Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[MnFish1]

I’ve seen his before and after videos, but they aren’t very well done IMO. You would need better quality video over several days or weeks to be sure it’s working 100%.

We’re testing ampicillin too.

Just curious...do you believe every study you read with 100% certainty?

Of course not nothing is 100%. For example - in the study that was done with the pictures showing the corals exposed to different antibiotics before and after, etc - they only used one specific coral. Does that mean they would get the same results if they used a different type of SPS? I dont know.

That said there is more than one study on this topic - and if you look at the introduction in the studies that start back in the 2000's they reference prior studies - the studies done in 2011 reference the 2000's studies, the 2014 study references the 2011 studies, etc. So there is a basis / history of science that tends to back up each new study - and allow each new study to try to correct potential problems with the ones before it. In each of the studies there is usually a mini-review of why their results are valid (or more valid - or confirm prior research - or disagree with prior research).

In this case - and in your posts I dont see any of this type of thinking. You started out with 'we have the pathogen' - when even the article you posted in the OP says that there is no evidence showing that the several types of ciliates containing zooxanthellae (not just Philaster) were causal in RTN type disease. there have been at least 2 other articles posted clearly analyzing and stating that bacterial infection is the likely starting point for RTN - with ciliates coming later. There is a well written paper that shows that ampicillin and another antibiotic halt RTN - while treating with metronidazole to the point where Philaster is 'undetectable' did NOT stop RTN.

So - It surprises me somewhat that you seem to ignore these other things in favor of a product whose ingredients we dont know, that may be reef safe (with no fish - or not) - we dont know success/failure rates - we dont know if there are long-term negatives etc. BTW - Im not slamming the product - this is the reason I try to use as few of these 'cures' as possible in general

 

[Frogger]

There are 2 questions here: 1. Is Philaster lucinda the 'pathogen' in RTN (as suggested by the OP over and over). Hobbyist testing of this hypothesis to me is impossible.
2. Does Prime Corals product stop RTN? (for whatever reason)? This might be anecdotally tested by using the product - but its somewhat expensive.

Not sure why this is Reefahholic's responsibility to do this scientific research that many here seem to be asking of him. I think it is great that he and some others are stepping up to test a variety of things even if it is not under perfect conditions and even if he has not isolated P. lucinda.
I have no time or desire to do this testing.

 

[MnFish1]

Not sure why this is Reefahholic's responsibility to do this scientific research that many here seem to be asking of him. I think it is great that he and some others are stepping up to test a variety of things even if it is not under perfect conditions and even if he has not isolated P. lucinda.
I have no time or desire to do this testing.

I never meant to suggest that @reefaholic should be doing testing. In fact - I think its nearly impossible to do this type of testing as a hobbyist - except people try it - and anecdotally report what happens. I was responding to people suggesting that hobbyists can test it. Thats why I merely said - if I had RTN - I would treat it as they did in the study - 100 mg/l ampicillin - dosed 2/day for 6 days. Could also do the same thing with the 'prime' product. This is hardly 'scientific research'.

To make myself clear - I think there are 2 questions @reefaholic mentioned. 1. Philaster lucinda is 'the cause of RTN' according to Prime Coral's product information (hobbyists can't study that). the second question - Is it possible to cure/prevent RTN with Prime products (that could be studied by merely having lots of people report their experience with the product - without knowing how or why it was working).

The problem with this is that it could make Prime 'look bad' even it it was really 'good' or it could make it 'look good' even though it may not be a great product. For many different reasons. The best way to get the information would be (IMHO) from the company itself.

No one is piling on @reefaholic - people are questioning him specifically because of his 'zeal' for the product - and also the fact that HE himself is saying 'WE (in Houston) are testing things. All I want is some results - or the methods he is using to 'test' things in Houston.

To me in all honesty - I wish one of the papers mentioned how they induced RTN in the corals they were testing with antibiotics. I rarely see RTN at all - so Im wondering where people are getting coral to 'test'.

 

[jda]

How are your results differing from Dr. Sweet? What are you doing differently than Dr. Sweet. How do you know that you have Philaster? @reefaholic

I am going to predict how this goes...

