Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

Jose Mayo · Mar 7, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Yes - this exactly - when I saw the picture of all of the stuff that came off the 'shipment from vietnam' that prime supposedly killed - I couldn't help wonder about the balance in the tank when so many things are 'dying' - and if this is a product to be used continuously - what does this mean for 'diversity' in the tank.

BTW - if the product is to be used continuously - can one still use carbon? GFO? Skimmer? other types of filtration? Is there any data on this @reefaholic? or @Prime Coral

It was precisely this brutal nonspecific toxicity, including the reference to lesions in the gills of fish, which made me think of the possibility of chloroquine being involved, as the active ingredient of this product Prime Coral ...

jda · Mar 7, 2019

Lowell Lemon said:
But yet by your response you have made the same error as the doctor by claiming no further study is needed because you said so! Sorry but I fail to see the difference but that is because I am ignorant. Look you just mentioned how the two other examples pasted muster and it was by collaboration with others in the hobby or industry. I think I am asking for the same thing here.

I don't think that I ever said that no further study was necessary. I don't recall ever even thinking that.

You are not asking for the same thing... You are asking for people to buy a product with questionable credentials and background to be gunea pigs. Those examples that I gave fit into the landscape organically. They also had proven success cases that themselves, and others, could document and replicate.

You are also asking for more science when people have pointed out science that is forsaken (not by you). Like Jose has said, there are many, many actual studies that point out the opposite of these claims. There was no science to indicate that either red bug nor levamisole would not work.

MnFish1 · Mar 7, 2019

jda said:
I don't think that I ever said that no further study was necessary. I don't recall ever even thinking that.

You are not asking for the same thing... You are asking for people to buy a product with questionable credentials and background to be gunea pigs. Those examples that I gave fit into the landscape organically. They also had proven success cases that themselves, and others, could document and replicate.

You are also asking for more science when people have pointed out science that is forsaken (not by you). Like Jose has said, there are many, many actual studies that point out the opposite of these claims. There was no science to indicate that either red bug nor levamisole would not work.

The science that is 'there' suggests that the OP is incorrect. Its interesting looking into this stuff for sure - but - the evidence is against what the OP is saying. What (I think) everyone here is waiting for is 'new evidence' that the 'science' is incorrect. Or maybe im wrong.

Manny Tavan · Mar 7, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Can you be more specific - ie what kind of coral, what you did, how did it not work, etc.

Monti with MEN still have nubibranch despite multiple dipping in prime which supposedly should kill the eggs if you dip for 7 minutes instead of 5 minutes

Acros that were having issues eventually died

Chalice that was receding looked better for a while and then started to recede again

Followed all the directions.

MnFish1 · Mar 7, 2019

Manny Tavan said:
Monti with MEN still have nubibranch despite multiple dipping in prime which supposedly should kill the eggs if you dip for 7 minutes instead of 5 minutes

Acros that were having issues eventually died

Chalice that was receding looked better for a while and then started to recede again

Followed all the directions.

Thanks. and sorry

Lowell Lemon · Mar 7, 2019

jda said:
I don't think that I ever said that no further study was necessary. I don't recall ever even thinking that.

You are not asking for the same thing... You are asking for people to buy a product with questionable credentials and background to be gunea pigs. Those examples that I gave fit into the landscape organically. They also had proven success cases that themselves, and others, could document and replicate.

You are also asking for more science when people have pointed out science that is forsaken (not by you). Like Jose has said, there are many, many actual studies that point out the opposite of these claims. There was no science to indicate that either red bug nor levamisole would not work.

And to clarify I never asked anyone to buy anything. We are quite clearly writing past each other. YOU strongly implied that it is up to the company to provide irrefutable proof of concept and the science behind it. I responded that more study is necessary and asked who was equipped and willing to do some study on this subject. I never said or implied that someone should buy anything. However people were willing to try for free and for fee the two products you mentioned so what is the difference in your mind?

The only conclusion to any study posted here so far does not rule out either bacteria or ciliated protozoa in fact it mentions the possible causal relationship to either one or the other or both. No one has clearly been to able demonstrate the first domino in the chain or what has precipitated the event of RTN. Perhaps I missed something in the text but that seems consistent with the reading and videos on the subject. So lets be honest and say the jury is still out. I just asked for someone to look at continuing the work to either establish or reject the claims...that is science 101 as you put it. I would gladly (with in reason) pay for some product to be tested by someone with the ability to do so.

