are certainly fixable, and it is rather easy. That is where I would personally start. Dosing nitrates and phosphates is a drop in the bucket compared to what you have spent. As others have mentioned, start slow and easy with a few bulletproof corals. Make them thrive, then continue to add. I have ORA corals that have made it through tank crashes, they are a great place to start.

 

[twentyleagues]

I've never done an icp but if all things are equal doest Cl stand for chlorine? Or does it refer to something else on an icp?

 

[Seansea]

Some concerns on that icp. Low iodine 0 manganese and the big one 0 phos. 0 phos a no no. This is a big tank how many fish and how often you feed. Corals love fish poo. Gobble it up. I have 16 fish in a 75 and feed twice a day. Heavy in heavy out. Remember these corals have algae in their polyps. Algae needs phos. Mine go as high as .35 and as low as .1 but never keep them below .1

 

[Seansea]

Like others have said also. Get easy sps too start loke stylos, montis and green slimer. Almost bullet proof. If you trying to roll up on walt disneys and pc rainbows out the gate gonna be rough.

 

[Seansea]

I've never done an icp but if all things are equal doest Cl stand for chlorine? Or does it refer to something else on an icp?

Chloride as in nacl. Sodium chloride=salt

 

[sfin52]

Ulns are tough on corals. The Zooxanthellae is a dinoflagellates and needs nitrates and phosphates to reproduce and feed the coral. If you starve the Zooxanthellae you starve the coral. This is my guess on why you have issues.

Also ulns can have a persistent cyano or bad dinoflagellates.

 

[twentyleagues]

Chloride as in nacl. Sodium chloride=salt

hmm shouldnt that be Cl-? Confusing. I kind of figured thats what they would be referring to but just wanted to make sure. Thanks

 

[ariellemermaid]

Here are some pictures of parts of the tank/coral racks. In addition to zoa’s doing fine we also have a feather duster infestation. The birdsnest is now just a dead skeleton.

 

[Sunreefer]

In your case, considering your investment thus far, I would find a mentor and/or someone to come to your place to help bring your tank to grow sps. There are good mentors out there. Look at their tanks and have them take care or give you clear step by step guidance on how to navigate your system. Its the best way for success instead of getting notes here & there. And experimenting on your tank. You can grow beautiful heart-dropping SPS!

 

[KK's Reef]

#2 Sicce Syncra 9.0’s for returns running at 52%. #4 4K gyres running 25-100%. Your guess is as good as mine on the cyano. I’m not sure that it’s as simple as something “causing” it per se. We’re running a 20g coral/invert QT that got the cyano first. In that case it was a high nutrient tank and the cyano would bloom, then die, then come back, rinse and repeat. Lately it too has matured into a ULNS. Anyway, point is, this cyano has survived different tanks and different conditions.

