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Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?
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MnFish1
10K Club member
All good
MnFish1
10K Club member
I give the videos prove - you have the solution to RTN. Other science be danged lol
. You have it- I for one congratulate you. Its not worth discussing further.
. You have it- I for one congratulate you. Its not worth discussing further.
MnFish1
10K Club member
Actually the video is interesting - but - it certainly doesn't say 'these parasites aren't affected 'one bit'. There is the concept of the LD 50, etc - not every parasite will be killed with a certain dose. Im curious how do you know that what you're filming is philter lucinda?
Nice videos, but ... facing logic, if ampicillin and paromomycin have no effect on the protozoan Philaster lucinda and yet they can stop the RTN process, how can one say that Philaster lucinda is the key pathogen of process?
Regards
PS: Unfortunately there is a clear contradiction between what the inventor of the product claims and what the fieldwork of various scientists suggests ... I do not think there is any benefit to persist in a byzantine discussion. It's time for real testing and validation, or not.
Regards
Regards
PS: Unfortunately there is a clear contradiction between what the inventor of the product claims and what the fieldwork of various scientists suggests ... I do not think there is any benefit to persist in a byzantine discussion. It's time for real testing and validation, or not.
Regards
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Sarah24!
2500 Club Member
Hello,
In the sake of professionalism, you kinda remind me of dr Robert Gallo, who claimed he was the first person to discover the AIDS virus, except the French actually did. (As a point of fact Dr Gallo’s lab sample was the exact same sample from the French team). Even with Dr Gallo, who did find the human retrovirus htlv, he didn’t discover Aids, he contributed to it along with the French and help from the cdc and Dr Don France. Once Dr Gallo, was made aware of this, he could not even keep the host cells alive. I am curious, on if you collaborated this entire thing on your own, or if you used other years of research by other scientific teams? If so did you collaborate with them, then your not the one who just came up with it. I have never met a scientist or medical professional that has done something this magnitude with out any mistakes. You just like that knew exactly what substances to use and the amount to use where the active ingredient was effective? How long has it taken pharmaceutical companies to come up with something that works (how about the drug AZT for starters?)
Now where am I going with this? If this discovery works as you say it does, where are the scientific reviews? Why is it on a forum, before its reviewed by top scientific minds that are trying to save the barrier reefs from extinction? Plus Something this important (saving sps colonies in risk of extinction being saved definitely would have hit the news.
Oh and in case your wondering both of these require a host to survive. (.yes they are different bugs, but it’s all about bugs bugs).
Sps corals are sensitive simple organisms, and several things have shown them to stress and die. One is temp, water parameters, stinging from other sps colonies, too much or little of one thing its endless. Is it more than safe to say that there are several causes that can make an sps colony rtn? In addition, how does this bug come in contact with a closed system? If we start our tanks out new, and of course they will be fallow, there is nothing to host on. After so many months etc we add sps colony (dominate to make it easy). We order like some do from shops, frag swaps whatever. So if it’s not in their system, how does it become introduced into another. (How does it become initially infected, is there an incubation period? If the person who sold said frag to another, wouldn’t they have it also? I have had at one point sps rtn in 8 hours. One colony died, but that one colony was in the middle of six other sps colonies? Your hypothesis doesn’t even hold up because the reason that colony rtn, was because it was in direct line of my return pump outlet where I dose. I simply moved the nozzle higher and put another sps frag there, and it’s now a colony (smaller colony lol). Where did the bugs go? There was plenty of sps for them to feast on. I had two other rtn because my alk had a swing, my salinity went off track honestly pick an option. In your statements are you stating that afew will not cause any sps colonies to rtn? Can you elaborate since you stated your method is the definitive reason rtn takes place on sps colonies and you created the cure? Afew will cause sps colonies to rtn and you can actually the bite marks.
Yes you show them under a microscope, did you take a second test sample and dip it in acropower, Bayer whatever to see if they were knocked off as well. Where are the videos of the test sample, placebo, and secondary test sample of other dips? What is your field level on this parasite and can you conclusively beyond doubt this is in fact what you saw under your scope? Did you have a second opinion, if so who? Did you get your test sample from someone and if so who, and did they verify beyond doubt this was in fact your bug?