• going to get a similar statement that Metro does not work despite multiple reports that it does with actual references, review, etc.
• more videos and posts with under dosage or otherwise does not follow the protocol outlined for eradication, or just no details at all
• questions from reefers about methods and who the testers were (similar to the one-time dose video with a half-strength solution already posted)
• crickets for the most part
• might get some circular logic containing false equivalencies, ignoring of contradictory evidence presented (perhaps even some bashing of it), vague references to "Houstonians" and other dodging
• throw in some calls from some reefers to legitimize this as possible without them understanding that we are evaluating the product, not the possibility

Basically, a redo of the last 26 pages.

If people just really care about killing Philaster, then let's take this offline and leave RTN and STN out of it as well as any products on the market. We can start a new thread for this.

 

[MnFish1]

I am going to predict how this goes...

• going to get a similar statement that Metro does not work despite multiple reports that it does with actual references, review, etc.
• more videos and posts with under dosage or otherwise does not follow the protocol outlined for eradication, or just no details at all
• questions from reefers about methods and who the testers were (similar to the one-time dose video with a half-strength solution already posted)
• crickets for the most part
• might get some circular logic containing false equivalencies, ignoring of contradictory evidence presented (perhaps even some bashing of it), vague references to "Houstonians" and other dodging
• throw in some calls from some reefers to legitimize this as possible without them understanding that we are evaluating the product, not the possibility

Basically, a redo of the last 26 pages.

If people just really care about killing Philaster, then let's take this offline and leave RTN and STN out of it as well as any products on the market. We can start a new thread for this.

Yes - I agree - thats why I turned my tone of questions more to 'what is the success/failure rate in actually treating 'RTN' (no matter what the cause) - and is there any photo or video evidence showing the actual curing on an individual coral? and lastly - what long-term potential negatives could occur with this product if it really kills as many things as was suggested?

 

[Reefahholic]

Not sure why this is Reefahholic's responsibility to do this scientific research that many here seem to be asking of him. I think it is great that he and some others are stepping up to test a variety of things even if it is not under perfect conditions and even if he has not isolated P. lucinda.
I have no time or desire to do this testing.

Yep, exactly right.

He wants absolute facts that may never come. You can sit in this forum and beg for information and try to refute everything said here, but have you ever considered buying your own microscope and conducting a few studies of your own? There are many people who have developed products that work without being in a laboratory setting or publishing papers. Yep, products that are making them millions today.

Mnfish1...it’s not my responsibility to provide you with information and honestly it’s not Prime Coral’s responsiblity either. He’s not forcing you to buy his products.

None of us know everything. This pretty clear from all the studies. We’ll learn as we go and we don’t need to sit in a laboratory to figure certain things out. What if the next study and laboratory research takes 20 years to come.? Then what? Shall we sit on a forum and wait for it? Most of these studies haven’t figured out much more than a bunch of stick-head reefers.

Nothing better than several hungry Acropora Junkies hot on the trail!

 

[Reefahholic]

I am going to predict how this goes...

• going to get a similar statement that Metro does not work despite multiple reports that it does with actual references, review, etc.
• more videos and posts with under dosage or otherwise does not follow the protocol outlined for eradication, or just no details at all
• questions from reefers about methods and who the testers were (similar to the one-time dose video with a half-strength solution already posted)
• crickets for the most part
• might get some circular logic containing false equivalencies, ignoring of contradictory evidence presented (perhaps even some bashing of it), vague references to "Houstonians" and other dodging
• throw in some calls from some reefers to legitimize this as possible without them understanding that we are evaluating the product, not the possibility

Basically, a redo of the last 26 pages.

If people just really care about killing Philaster, then let's take this offline and leave RTN and STN out of it as well as any products on the market. We can start a new thread for this.

If you believe that metro works so well...why do you keep coming back here? You’ve found the cure!

 

[jda]

If he wants to champion this, why would he not have to carry some burden? If you want people to believe you over the mass of other evidence, then it is on you.

When I put a method out there to eradicate AEFW in-tank with wormwood, I had to do the legwork to convince people. I was not even selling anything. The mass of successes that came in afterward verified all of this.

 

[Demonic]

honestly it’s not Prime Coral’s responsiblity either. He’s not forcing you to buy his products.

You can't honestly think this. If he is making the claims then that's exactly when he must do. He is claiming to be a scientist, making a claim, and in your eyes walk away without any valid proof.

Seems flawed doesn't it.

