Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

Jose Mayo · Mar 5, 2019

Flippers4pups said:
Jose,

From what Ive read in all current study white papers is that bacteria are the culprit. Based on the anecdotal reports from hobbyist on fragging infected RTN coral would back up the white papers on bacteria, not ciliates as the cause.

The Dr's claims and video of eradicating the ciliates is on the surface factual, but what's not explained or shown on the videos is whether or not the RTN event stopped completely. This is where I "squint".

Yes, for that reason I have the secret hope that the shotgun is hitting a target beyond the sight of the shooter, which shoots at what he sees, but kills what he does not see ... which would be a great result, if it were confirmed.

Regards

Lowell Lemon · Mar 5, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Im not sure it did - I did try to read it - I thought it was a quote from the same article I had already read - can you point me to that post. BTW - the question everyone here should have been asking (IMHO) - is 'what is the success rate of this treatment' - and prove that. Showing ciliates eating a very small piece of coral shows very little (again in my opinion - and I'm not a marine microbiologist)

Post #349 last paragraph.

MnFish1 · Mar 5, 2019

Jose Mayo said:
Well ...

From my first post on this topic, my doubt was the patent contradiction in attributing the responsibility, by RTN, to the protozoan Philaster lucinda when, in all the work on this subject that I had read, and especially in experimental work with antibiotics (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4083779/), which I had already brought to your appreciation, that even after the eradication of the Philaster lucinda from the environment with metronidazole, RTN progressed.

In this same paper, quoted by at least 15 other authors so far (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4083779/citedby/), the same authors note that RTN could be interrupted by 2 antibiotics, one of them experimental and of high cost and the other the ampicillin that, although it did not include in its action spectrum the mentioned protozoans, was in itself capable of interrupting the progress of RTN.

Therefore, based on these observations and considering the nosological conditions reported in this same experiment, it does not seem acceptable to me that the Philaster lucinda is the cause or even the pillar of support for the RTN event, although it may be a beneficiary and a strong collaborator in the speed of its progress.

That said, if the product @Prime Coral is indeed capable of delivering what its idealizer promises, what is clear is that it must have other effects beyond the control or eradication of the Philaster lucinda, which, certainly, deserves more studies to elucidate how it works, and, even if it deserves, I would not hesitate to use it if I were surprised by this type of event (WBD) in my aquarium.

Regards

This

MnFish1 · Mar 5, 2019

Scott Campbell said:
But the RTN can stop progressing without antibiotics. Not everyone uses antibiotics and not everyone loses all of their coral. I certainly did not use any antibiotics. That said - a working theory that (to me) seems consistent with the data is that:
1) It may require a very large zone of damage for a small amount of ciliates to control the progression
2) It may require a much smaller zone of damage for a large amount of ciliates to control the progression
3) It may require antibiotics to stop the progression on a single piece of coral

But I do find the progression of the disease baffling. For me it was a perfect spherical orb of destruction. A coral with a single branch within the orb lost that one branch but no other damage. A coral with a single branch outside the orb completely died except for that one branch. From above the tank it looked like one of those "alien" crop circles. Actually rather beautiful in the symmetry. Like someone took a school compass and drew a perfect circle of death through a swath of different corals. I should have taken pictures but honestly I was too sad.

So I have no clue how the progression occurs but I am still inclined to think the ciliates / maggots are helpful. And that a large reserve of ciliates might be better than a more sterile environment.

Thus it can also be stopped by other additions - without mentioning specifics.

MnFish1 · Mar 5, 2019

Jose Mayo said:
Yes, for that reason I have the secret hope that the shotgun is hitting a target beyond the sight of the shooter, which shoots at what he sees, but kills what he does not see ... which would be a great result, if it were confirmed.

Regards

This makes sense completely.

jda · Mar 5, 2019

Anybody who thinks that the Dr was treated unfairly should look no further than Jose for an example of how to be professional and act like an authority. Although he is not selling anything, I would buy something from him.

chris85 · Mar 5, 2019

Frogger said:
This is a solid theory and could be possible. Next step in the process is proving your theory. If you can show that the disease progresses in the absence of Philaster lucinda that would help. There is some previous research using metronidazole that seems to suggest that. I am not sure it has gone far enough. What if the P lucinda actually starts the decline and the bacterial counterpart takes over once it has started or P. lucinda is actually a vector.
The next step after that could be to prove that RTN can begin on corals (in a non stressed environment) in the absence of Philaster lucinda. The final step may be to isolate the actual pathogen if it is not the ciliates in all cases.

Unfortunately all this research takes time and money. I do not see anyone stepping up to volunteer to do this research.

According to Dr. Deukmedjian (Prime Coral) he has already proven his theory. I think what I am seeking is validation to his research.

One day maybe

I have a ton on my plate as it is!!

It has already been proven, just no 100% statements in the publications.

Bacteria are so hard to cultivate... only a handful have ever been processed.

MnFish1 · Mar 5, 2019

chris85 said:
One day maybe I have a ton on my plate as it is!!

It has already been proven, just no 100% statements in the publications.

Bacteria are so hard to cultivate... only a handful have ever been processed.

Can you translate this into English? You im sure know what you mean.......... Most possibly do not. Most are probably afraid or dont care to ask?

Thales · Mar 5, 2019

Flippers4pups said:
I'm squinting at all of this like Richard Ross would.

I was thrilled to read this thread and see all the people already squinting!

MnFish1 · Mar 5, 2019

Thales said:
I was thrilled to read this thread and see all the people already squinting!

I was going to use a word starting with b and ending with d...... but I thought you might misunderstand - and besides ....

chris85 · Mar 6, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Can you translate this into English? You im sure know what you mean.......... Most possibly do not. Most are probably afraid or dont care to ask?

No English here only cajun!! But I will try.

Basically there isn't one thing at play(think of the nitrogen cycle) This thing poops and that thing uses it for a food source which then makes food for something else and so on.

It has been stated in the publication there were numerous things found in all the samples and as they eliminated different species, the way the disease was spreading changed.

sde1500 · Mar 6, 2019

Certainly has been an interesting read thus far. Unfortunately I have a feeling we won’t have our questions answered in this thread, or anywhere. Saw this picture pop up on the SPS Facebook page yesterday, not a clear picture at all, one I wouldn’t use for any set in stone diagnoses. Yet the Dr was there saying it definitely was RTN by the RTN bug.

Reefahholic · Mar 6, 2019

Prime Coral Dip victims from recent Vietnam shipment.

Photo Credit: Scot Maust

jda · Mar 6, 2019

^ for anybody who does not know, these worms are not anything that was previously discussed on this thread. This must be some sort of new advertising. CoralRx, Bayer, Revive, etc. would have killed any of these too, IME.

Edit: we are having a hard enough time staying on course. Can we please not shift the narrative?

MnFish1 · Mar 6, 2019

Here is a question. when you break off a piece of coral (or touch it while fragging) - assumedly - that coral is 'damaged'. If ciliates are a primary pathogen in RTN - and damaged coral is sending some kind of 'signal' to ciliates that cause them to 'attack' - why doesnt every coral breakage end in RTN? (if the organisms are present in every tank - as they are supposed to be?).

Frogger · Mar 6, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Here is a question. when you break off a piece of coral (or touch it while fragging) - assumedly - that coral is 'damaged'. If ciliates are a primary pathogen in RTN - and damaged coral is sending some kind of 'signal' to ciliates that cause them to 'attack' - why doesnt every coral breakage end in RTN? (if the organisms are present in every tank - as they are supposed to be?).

Your answer my friend is the disease triangle. You need the pathogen, a susceptible host and a favourable environment. The reason not all corals get infected is likely either the host, the environment or a combination of both are not cooperating with the pathogen.

MnFish1 · Mar 6, 2019

Frogger said:
Your answer my friend is the disease triangle. You need the pathogen, a susceptible host and a favourable environment. The reason not all corals get infected is likely either the host, the environment or a combination of both are not cooperating with the pathogen.

Yes I know. But it goes against the thesis of the op. It was kind of a rhetorical question