As a person of medicine myself and in marine biology and micro biology, you have some pretty substantial gaps and holes in what your claiming. I’m not saying your not on the correct path, not saying you have not worked hard, but something of this proportion surely would be in scientific journal and being reviewed by your peers and a separate team given the chance to reproduce the test sample.
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I´m reading through the thread now - I´m sorry I have missed it but this need a fast comment
If there is no one lighting the fuse - you will have no explosion at all.
Sincerely Lasse
I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but this forced my hand.
You are NOT a scientist sir. Unless you hold a PhD and you are actually published in a respected, peer reviewed journal, you are not a scientist. Show me your published articles and I'll stand corrected. You are a clinician (assuming you really are a neurosurgeon) and perhaps you've done clinical research in your career?, but even then, you shouldn't go around calling yourself a scientist. This website you set up is not proof of being a scientist in any way.
Furthermore, to come on here and claim you don't care about money and then state you're just trying to help corals and the hobby is total BS. A real scientist would be working to set up experiments that could be published in journals and shared with others who could also test your theories. A scientist doesn't create a secret blend of "natural ingredients" and try to sell them for $50/oz to unsuspecting people. Real science would involve carefully testing each ingredient in controlled experiments that could again be published and replicated by others. You would be providing proper references for each and every sentence you write and it would take years to do correctly (not a few months as you have documented). Other scientists and journals would be behind you the whole way testing and critiquing your findings and sharing the knowledge with others in the field. Everyone on here should understand that there is no real science being done on his website. I can promise you if you shared his website with actual researchers, they would be laughing (and probably pretty irritated). He knows this. He is simply trying to make a quick buck off of people who don't know any better.
I am a physician as well and it disturbs me that you are going around telling people that you are "the only scientist in the world" to have proven anything. Your medical training should have taught you more respect for the scientific process than that. Perhaps you weren't paying attention in class that day?
Still reading but can´t get this passing without a comment - this was the rudest attack on the science society I have seen for a while.
Sincerely Lasse
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
I couldn't agree with you more. This isn't the way to advance science.
Flippers4pups
Fins up since 1993
Yes, empirical testing is done with controls. This is the way it's been done since the dawn of science and research. Unfortunately the doctor is above that.
OP
OP
Just showing what he’s already tried for those who are testing and trying to crack the code:
I agree with this
I have had rather many frogspawns that develop brown yellow disease – a disease that been connected with Philaster spp . I have no doubt that you can find Philaster in these events – not at all - and in large number. But is it the cause of this or is it a secondary infection? My standard method is to take away the affected part as soon as possible and if I have done it fast enough – the rest of the heads will manage without any attacks. Hence – I will see the Philaster as a secondary pathogen – something else is the cause that make it to multiply very fast and that the amount of Philaster become so high that they will be a stress factor by their self. Just taking away a head will not take away all Philaster – there will be rather much around the coral but not enough of the to create a self-playing piano. The coral deal with it by itself.
The knowledge about human diseases caused by microorganisms is slowly changing and point against that the diseases is not primary caused by the actual microorganism but more or less depended of other factors – like stress – that give the microorganism a chance to establish a monoculture and with the high numbers present (after a while) - it will be a stress factor by itself
Hence – maybe this secret formula will kill the agent when it is established but prophylactic treatment – not a chance that I will buy that. People that follow me will see that I have the same point of view according to fish diseases.
However. my most important objection is that we do not know the content or the mechanisms of action. I want to know the content (hence I can figure out the mechanisms of action) or at least “secret fluid nr 1” works by hinder the enzyme x in the Philaster metabolism. This enzyme is endemic in Philaster. (or something like these two sentences). If you do not know that – you will – as we say in Sweden – “buy the pig in the sack”
That the Dip have a shelf life and have to bee in a refrigator says me that this is some type of organics and that will have me to think.
True - and that include the own findings too
Sincerely Lasse
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I have promise myself not to discuss prices of products, but this is insane. I can by a new small car for the price of 10 litres of one of the products – and then I get a 7 years guarantee (if I buy the right brand) and a full specification.