 

[sde1500]

One big problem is the whole microscopic part. Two other referenced discoveries, red bugs treatment and bryopsis flucanazole treatment, those are easy to see. Thus easy to test. Dose, watch them die, celebrate. Sometimes it takes a couple rounds. But for this, its nearly impossible for me to reasonably test this and actually confirm it both worked and why. I have a small new frag showing tissue loss, likely RTN, likely going to come home to see it dead today. Will make me sad. Now I could have had some PC dip on hand to test. Maybe it would have worked. But if it didn't, the claim would be "it was already too far gone to work". That is convenient. If it works "see it kills the Philasters and saves your coral", if it doesn't "sorry sounds like the infection was just too far advanced to stop". Meanwhile I have no reasonable method of confirming myself how or what is happening. It could save my coral and it would thrill me, but I also wouldn't use this to then help affirm any claim of what or how it works, because I just don't have that ability.

 

[Reefahholic]

If he wants to champion this, why would he not have to carry some burden? If you want people to believe you over the mass of other evidence, then it is on you.

When I put a method out there to eradicate AEFW in-tank with wormwood, I had to do the legwork to convince people. I was not even selling anything. The mass of successes that came in afterward verified all of this.

I’m not asking anybody to believe me. I have nothing to gain. I just personally think the Philaster L. is the main player in the game.

 

[sde1500]

and honestly it’s not Prime Coral’s responsiblity either

You have to be joking right? He storms on here insulting anyone that doubts him, makes huge claims, and this is your stance? That he doesn't have to back up his monumental discovery with facts? If you aren't joking, and actually serious with this statement, I guess it is time to end this thread. Because why continue discussing something if the claim is the scientist that is claiming the discovery, and marketing the cure product doesn't have to back up his claim with facts and information?

 

[jda]

I found the cure 20 years ago... healthy corals don't need treatments to keep from getting STN and RTN. Period. If you want to take this academic, then start a new thread and I will stay out of it. If you still want to champion this product as a "solution" then I will make sure that people know as much as they can so that they can decide for themselves if it is crap or not. I think that it is important for people to understand that I think that the two are being purposefully blended here to create confusion instead of transparency all in an effort to sell a product.

For sure, the "trust me" part of this is a factor in a significant way.

 

[MnFish1]

He wants absolute facts that may never come. You can sit in this forum and beg for information and try to refute everything said here, but have you ever considered buying your own microscope and conducting a few studies of your own? There are many people who have developed products that work without being in a laboratory setting or publishing papers. Yep, products that are making them millions today.

Mnfish1...it’s not my responsibility to provide you with information and honestly it’s not Prime Coral’s responsiblity either. He’s not forcing you to buy his products.

Sorry - but I think you grossly misquote what I have said, and what I want. I also think youre adding up a lot of posts that others have made and ascribing them all to me which is not correct. But I'll answer your questions only because you asked:

1. No I won't buy a microscope and do tests. First I am not expert enough to know what I am looking at (ie is it Philaster or something else). Second it wouldn't prove anything.
2. The only information I've 'begged' for is 'what is the success failure rate in treating/reversing RTN for this product', 'what are the long-term risks of using the product in the tank?' 'It has been stated that 'the product is not fish safe' but its recommended to be used every 2 weeks. How does that work?'. 'Does the 'dip' injure invertebrates like crabs, clams, etc?'. I also asked you what testing YOU were doing with your friends in Houston to tests these products.

Answers to these questions do not involve any effort on anyone's part if they have developed a product that works. The answers must be known already. Forget whether Philaster is the pathogen or not (that ship sailed pages ago). These questions relate strictly to the USE of the actual product.

You're absolutely correct you dont 'owe' anyone any information. That said - it seems like you are a huge fan of the product - reading the first page of the thread. I guess I assumed that you would be EAGER to share your knowledge about the product that you seem to praise so highly. Ditto for the company.

 

[Reefahholic]

You can't honestly think this. If he is making the claims then that's exactly when he must do. He is claiming to be a scientist, making a claim, and in your eyes walk away without any valid proof.

Seems flawed doesn't it.

Ok, but he really doesn’t. He said you don’t have to buy it. Nobody has to buy it. I haven’t bought it yet.

Let’s assume he’s right and this stuff keeps huge acropora systems from having any RTN/STN or at least controls it. Then what?

Do you think he’s gonna care about doing any further research?

It’s kinda like these UFC fighters...what do you think happens after they make a few million??