So after all the back and fourth we are left with the same questions and no one seems willing to even look to see if it is a solution or not? However, there are lots of opinions that state this or that will not work without actually doing any work. Do you see my point? To get off the dime someone will have to test something or it is all just an academic exercise of my opinion is better than yours. That is not science as you so clearly stated.

MnFish1 · Mar 7, 2019

Lowell Lemon said:
And to clarify I never asked anyone to buy anything. We are quite clearly writing past each other. YOU strongly implied that it is up to the company to provide irrefutable proof of concept and the science behind it. I responded that more study is necessary and asked who was equipped and willing to do some study on this subject. I never said or implied that someone should buy anything. However people were willing to try for free and for fee the two products you mentioned so what is the difference in your mind?

The only conclusion to any study posted here so far does not rule out either bacteria or ciliated protozoa in fact it mentions the possible causal relationship to either one or the other or both. No one has clearly been to able demonstrate the first domino in the chain or what has precipitated the event of RTN. Perhaps I missed something in the text but that seems consistent with the reading and videos on the subject. So lets be honest and say the jury is still out. I just asked for someone to look at continuing the work to either establish or reject the claims...that is science 101 as you put it. I would gladly (with in reason) pay for some product to be tested by someone with the ability to do so.

So after all the back and fourth we are left with the same questions and no one seems willing to even look to see if it is a solution or not? However, there are lots of opinions that state this or that will not work without actually doing any work. Do you see my point? To get off the dime someone will have to test something or it is all just an academic exercise of my opinion is better than yours. That is not science as you so clearly stated.

In my reading of the science - the jury is 'not out'. There is clear evidence that antibiotics that do not kill ciliates stop RTN. There is evidence that antibiotics that kill Philaster 'slow down' but don't stop RTN. There is evidence that Antibiotics that Kill ciliates and Bacteria completely stop RTN.

vis a vis this product - what I haven't seen is any demonstration that it stops RTN. No before or after pictures, no statistics suggesting that it does. only that it kills ciliates. To me this means nothing. The goal is not killing ciliates or worms. The goal is curing RTN. Where is the evidence that this product does that (or prevents it)? In fact it may be a great product to help RTN - but the OP hasn't posted any evidence that I have seen that it does. Have I missed something here?

BigJohnny · Mar 7, 2019

Reefahholic said:
So if you haven't heard...Prime Coral has some impressive videos showing a parasite that's responsible for RTN and others that might be responsible for STN. This guy is from Florida and his name is Dr. Ara Deukmedjian. This Philaster parasite that he's captured on video eating acros sure fits the description of being the RTN culprit for all these years. This thing is very aerodynamic, extremely fast, and the numbers found on the Acropora frags and colonies are staggering. I've owned several microscopes and have never seen anything like it. Maybe I was looking in the wrong places! In his multiple videos, they've literally been caught with their hands in the cookie jar- if you will. Yep...munching away on beautiful acropora colonies, chalices, and other SPS. All of them full of zooxanthellae too! I'll post a video below, but it's very impressive. We'll get into more details later.

There's also a study back from 2014 that links Ciliate communities to coral disease. Yes ICH is one of them! I found this very interesting. Make sure you watch that video as well.

2014 Study found here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1385110115300095

In Houston...we're already hot on the trail doing research and testing. Dr. Deukmedjian does sell a product that is used as a dip. He also has another for in-tank treatment. This has lead many people to become very skeptical, but after you watch the video evidence of these parasites dying, you start to think wow! Trust me though...these videos are incredible! They speak for themselves. Anyway, the in-tank treatment is questionable with fish, but the dip is already working for several people. Psxerholic has been testing and I'm testing now too. Psx has already reported success with his fish. I think he mentioned he did loose one. I'm not sure if that was due to the treatment or what.?

Many more questions to be asked and nobody has all the answers yet which is why we're all working hard to find out more details. I'll link a video below that highlights the best two videos. There's many more on his channel. See the description section on my video for all the information about the products and join us in our search for all the answers and help test with us.

