Kh problems

[Ctovarg]

Ive been having problems keeping my kh stable i see it jump all over the place and i feel like it gets drained more then evrything else. Can anyone give me advice on what to do i am pretty new to reefing and dont want to wait until something goes wrong. In the pictures are my current parameters taken today a chart of my kh to see fluctuations and a look at my tank for reference. It is a red sea reefer 170 total water volume is 44 gallons including sump ask any questions and i will try my best to answer, i currently dose all for reef about 9ml per day split up into 2 times but like i said its harder to keep alk. Thank you evryone

 

[ReefingDreams]

Your stocking is pretty insane for that size tank. But you're not asking that.

What are you using to test? Have you consistently been doing the 9ml daily dosing of AFR for the whole duration of the graph? Have you done water changes on any of those days? If so, what salt? Are you dosing anything else?

 

[Ctovarg]

Your stocking is pretty insane for that size tank. But you're not asking that.

What are you using to test? Have you consistently been doing the 9ml daily dosing of AFR for the whole duration of the graph? Have you done water changes on any of those days? If so, what salt? Are you dosing anything else?

Yes it is very stocked. I test with hanna testers for evrything except calcium i use salifert. Yes i have been consistent except for the big drop in kh was becausei wanted to test ho much it went down by everyday. I do water changes every Sunday and just did one yesterday. Only other things i dose are ab+ phyto and rotifiers salt i use is red sea coral pro

 

[ReefingDreams]

Yes it is very stocked. I test with hanna testers for evrything except calcium i use salifert. Yes i have been consistent except for the big drop in kh was becausei wanted to test ho much it went down by everyday. I do water changes every Sunday and just did one yesterday. Only other things i dose are ab+ phyto and rotifiers salt i use is red sea coral pro

Coral Pro has super high alk, so that will spike you high after a water change. I'd recommend switching to their Reef Salt that is likely closer to the parameters you want to run and just rely on the AFR for your supplementation. You can dose all 9ml of your AFR at one time - no need to split it into two doses. The alk isn't ommediately available when you dose that product, it has to be broken down by bacteria to see an increase in alk. This is a pretty slow process. If you get into really high doses of AFR, then consider a doser.

 

[RockBox13]

There are some people here who don’t understand that Alkalinity is not a singular thing. This also leads them to believe that a dKH of 10-12 or a pH above 8.1 will result in some kind of burning of corals tips or STN from the bottom up. This is because they want natural seawater levels, they don’t understand the 2 halves of alkalinity and they are influenced by low pH and KH that exists in most of the best reef aquariums in the world. The difference lies in the fact that those aquariums use calcium reactors almost as a rule because their usage rate of alkalinity and mistakenly not calcium is so high that it becomes expensive and difficult to maintain alkaline stability without a reactor. Even an KH controller with a doser is expensive. A tank of CO2 might last you 6 months to a year in most cases. The low pH and KH those elite reef tanks have is a result of the CO2 bubbling through a reactor creates a pH of about 6.5 to dissolve the media and the effluent put back into the tank is 6.5 as well. The effluent is much higher in carbonate than it is bicarbonate. The sodium carbonate is not a buffer on its own, but when it is mixed with sodium bicarbonate it becomes a buffer.
The buffer most everyone uses is a blended carbonate and bicarbonate that is made to raise your pH up 8.4 and no higher even if you overdose it and dKH is at 15, your pH should be 8.4 maybe 8.5 for a minute then down to 8.4. It should stay there until it’s depleted to maybe 9 or 10 before the pH starts to go down to 8.3-8.2 depending on the tank. Using sodium bicarbonate will have a more measurable effect on total alkalinity, while only raising the pH of water slightly. Sodium carbonate will raise both pH and total alkalinity, but the effect on raising alkalinity is much less than a blended buffer. Seachem Reef Builder is heavier on carbonate to raise pH and their Reef Buffer is heavier bicarbonate for more effect on KH. If you like your pH where it is use Reef Buffer to raise your total alkalinity up to 10-12 pH may go up to 8.3 but that’s exactly my target on pH and KH. Unless you have a calcium reactor, it’s probably where a lot more tanks should be so you’re not constantly drifting out of range on the low end on KH exactly as the water becomes more acidic.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ive been having problems keeping my kh stable i see it jump all over the place and i feel like it gets drained more then evrything else. Can anyone give me advice on what to do i am pretty new to reefing and dont want to wait until something goes wrong. In the pictures are my current parameters taken today a chart of my kh to see fluctuations and a look at my tank for reference. It is a red sea reefer 170 total water volume is 44 gallons including sump ask any questions and i will try my best to answer, i currently dose all for reef about 9ml per day split up into 2 times but like i said its harder to keep alk. Thank you evryone

That is exactly as expected. Alkalinity is always by far the fastest of the big three to deplete. The expected depletion ratio is about 2.8 dKH of alkalinity, 19 ppm of calcium, and 0-1 ppm of magnesium.