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
https://primecoral.com/index.php/prime-coral-certified-vendor/
Its all a huge marketing scheme. Create buzz, invent a new dip that people buy into enough, then start signing up vendors. Of course vendors have to use your product continuously, thus creating a nice stream of income. Actually, this leads me to more questions. Say I set up a brand new, closed system. Bring in a ton of wild, mari, and aquacultured corals. Extensively dip and quarantine them to remove pests, including using Prime to kill Philasters. After months of exhaustive QT procedures, all corals are moved to my culture system. Why do I need to continue to use Prime Coral dip, as required to be "Prime coral certified"? If this kills the cause of RTN and STN, why do I need to keep buying it?
Also, say I do have an RTN outbreak, whats the point of the 50-100 micro filter sock, that can't be small enough to catch these things?
Its all a huge marketing scheme. Create buzz, invent a new dip that people buy into enough, then start signing up vendors. Of course vendors have to use your product continuously, thus creating a nice stream of income. Actually, this leads me to more questions. Say I set up a brand new, closed system. Bring in a ton of wild, mari, and aquacultured corals. Extensively dip and quarantine them to remove pests, including using Prime to kill Philasters. After months of exhaustive QT procedures, all corals are moved to my culture system. Why do I need to continue to use Prime Coral dip, as required to be "Prime coral certified"? If this kills the cause of RTN and STN, why do I need to keep buying it?
Also, say I do have an RTN outbreak, whats the point of the 50-100 micro filter sock, that can't be small enough to catch these things?
Demonic
Love Change
I mentioned this earlier. For the cost of the product, it would be cheaper to just keep buying corals. The price is insane. But I still wonder about the ones creating the buzz. There are a couple that just keep advertising over and over, and it just makes me curious. Are they paid, or are they same person, or real customers who just want to believe. That sure is an expensive adventure to buy into and unproven product.
CJS80
Active Member
Although this study was aimed at identifying the diversity of bacteria and ciliates associated with these coral diseases, and disease causation cannot be tested using a purely culture‐independent approach, the observations lead us to propose two alternative hypotheses for causation of BrB/PWS. (i) Bacteria are the primary causal agents, invading healthy tissue and leading to an impaired physiological condition that allows ciliate communities to invade and proliferate at the lesion boundary, consuming health‐compromised coral tissues. In this instance, two candidate bacterial pathogens were seen to increase in the apparently healthy tissues in advance of the disease lesion: Arcobacter sp. (JF831360) and Aeromonas sp. (JN406293). Due to the lack of consistency among samples and lower levels of upregulation of other bacterial pathogens (e.g. V. harveyi, Glycomyces sp., Pseudoalteromonas sp., Shewanella sp. and Marinobacter sp.), we propose that these are more likely secondary invaders of dead and decaying tissues following pathogenesis. Alternatively, (ii) ciliates are the causal agents and the bacterial agents identified are either pathogens that infect the host after it becomes physiologically stressed as a result of ciliate pathogenesis, or opportunistic heterotrophs invading dead and decomposing tissues. This latter hypothesis is supported by the observation that ciliates are completely absent from healthy coral and by previous studies (Ainsworth et al., 2007; Work and Aeby, 2011) which have not detected significant bacterial populations in the apparently healthy tissues at the advancing lesion edge. Work and Aeby (2011) particularly point out a lack of evidence for ‘bacterial‐induced necrosis’ in the WS pathology. Under either of these hypotheses, while bacteria may represent a systemic infection, the ciliate communities reported in this study appear to be responsible for the characteristic visible signs of PWS/BrB, namely a rapidly advancing white band of denuded skeleton.
Here is the 2 hypotheses from this article https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1462-2920.2012.02746.x
The Dr. here believes the the 2nd is correct. Is he wrong or correct? I do not know, and have no means to prove it either way. I will say that yes he has made some pretty bold claims without a full scientific study to back it up. The price of the treatment is pretty high, but if it does indeed work the price maybe justifiable. Personally I will not use a product until it has been thoroughly tested by others.
Here is the 2 hypotheses from this article https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1462-2920.2012.02746.x
The Dr. here believes the the 2nd is correct. Is he wrong or correct? I do not know, and have no means to prove it either way. I will say that yes he has made some pretty bold claims without a full scientific study to back it up. The price of the treatment is pretty high, but if it does indeed work the price maybe justifiable. Personally I will not use a product until it has been thoroughly tested by others.
Lowell Lemon
2500 Club Member
Agreed 100%.
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