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Jose Mayo

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Well ...

As previously mentioned, the field studies conducted in the last 5 years, even though they had detected the ciliated protozoan Philaster lucinda, and some of their cousins, in the typical WBS lesions around the world, none of them directly pointed out the Philaster lucinda as the primary cause, but ... just for the love of controversy, suppose yes, be yes ...

Philasterides, in general, are free living ciliate protozoans and also parasitic, heterotrophic, widely distributed in the globe, aerobic and also microaerophilic, capable of living both in the water column and in the benthic zone, in more acidic and more alkaline environments, having for this purpose alternative enzymatic mechanisms that allow it to adapt to these changing circumstances by changes in its metabolism, which gives them great environmental adaptability.

They are also, by some of their representatives, cause of disease in fish of cultivation, being therefore of interest for the aquaculture, for the damages that cause to some species of commercial interest. Disease that, in this activity, is known as Scuticociliatosis, name that derives from the subclass Scuticociliatia Small, 1967, to which belongs the genus Philasteride.

If the focus of interest in RTN control was Philaster lucinda, that would be the kind of enemy we would be facing: a very versatile enemy and prepared to fight.

However, many of the adaptive mechanisms of the Philasterides, which offer them so many alternatives, are archaic, distant in the past from their evolutionary line, when they were derived from the same organisms that derived the plants and, therefore, make them fragile to a therapeutic plane well-conducted, targeting these old structures that are no longer present or are not critical to survival in other animals.

Some drugs that we already have are capable of reaching these targets, to a greater or lesser degree, but they have a narrow therapeutic window, that is, the effective dose to control the disease approaches the dose toxic to the host and, therefore, any error in the dosage can compromise the goal either because it does not work at lower doses or because it compromises the host at higher doses or, in the case of aquaculture, because its use could pose risks to human consumption, and therefore are not allowed in this activity.

I'll continue in another post ...
 

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Again I find myself asking the same question to you all the experts? Who is going to test this? If we are to establish a claim or reject it we must try to reproduce the results over and over again in a controlled lab environment. I am sure only a few of you have access to such equipment and facilities. Again I have no dog in this race and I am clearly not a scientist but I am interested in advancing the hobby and the science. Only repeatable results can establish a claim or reject it. Some people have huge ego's and as a result are unable to colloborate with anyone. I think further inquiry in the form of outside testing is necessary to advance this Dr. claims. Until then we are all circling the airport looking for a place to land.

I did mention the cautionary tale of Dr. Bruce W. Halstead for a reason. He ended up in the tangle of Lailtrile and developed his own cancer cure and ended up in jail for fraud. If I recall a sample of his cure assayed out to be Santa Monica river water. At least that was what the rumble was going around a small community of people who knew him well reported. It was a sad end to an otherwise interesting career.

So who is going to test this for real in a lab situation? Until someone tests this out we are just stating opinions without any supporting facts. Sounds like our political process not science to me lol!

I want to thank @Lasse and @Sarah24! and other professionals for joining the discussion!
 

sde1500

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I think further inquiry in the form of outside testing is necessary to advance this Dr. claims. Until then we are all circling the airport looking for a place to land.
I disagree. Because from what I've seen the Dr hasn't even provided enough evidence of his own to back up his claims. Now I may have missed some of it, but to test claims, the methods have to be put to the test as well. Fuzzy Youtube videos of microscopic organisms that aren't identifiable. No fully detailed methods of his testing. Why would the onus be on others to test claims that he himself hasn't provided enough documentation of?
 

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It is not our jobs to prove or disprove a claim from a company trying to sell a product - if they are truly scientists, this is their jobs. Our jobs are to protect the hobbyist community when those claims are likely to not be accurate, have holes or if caution should be taken.

Again, I mention Dustin who developed a treatment for red bugs as an employee of ORA. His treatment was released to the world, met every test of muster and is now THE staple treatment. ...same with Habib/Salifert and using Levamisole to treat Red Planaria. Again, met every test of muster. One of these was given out free, the other for profit, but both were scrutinized by the community and found solid.

Neither of these had huge amounts of scientific tests, yet also did not claim that they were the only smart people on the planet and that past studies either did not exist, or were wrong. There were no misleading posts or videos that either ignored scientific precedence or applied incorrect dosages. This stuff is being scrutinized and is found wanting...
 

Sarah24!

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Again I find myself asking the same question to you all the experts? Who is going to test this? If we are to establish a claim or reject it we must try to reproduce the results over and over again in a controlled lab environment. I am sure only a few of you have access to such equipment and facilities. Again I have no dog in this race and I am clearly not a scientist but I am interested in advancing the hobby and the science. Only repeatable results can establish a claim or reject it. Some people have huge ego's and as a result are unable to colloborate with anyone. I think further inquiry in the form of outside testing is necessary to advance this Dr. claims. Until then we are all circling the airport looking for a place to land.