Most quit or stop fighting. They dictate who they will fight and when or if they will fight. It’s just the way the world works and sometimes it’s unfair.

 

[Reefahholic]

Sorry - but I think you grossly misquote what I have said, and what I want. I also think youre adding up a lot of posts that others have made and ascribing them all to me which is not correct. But I'll answer your questions only because you asked:

1. No I won't buy a microscope and do tests. First I am not expert enough to know what I am looking at (ie is it Philaster or something else). Second it wouldn't prove anything.
2. The only information I've 'begged' for is 'what is the success failure rate in treating/reversing RTN for this product', 'what are the long-term risks of using the product in the tank?' 'It has been stated that 'the product is not fish safe' but its recommended to be used every 2 weeks. How does that work?'. 'Does the 'dip' injure invertebrates like crabs, clams, etc?'. I also asked you what testing YOU were doing with your friends in Houston to tests these products.

Answers to these questions do not involve any effort on anyone's part if they have developed a product that works. The answers must be known already. Forget whether Philaster is the pathogen or not (that ship sailed pages ago). These questions relate strictly to the USE of the actual product.

You're absolutely correct you dont 'owe' anyone any information. That said - it seems like you are a huge fan of the product - reading the first page of the thread. I guess I assumed that you would be EAGER to share your knowledge about the product that you seem to praise so highly. Ditto for the company.

I think you need to take a break. You’re making a lot of assumptions that just aren’t true.

 

[sde1500]

That said - it seems like you are a huge fan of the product - reading the first page of the thread. I guess I assumed that you would be EAGER to share your knowledge about the product that you seem to praise so highly. Ditto for the company.

I have no clue how he can be such a huge fan, considering the, to me at least, somewhat mind boggling admission below.

He said you don’t have to buy it. Nobody has to buy it. I haven’t bought it yet.

I've never seen someone shill so hard, for something they haven't even used....

 

[Reefahholic]

I found the cure 20 years ago... healthy corals don't need treatments to keep from getting STN and RTN. Period. If you want to take this academic, then start a new thread and I will stay out of it. If you still want to champion this product as a "solution" then I will make sure that people know as much as they can so that they can decide for themselves if it is crap or not. I think that it is important for people to understand that I think that the two are being purposefully blended here to create confusion instead of transparency all in an effort to sell a product.

For sure, the "trust me" part of this is a factor in a significant way.

Then why does this thread interest you so much? You keep coming back and posting.

The thread title says “possible solution.” Make sure you get the facts right.

 

[MnFish1]

Ok, but he really doesn’t. He said you don’t have to buy it. Nobody has to buy it. I haven’t bought it yet.

Maybe im mistaken- I thought you were testing it in Houston. You said you were also testing ampicillin?

Let’s assume he’s right and this stuff keeps huge acropora systems from having any RTN/STN or at least controls it. Then what?

Then he will make a lot of money.

Do you think he’s gonna care about doing any further research?

Well - if he doesn't have statistics as to long-term benefits or risks on reef tanks or coral in general - I hope he will continue to do studies.

I would appreciate if you would read what people are writing and try to understand what they really mean as compared to what you think they mean. Because to me it seems like you dont get the discussion here. If (in your OP (and the first page of the thread)) you had merely said - there is a new product out - that may help RTN - its xxxxx by Prime Coral, everyone would have gone, read the research, etc and decided whether to try it - like 'Revive' or other dip products.

Instead - the OP is full of hyperbole, science that didn't make complete sense and even when it was pointed out (by me) that there was some scientific basis to think that killing the ciliates may be beneficial - you ignore that and continue to criticize people that ask questions. Honestly - it makes it seem (not saying there is) like you have an ulterior motive.

Just this one issue - how can you come to a website recommending a product and not have any data as to how often it works? If what you're saying is we know this kills ciliates - there is no data that it helps RTN - but it might - thats ok too - but at least its an answer.

 

[Reefahholic]

It’s amusing to me how 3-4 people have been bashing this thread from the beginning. It’s clear they aren’t looking for answers.

That is why I haven’t been responding much. It’s pointless. If we’re not going to work together and be civil, then we’re wasting our time. I want to talk about the important details without all the personal attacks or certain people disrespecting others here.

I have no clue how he can be such a huge fan, considering the, to me at least, somewhat mind boggling admission below.

I've never seen someone shill so hard, for something they haven't even used....

ts