Level
2	SW2L01021	Ca	452.355	ppm
3	SW2L01021	Mg	1449.734	ppm
4	SW2L01021	K	501.84	ppm	high
5	SW2L01021	Cl	22654.265	ppm	high
6	SW2L01021	Na	11304.989	ppm
7	SW2L01021	S	780.555	ppm
8	SW2L01021	Sr	6.85	ppm	low
9	SW2L01021	B	6.683	ppm
10	SW2L01021	Br	73.739	ppm
11	SW2L01021	Co	0	ppb
12	SW2L01021	Cr	0.431	ppb
13	SW2L01021	Fe	3.068	ppb	low
14	SW2L01021	I	10.9	ppb	low
15	SW2L01021	Li	0	ppb	low
16	SW2L01021	Mn	0	ppb	low
17	SW2L01021	P	0	ppb
18	SW2L01021	Mo	25.728	ppb
19	SW2L01021	Ni	0	ppb	low
20	SW2L01021	V	4.204	ppb
21	SW2L01021	Zn	0	ppb	low
22	SW2L01021	Ag	0	ppb
23	SW2L01021	Al	113.512	ppb
24	SW2L01021	As	0.48	ppb
25	SW2L01021	Au	0	ppb
26	SW2L01021	Ba	2.715	ppb
27	SW2L01021	Be	0.005	ppb
28	SW2L01021	Cd	0	ppb
29	SW2L01021	Ce	0	ppb
30	SW2L01021	Cs	1.526	ppb
31	SW2L01021	Cu	0	ppb
32	SW2L01021	Dy	0	ppb
33	SW2L01021	Er	0	ppb
34	SW2L01021	Eu	0	ppb
35	SW2L01021	Ga	0.231	ppb
36	SW2L01021	Ho	0	ppb
37	SW2L01021	In	0	ppb
38	SW2L01021	Ir	0	ppb
39	SW2L01021	La	0	ppb
40	SW2L01021	Nb	0.008	ppb
41	SW2L01021	Nd	0	ppb
42	SW2L01021	Os	0.276	ppb
43	SW2L01021	Pb	0	ppb
44	SW2L01021	Pd	0	ppb
45	SW2L01021	PO4	0	ppb	low
46	SW2L01021	Pr	0	ppb
47	SW2L01021	Pt	0	ppb
48	SW2L01021	Rb	62.044	ppb
49	SW2L01021	Re	0.019	ppb
50	SW2L01021	Ru	0	ppb
51	SW2L01021	Sb	1.435	ppb
52	SW2L01021	Se	0.375	ppb
53	SW2L01021	Si	653.633	ppb
54	SW2L01021	Sm	0	ppb
55	SW2L01021	Sn	0.352	ppb
56	SW2L01021	Ta	0.031	ppb
57	SW2L01021	Te	0	ppb
58	SW2L01021	Th	0	ppb
59	SW2L01021	Ti	0	ppb
60	SW2L01021	U	0.22	ppb
61	SW2L01021	W	0	ppb
62	SW2L01021	Zr	0	ppb

Just dosing BRS 2 part. RODI is rock solid; I have a TDS meter that connects to multiple points in the system.

Tons of coralline.

Ok, first, we learned from the experience and got a generator, bubbler backups, etc. When I quote spending #’s I want to be clear that I use spending tracking software so I’m including every single $ spent on the aquarium; I think if everyone did this you’d be surprised how much it adds up to. In terms of ULNS it’s not intentional. It’s just how this tank processes nutrients. Our first tank and QT tanks ran high nitrates but then ultimately matured to ULNS as well. The only alternative we have would be to start dosing nitrate. I’m not 100% opposed to the idea, but I’m not convinced that’s the magic bullet either.

I feel like we’ve been super patient and hands-off. It’s been 2-3 years now and the problems are the same. I try not to put my hands in the aquarium at all, have armpit length gloves, etc.

I mean it has been SPS-less for a good long while because they all die. I have coral rx and Seachem coral dip (iodine). We’re OCD about QT. Every single fish, coral, and invert goes through a QT process which includes 30 days of copper at least on the fish side; we’ve never seen marine ich! On the coral side everything gets dipped multiple times and QT’d for 76 days minimum. No UV/ozone.

At 2-3 years in and being as hands-off as possible I feel like we’re there. I could not possibly provide more stability than where we’re at. I have the Trident and auto-controlled dosing pumps. People say that stability is really all that matters in terms of parameters. Well, we’ve provided that and all SPS die regardless.

I’m starting to wonder if there’s some bad bacteria culprit that’s killing things. Are hugely successful tanks just a thing of luck? We’ve tried patience, stability, time, etc. and nothing has worked.

4”

I think you should maybe get an Aquabiomics test and see what kind of pathogens are proliferating in your tank. That might shed some light on why your acros are dying.

In my case, my acros are not dead but I know a stress event gave the opportunity to these pathogens to do their damage.

I should probably get a test too at some point. It'll probably lead me to do an in-tank antibiotic treatment, but I'm not ready to go there yet.

 

[Bob Weigant]

Man I've been there and completely understand. I too was on the verge of calling it quits with sps. When I lost every acro I had I sold most of the remaining corals off. Its been almost a year and Im playing with sps again. Might be a good idea to step back and let the tank chill for a bit. Just a thought

 

[Sunreefer]

In your case, considering your investment thus far, I would find a mentor and/or someone to come to your place to help bring your tank to grow sps. There are good mentors out there. Look at their tanks and have them take care or give you clear step by step guidance on how to navigate your system. Its the best way for success instead of getting notes here & there. And experimenting on your tank. You can grow beautiful heart-dropping SPS!

BTW looking at your test numbers they are low. Which test kit did you use? Some are total junk.