I did mention the cautionary tale of Dr. Bruce W. Halstead for a reason. He ended up in the tangle of Lailtrile and developed his own cancer cure and ended up in jail for fraud. If I recall a sample of his cure assayed out to be Santa Monica river water. At least that was what the rumble was going around a small community of people who knew him well reported. It was a sad end to an otherwise interesting career.

So who is going to test this for real in a lab situation? Until someone tests this out we are just stating opinions without any supporting facts. Sounds like our political process not science to me lol!

I want to thank @Lasse and @Sarah24! and other professionals for joining the discussion!

Hello,

Thank you for the kind words and @Lasse i find him as an expert of experts in this field. I also didn’t mention prior before (thought I had) in reference to Dr. Gallo, he was a fantastic scientist and dr, (but the aids controversy was a step back and he has always proven to be a top notch, so I was referencing that one occurrence only, but wanted to make sure others know as well).

In terms of this I or we haven’t even heard from the person and if he has further claims to back his theory. I’m willing to listen but I’m not stupid.
 

TheAngrySeahorse

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Haha what the heck is going on in here...somebody take control. I don’t think this is really the place to be posting links to outside websites that hold no creditbility, and offering goods for sale. Great topic for discussion of course, but I believe the line has been crossed and we waved at it as we passed it...

Besides I think we can all agree based on the detailed photos below of my lab, that I alone was the first to discover these creatures...And I alone possess the one ring to control them (guaranteed all natural and organic)....please send money...


C1DABB1E-4017-41B4-BC46-8907FAA68CC6.jpeg
2B596683-2412-4E98-BCDB-DCC76245F336.jpeg
 

shred5

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How do you test for RTN? You do not know when it will hit.
I once saw the best polyp extension ever on one of my sps and soon after it had lost all its tissue.

Personally I think why so many have seen different things is RTN is not one thing it is multiple and multiple reasons for it.

Personally I think so much is do to stress even in the ocean.. This stress allows things to set in that a coral could normally combat.
Maybe by wiping out the pathogen saves it but it is still a stressed coral. Nothing scientific but common sense.


The reefs farther from land and least visited do the best why?
 

Jose Mayo

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Well ...

As previously mentioned, the field studies conducted in the last 5 years, even though they had detected the ciliated protozoan Philaster lucinda, and some of their cousins, in the typical WBS lesions around the world, none of them directly pointed out the Philaster lucinda as the primary cause, but ... just for the love of controversy, suppose yes, be yes ...

Philasterides, in general, are free living ciliate protozoans and also parasitic, heterotrophic, widely distributed in the globe, aerobic and also microaerophilic, capable of living both in the water column and in the benthic zone, in more acidic and more alkaline environments, having for this purpose alternative enzymatic mechanisms that allow it to adapt to these changing circumstances by changes in its metabolism, which gives them great environmental adaptability.

They are also, by some of their representatives, cause of disease in fish of cultivation, being therefore of interest for the aquaculture, for the damages that cause to some species of commercial interest. Disease that, in this activity, is known as Scuticociliatosis, name that derives from the subclass Scuticociliatia Small, 1967, to which belongs the genus Philasteride.

If the focus of interest in RTN control was Philaster lucinda, that would be the kind of enemy we would be facing: a very versatile enemy and prepared to fight.

However, many of the adaptive mechanisms of the Philasterides, which offer them so many alternatives, are archaic, distant in the past from their evolutionary line, when they were derived from the same organisms that derived the plants and, therefore, make them fragile to a therapeutic plane well-conducted, targeting these old structures that are no longer present or are not critical to survival in other animals.

Some drugs that we already have are capable of reaching these targets, to a greater or lesser degree, but they have a narrow therapeutic window, that is, the effective dose to control the disease approaches the dose toxic to the host and, therefore, any error in the dosage can compromise the goal either because it does not work at lower doses or because it compromises the host at higher doses or, in the case of aquaculture, because its use could pose risks to human consumption, and therefore are not allowed in this activity.

I'll continue in another post ...
Without much detail, to avoid making the posts as useless as they are tiring, ciliates of the genus Philasteride are sensitive to antimalarials, such as chloroquine and artemisinin, which act by the blockade of proton translocating inorganic pyrophosphatase (chloroquine), and a calcium-dependent ATPase (artemisinin), enzymes involved in intracellular pH and calcium homostasis, vital for the survival of the parasite.