AFR is not the easiest method to dial in correctly becuase the alk doesn't show up immediately. That said, once you get a routine of adding enough and often enough, it will level out.

You may need to split up into more AFR doses per day, and perhaps could use a dosing pump.

 

[Ctovarg]

Thank you all for the quick responses and help i really appreciate it. I realize that with more coral the more evrything gets depleted right? So this means there is no correct answer and evryones tank is diffrent, and that evryoneshould have theirown personalplan for dosing their tanks. Can i dose all for reef to maintain evrything and then use kh buffer on top of it to just boost kh? Do you have any recommendations for a kh buffer that only boosts kh and ph?

 

[Ctovarg]

Coral Pro has super high alk, so that will spike you high after a water change. I'd recommend switching to their Reef Salt that is likely closer to the parameters you want to run and just rely on the AFR for your supplementation. You can dose all 9ml of your AFR at one time - no need to split it into two doses. The alk isn't ommediately available when you dose that product, it has to be broken down by bacteria to see an increase in alk. This is a pretty slow process. If you get into really high doses of AFR, then consider a doser.

Is it better for me to run the alk at 8 wich i think the red sea regular salt is or should i try and keep my alk at 12

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it better for me to run the alk at 8 wich i think the red sea regular salt is or should i try and keep my alk at 12

Optimal Parameters for a Coral Reef Aquarium: By Randy Holmes-Farley

[note: edited on 5/29/2022 to update the nitrate and phosphate sections with higher recommended levels.] One of the main roles of an aquarist with a coral reef aquarium is to ensure that the conditions are right for their tank inhabitants. There are many different attributes of the aquarium...

www.reef2reef.com

Alkalinity

Like calcium, many corals also use "alkalinity" to form their skeletons, which are composed primarily of calcium carbonate. It is generally believed that corals take up bicarbonate, convert it into carbonate, and then use that carbonate to form calcium carbonate skeletons. That conversion process is shown as:

HCO3- → CO3-- + H+

Bicarbonate → Carbonate + proton (which is released from the coral)

To ensure that corals have an adequate supply of bicarbonate for calcification, aquarists could just measure bicarbonate directly. Designing a test kit for bicarbonate, however, is somewhat more complicated than for alkalinity. Consequently, the use of alkalinity as a surrogate measure for bicarbonate is deeply entrenched in the reef aquarium hobby.

So, what is alkalinity? Alkalinity in a marine aquarium is simply a measure of the amount of acid (H+) required to reduce the pH to about 4.5, where all bicarbonate is converted into carbonic acid as follows:

HCO3- + H+ → H2CO3

The amount of acid needed is equal to the amount of bicarbonate present, so when performing an alkalinity titration with a test kit, you are counting the number of bicarbonate ions present. It is not, however, quite that simple since some other ions also take up acid during the titration. Both borate and carbonate also contribute to the measurement of alkalinity, but the bicarbonate dominates these other ions since they are generally lower in concentration than bicarbonate. So knowing the total alkalinity is akin to, but not exactly the same as, knowing how much bicarbonate is available to corals. In any case, total alkalinity is the standard that aquarists use for this purpose.

Unlike the calcium concentration, it is widely believed that certain organisms calcify more quickly at alkalinity levels higher than those in normal seawater. This result has also been demonstrated in the scientific literature, which has shown that adding bicarbonate to seawater increases the rate of calcification in some corals. Uptake of bicarbonate can consequently become rate limiting in many corals. This may be partly due to the fact that the external bicarbonate concentration is not large to begin with (relative to, for example, the calcium concentration, which is effectively about 5 times higher).

For these reasons, alkalinity maintenance is a critical aspect of coral reef aquarium husbandry. In the absence of supplementation, alkalinity will rapidly drop as corals use up much of what is present in seawater. Water changes are not usually sufficient to maintain alkalinity unless there is very little calcification taking place. Most reef aquarists try to maintain alkalinity at levels at or slightly above those of normal seawater, although exactly what levels different aquarists target depends a bit on the goals of their aquaria.