Im curious, how did you discover this product? Before this I had never even heard of prime coral or this product and you were truly "hot on the trail" with a ton of info out the gate.

sde1500 · Mar 7, 2019

BigJohnny said:
Im curious, how did you discover this product? Before this I had never even heard of prime coral or this product and you were truly "hot on the trail" with a ton of info out the gate.

The good Dr has been on the SPS group on Facebook peddling his wares to the Hypebeasts there.

jda · Mar 7, 2019

I don't think that I ever said that I needed irrefutable proof of anything. If so, then that was a mistake. Others have. Just basic logic, reasonable claims and acknowledgement of prior studies and perhaps an explanation of how this differs would be enough - we have not gotten any of this. Nor has there been an ask for help, a peer review, a few trial volunteers, etc. Nothing. This is not coming.

This is a for-profit, finished product. Get off of the fence and have an actual opinon about wether somebody should buy it, or not, AS IS. The plaintiff has presented all of their evidence. You have seen what you are going to see. Everybody wants the answer. You are not going to get it from these guys. What say you? Criticize me all that you want, but I have an idea about what this is, supported it and will stand by it. This is not an academic exercise - money will/won't be spend, tanks and corals will be impacted. No more armchair quarterbacking.

Reefahholic · Mar 7, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Yes - this exactly - when I saw the picture of all of the stuff that came off the 'shipment from vietnam' that prime supposedly killed - I couldn't help wonder about the balance in the tank when so many things are 'dying' - and if this is a product to be used continuously - what does this mean for 'diversity' in the tank.

BTW - if the product is to be used continuously - can one still use carbon? GFO? Skimmer? other types of filtration? Is there any data on this @reefaholic? or @Prime Coral

I do not know yet. We have a lot of people testing the Prime Coral products, but also many other antibiotics as well. We’re also testing other things outside of antibiotic therapy.

I will report back here as we learn more details.

One thing I do want to mention, is that they survived on a dry frag that was in a plastic bag for 20+ hours. LOL.

Other antibiotics tested:

Some medications used have either slowed down or even killed them, but not all are affected. 1 or 2 make it through.

We’re looking for the 100% kill rate!

MnFish1 · Mar 7, 2019

Reefahholic said:
I do not know yet. We have a lot of people testing the Prime Coral products, but also many other antibiotics as well. We’re also testing other things outside of antibiotic therapy.

I will report back here as we learn more details.

One thing I do want to mention, is that they survived on a dry frag that was in a plastic bag for 20+ hours. LOL.

Other antibiotics tested:

Some medications used have either slowed down or even killed them, but not all are affected. 1 or 2 make it through.

We’re looking for the 100% kill rate!

Looking for a 100% kill rate of 'what'?
Ampicillin will not kill Philaster for example. Who is doing the testing - not criticizing - just curious?

I mean - the data is already out there - in published research - which combination of antibiotics will stop RTN. What are you researching?

jda · Mar 7, 2019

^ so still not wanting to explain your affiliation with all of this? This is looking shadier and shadier.

Since you all are still testing, are you going to pull the products off of the website, issue refunds and wait for further results? Shouldn't all of this have been done already?

Demonic · Mar 7, 2019

Reefahholic said:
We have a lot of people testing the Prime Coral products?

We’re looking for the 100% kill rate!

Is this a typo or are you now affiliated with Prime Coral? The word “we” is a part of the team or am I mistaken

Sarah24! · Mar 7, 2019

MnFish1 said:
The goal is curing RTN. Where is the evidence that this product does that (or prevents it)? In fact it may be a great product to help RTN - but the OP hasn't posted any evidence that I have seen that it does. Have I missed something here?

Hello,

The moment has finally come when all of our high school teachers said one day, algebra may cure cancer or (possibly rtn (doubt they knew what that was back then. But ahh that 2009 so maybe lol) perhaps, sure would be nice for both but either one works for me.

Reefahholic · Mar 7, 2019

I’ll say it one more time. Listen carefully. I do not personally know the Doctor. I’m not sponsored by him. Really wish I was so I could test all his products and see for myself. He is as new to me as he is to you guys.

jda said:
^ so still not wanting to explain your affiliation with all of this? This is looking shadier and shadier.

Since you all are still testing, are you going to pull the products off of the website, issue refunds and wait for further results? Shouldn't all of this have been done already?