Also, under the conditions of the lesion, in which there is great oxygen consumption due to the increased presence of aerobic bacteria and also pH decreased by the increase of CO2, the ciliary Philasteride uses alternative monomeric oxidases present in its mitochondrial membrane, which allow another route to its respiratory chain under microaerophilic conditions. This pathway can be blocked by two other drugs, which are not toxic to animals, such as propilgalate and resveratrol, which cause mitochondrial dysfunction and paralysis of ciliate development, with the advantage that there is no such alternative oxidase in multicellular animals, and is therefore safe for use in aquariums, if the development of an appropriate protocol is obtained.

As a final consideration, in the face of the report that the @Prime Coral product is also capable of achieving vermetid snails, bristle worms and nematodes, I would venture to say that the plant products involved in its composition almost certainly go through the principles derived from Cinchona officinalis (chloroquine is a of them), Vitis vinifera (resveratrol), Camellia sinensis (propylgalate) and Artemisia annua (artemisinin), perhaps associated with some nitroimidazole, for further assurance.

Regards

Source:
https://minerva.usc.es/xmlui/bitstream/10347/13706/1/rep_929.pdf
 
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Do not forgett @Jose Mayo

Sincerely Lasse

Soooooooooooo sorry @Jose Mayo I did not intend to do that many many apologies. Your information that you provided is extremely valuable as well as professional and very candid. I have definitely clicked on your source link. I can say without doubt of any kind that bob is definitely your uncle :) you and @Lasse must have the same uncle lol
 

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Without much detail, to avoid making the posts as useless as they are tiring, ciliates of the genus Phyllasteride are sensitive to antimalarials, such as chloroquine and artemisin, which act by the blockade of proton translocating inorganic pyrophosphatase (chloroquine), and a calcium-dependent ATPase (artemisinin), enzymes involved in intracellular pH and calcium homostasis, vital for the survival of the parasite.

Also, under the conditions of the lesion, in which there is great oxygen consumption due to the increased presence of aerobic bacteria and also pH decreased by the increase of CO2, the ciliary Philasteride uses alternative monomeric oxidases present in its mitochondrial membrane, which allow another route to its respiratory chain under microaerophilic conditions. This pathway can be blocked by two other drugs, which are not toxic to animals, such as propigalate and resveratrol, which cause mitochondrial dysfunction and paralysis of ciliate development, with the advantage that there is no such alternative oxidase in multicellular animals, and is therefore safe for use in aquariums if the development of an appropriate protocol is obtained.

As a final consideration, in the face of the report that the Prime Coral product is also capable of achieving vermetid snails, bristle worms and nematodes, I would venture to say that the plant products involved in its composition almost certainly go through the principles derived from Cinchona officinalis (chloroquine is a of them), Vitis vinifera (resveratrol), Camellia sinensis (propylgalate) and Artemisia annua (artemisinin), perhaps associated with some nitroimidazole, for further assurance.

Regards

Thank you - this is exactly what’s needed to explain a product. I have two questions however - how species specific is these treatments. There are bacteria that can use anaerobic respiration and at least some freshwater fishes (as the crucian carp) - probably there is some saltwater fishes too. If Ciliates is basically bacteria feeders - what happen with the ecosystem in my aquaria if one important bacteria predator will be wiped out. Why can you stop a outbreak (at least with brown jelly disease) just with take away the attacked colony – not kill the ciliate?

Let us see if we can get an ecological discussion as an alternative to the most common solution of all problems - let nuke them. :)

Sincerely Lasse
 

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Thank you - this is exactly what’s needed to explain a product. I have two questions however - how species specific is these treatments. There are bacteria that can use anaerobic respiration and at least some freshwater fishes (as the crucian carp) - probably there is some saltwater fishes too. If Ciliates is basically bacteria feeders - what happen with the ecosystem in my aquaria if one important bacteria predator will be wiped out. Why can you stop a outbreak (at least with brown jelly disease) just with take away the attacked colony – not kill the ciliate?

Let us see if we can get an ecological discussion as an alternative to the most common solution of all problems - let nuke them. :)

Sincerely Lasse
Within an ecological line, and considering a central role of the Philaster lucinda in the WBD pathogenesis, perhaps the most appropriate approximation is with the anti-oxidants propylgalate (found in green tea) and resveratrol (found in grape seeds). They act more as protozoariostatics, rather than protozoaricides, such as chloroquine and artemisinin and, in addition to protozoariostatics, also have known anti-inflammatory effects, which may favor the recovery of damaged coral tissues.

Regards
 

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It is not our jobs to prove or disprove a claim from a company trying to sell a product - if they are truly scientists, this is their jobs. Our jobs are to protect the hobbyist community when those claims are likely to not be accurate, have holes or if caution should be taken.

Again, I mention Dustin who developed a treatment for red bugs as an employee of ORA. His treatment was released to the world, met every test of muster and is now THE staple treatment. ...same with Habib/Salifert and using Levamisole to treat Red Planaria. Again, met every test of muster. One of these was given out free, the other for profit, but both were scrutinized by the community and found solid.

Neither of these had huge amounts of scientific tests, yet also did not claim that they were the only smart people on the planet and that past studies either did not exist, or were wrong. There were no misleading posts or videos that either ignored scientific precedence or applied incorrect dosages. This stuff is being scrutinized and is found wanting...

But yet by your response you have made the same error as the doctor by claiming no further study is needed because you said so! Sorry but I fail to see the difference but that is because I am ignorant. Look you just mentioned how the two other examples pasted muster and it was by collaboration with others in the hobby or industry. I think I am asking for the same thing here.
 

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Let us see if we can get an ecological discussion as an alternative to the most common solution of all problems - let nuke them
I´m sorry - this can be misunderstood - I meant - it looks like the most normal responses to different problems is - let nuke the problems. Or with other words - use the Big Bertha in order to kill a mosquito :)

Sincerely Lasse
 

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But yet by your response you have made the same error as the doctor by claiming no further study is needed because you said so! Sorry but I fail to see the difference but that is because I am ignorant. Look you just mentioned how the two other examples pasted muster and it was by collaboration with others in the hobby or industry. I think I am asking for the same thing here.

Luck for everyone here I was gone last PM:).. Just caught up on all the comments.

Is there anyone here that disagrees with the following:

1. Ciliates (Philaster and some others probably) are present at the site of nearly all cases of RTN/White band disease. (that's been shown since at least 2014) - in at least the study (obviously they could not sample EVERY existing case of RTN.
2. Philaster is a facultative parasite. It does not REQUIRE a host - but can also live on detritus, etc. It is probably living in all of our tanks - and on every piece of life we bring into our tanks)
3. There are many many examples of RTN occurring after what people consider small changes (an alk swing, a temp swing, stress, etc) - except there are also multiple times when people have had power failures, temp drops, increases - and there is no RTN. Do these things really cause RTN? or is it just a coincidence? Of course changes can lower resistance - but many times things happen in our tanks and coral doesn't RTN. (ie people notice RTN - and then say - oh it must have been because my alkalinity rose/dropped 2 days ago?
4. Someone posted that many studies have not found bacteria in the sites of RTN - I dont believe that this is the case. In fact - the most recent study showed that every case had multiple bacteria present. The most important evidence that bacteria is the primary problem is that treatment with antibiotics stops RTN. Treatment with anti ciliate medication does not stop it - but merely slows it down.
5. There is no way a 'hobbyist' could do this type of research - In fact the reason Sweet's study used the 'antibiotic treatment' approach to prove that bacteria were the case is that it is so difficult to get 'pure' cultures of ciliates and bacteria free coral (they reviewed all of the prior research and found this was a major problem).
6. Prime products may work. There is no evidence presented that they don't - there is no evidence presented that they do. (except the video where ciliates are killed) - I still haven't seen videos before and after showing that the products improve/cure/stop RTN (with these products) (and I wonder why).
7. Im concerned that this product is going to kill lots of things in the tank besides 'Philaster' - and Im not sure this is going to be beneficial. I wish there was some data presented on the use (and as I said before) the success failure rates at actually fixing the problem. I could take a video dipping coral in gasoline - and it would kill the worms, ciliates, etc - but it would also kill the coral.
8. My take home message after reading all of this is - if you start seeing RTN - immediately frag off the healthy piece and remove the dying piece. I have tended to just leave it in the tank - 'hoping' it will get better. From now on I will be more active a pruning away a problem 'limb' of coral. Additionally - I would consider ampicillin if fragging wasn't possible.
 

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Thank you - this is exactly what’s needed to explain a product. I have two questions however - how species specific is these treatments. There are bacteria that can use anaerobic respiration and at least some freshwater fishes (as the crucian carp) - probably there is some saltwater fishes too. If Ciliates is basically bacteria feeders - what happen with the ecosystem in my aquaria if one important bacteria predator will be wiped out. Why can you stop a outbreak (at least with brown jelly disease) just with take away the attacked colony – not kill the ciliate?

Let us see if we can get an ecological discussion as an alternative to the most common solution of all problems - let nuke them. :)

Sincerely Lasse
Yes - this exactly - when I saw the picture of all of the stuff that came off the 'shipment from vietnam' that prime supposedly killed - I couldn't help wonder about the balance in the tank when so many things are 'dying' - and if this is a product to be used continuously - what does this mean for 'diversity' in the tank.

BTW - if the product is to be used continuously - can one still use carbon? GFO? Skimmer? other types of filtration? Is there any data on this @reefaholic? or @Prime Coral
 
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