Interestingly, because some corals may calcify faster at higher alkalinity levels, and because the abiotic (nonbiological) precipitation of calcium carbonate on heaters and pumps also rises as alkalinity rises, the demand for alkalinity (and calcium) rises as the alkalinity rises. So an aquarist generally must dose more calcium and alkalinity EVERY DAY to maintain a higher alkalinity (say, 11 dKH) than to maintain 7 dKH. It is not just a one-time boost that is needed to make up that difference. In fact, calcification gets so slow as the alkalinity drops below 6 dKH that reef aquaria rarely get much below that point, even with no dosing: natural calcification has nearly stopped at that level.

In general, I suggest that aquarists maintain alkalinity between about 7-11 dKH (2.5 and 4 meq/L; 125-200 ppm CaCO3 equivalents). Many aquarists growing SPS corals and using Ultra Low Nutrient Systems (ULNS) have found that the corals suffer from burnt tips if the alkalinity is too high or changes too much. It is not at all clear why this is the case, but such aquaria are better served by alkalinity in the 7-8 dKH range.
As mentioned above, alkalinity levels above those in natural seawater increase the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate on warm objects such as heaters and pump impellers, or sometimes even in sand beds. This precipitation not only wastes calcium and alkalinity that aquarists are carefully adding, but it also increases equipment maintenance requirements and can damage a sand bed, hardening it into a chunk of limestone. When elevated alkalinity is driving this precipitation, it can also depress the calcium level. An excessively high alkalinity level can therefore create undesirable consequences.

I suggest that aquarists use a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system of some sort for routine maintenance. The most popular of these balanced methods include limewater (kalkwasser), calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors, and the two-part/three part additive systems.

For rapid alkalinity corrections, aquarists can simply use baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) or washing soda (sodium carbonate; baked baking soda) to good effect. The latter raises pH as well as alkalinity while the former has a very small pH lowering effect. Mixtures can also be used, and are what many hobby chemical supply companies sell as “buffersâ€. Most often, sodium carbonate is preferred, however, since most tanks can be helped by a pH boost.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you all for the quick responses and help i really appreciate it. I realize that with more coral the more evrything gets depleted right? So this means there is no correct answer and evryones tank is diffrent, and that evryoneshould have theirown personalplan for dosing their tanks. Can i dose all for reef to maintain evrything and then use kh buffer on top of it to just boost kh? Do you have any recommendations for a kh buffer that only boosts kh and ph?

Yes, but you should not need to use a buffer if you just match the AFR to the alk demand.

 

[Ctovarg]

Yes, but you should not need to use a buffer if you just match the AFR to the alk demand.

My concern with this is that it seems like alk gets used by my tank the most so if i dose all for reef in higher doses to get my alk up or to keep its stable im afraid that it will be more then i need to dose for mag and alk or even trace elements and i dont want that getting to high

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My concern with this is that it seems like alk gets used by my tank the most so if i dose all for reef in higher doses to get my alk up or to keep its stable im afraid that it will be more then i need to dose for mag and alk or even trace elements and i dont want that getting to high

That is normal and AFR accounts for that. Everyone makes this somewhat false assumption:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? By Randy Holmes-Farley Calcium and alkalinity are generally supplied to reef aquaria in order to offset losses caused by the formation of calcium carbonate. There are many ways to...

www.reef2reef.com

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater or All for Reef, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this, I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 59 dKH of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 8.4 dKH that it is allowed to drop to 5.6 dKH (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

Therefore, the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true demand imbalance.The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand.

 

[Ctovarg]

That is normal and AFR accounts for that. Everyone makes this somewhat false assumption:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? By Randy Holmes-Farley Calcium and alkalinity are generally supplied to reef aquaria in order to offset losses caused by the formation of calcium carbonate. There are many ways to...

www.reef2reef.com

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater or All for Reef, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this, I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 59 dKH of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 8.4 dKH that it is allowed to drop to 5.6 dKH (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

Therefore, the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true demand imbalance.The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand.

Thank yo so much, i appreciate evrything you and evryone else did to help. Thank you

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank yo so much, i appreciate evrything you and evryone else did to help. Thank you

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing!