Interceptor, Ivermectin, & Coral Boring Spionid Worms.

[Reefahholic]

Also, just for the record. The 4-6 drops of Ivermectin I used per 473 mL was probably more than enough. Everything died within 45-1 hr. Yes…1 hr.

Here is the potency of that product. So I’m thinking very little is needed if somebody dose a in-tank treatment. Maybe like 2mL per 100/G and see what happens within 24-48 hrs.

 

[JCOLE]

It might be something I might try at that dose. My display is 480 gallons, and the total system is around 700 gallons, give or take. At 2–10 mL per 100 gallons, then one bottle should be able to treat the system.

I need to think about it though, as I don't have "pests," just things that are annoying. I do have spionid worms and vermitids, but not on every coral. I do have a ton of micro-brittle stars that are in every crevice of the tank.

However, I do have a packed tank of Acropora, and I need to explore some of these options. This definitely sounds like the most promising treatment so far.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

If this treatment kills vermited, I would probably do it. I'd want to set up a separate tank to put in my clams.

I think the flip side of this would be to restock the tank with beneficial microfauna. Perhaps have an order ready to go from IPSF and seeded sand from an established tank.

I'd also be concerned with what else ivermectin disrupts. Would it cause any harm to bacteria? What gets thrown off balance?

I'm going to discuss this with a few buddies and see if one is in a position to do this in an isolated established system.

 

[Reefahholic]

If this treatment kills vermited, I would probably do it. I'd want to set up a separate tank to put in my clams.

I think the flip side of this would be to restock the tank with beneficial microfauna. Perhaps have an order ready to go from IPSF and seeded sand from an established tank.

I'd also be concerned with what else ivermectin disrupts. Would it cause any harm to bacteria? What gets thrown off balance?

I'm going to discuss this with a few buddies and see if one is in a position to do this in an isolated established system.

Definitely would be nice if somebody could treat a smaller QT first. Every system will have a different amount of die-off. It will be a lot for sure. The crazy thing is that after that guy did the 15mL to 90/G dose…he dosed two additional smaller doses. None of the acros died. He said the acros and everything recovered in basically 1 hr. The fish had issues though. It took 3 days for the fish to recover. I’m wondering if it had a significant impact on oxygen levels.? I tried to reply to that thread on their forum, but some weird error occurred, and it wouldn’t let me post. My guess is that a much smaller dose will achieve the same results (might take a little longer) and reduce the impact on the fish. Remember, for my 1% Ivermectin… 2mL’s treats 220 lbs. That 2mL dose in the water should be absorbed by everything taking in water or breathing. I’m honestly surprised that the anemone wasn’t affected.

I think one of the biggest things is being able to manage the die off effectively. It’s kinda like adding some LR to a tank w/o curing it, but probably not as bad, because you can siphon and net things floating before they break down and cause large spikes. A lot of the stuff will crawl out of the rocks when it’s dying unlike live rock that is shipped. I believe a lot of the stuff dies in the rock because it has nowhere to swim or go inside wet newspaper. However, It’s the stuff that does die inside the rocks that will become a problem. Honestly, how many people have large fish and snails die in there system that they never find. Surely that has similarly effects. Both are die off’s. When I’ve lost bigger fish that died inside the rocks I remember seeing my glass start growing green algae as the nutrients spiked.

I think you would need something like the following:

Have some bacteria ready to go like Dr. Tim’s One and Only & Waste Away, Fritz Turbo Start, MB Start XLM, etc…

Long “fine mesh” net to scoop things out near the bottom and top. Having a garbage can ready by tank to throw dead crap in would be helpful.

Siphon hose ready to go.

Fresh filter socks or wool already in. (Might be good idea to block overflow with wool so dead crap doesn’t go down and get stuck in the drain chamber.?)

Run a PowerFilter at the same time to help with clean up.

Have water change water ready to go.

Turn skimmer down completely to reduce overflowing when turned back on.

Turn off auto-feeders and don’t feed the fish for 3-4 days or so.

Have new carbon ready to deploy.

Maybe turn down Alk prior to treatment. If dosing nutrients- stop all dosing. Be ready to test 3x daily watching for slowing consumption or nutrient spikes. However, this would be different for each system depending on the volume of critters, and some systems may see very minimal impacts if things are removed prior or if they don’t have many critters to begin with. Depends a lot on system age.


For example…

My system would have dead Bristle worms, Limpet snails, Spionid’s, Amphipods, and regular pods. I don’t have much more in there that will die, but I’m sure some nice surprises will show up. Lol. If the fish are not fed for about a week before, they might help take care of some die off if they don’t get stunned.

Also remember, you have about 12-24 hrs to net/ siphon these dead worms, snails, pods, etc…before they break down and become a problem. The more you can remove the less of a issue it will be.

If it were me….I’d probably dose the Dr Tim’s One and Only about 10 -12 hrs in. The One and Only will have basically zero effect on nutrient levels. Very safe! Since I’m already dosing Organic Carbon I’m sure that will help manage the NO3 level. I already have a solid bacteria population that should be able to handle a significant amount of die off. I’d also dose some Waste Away about 24 hrs in to help boost the process, because he saw the NO3 spike on day 2.

The question is how would Ivermectin effect the bacteria load and would it matter? All these people treating their whole systems with Ciprofloxacin which is a very broad spectrum gram negative antibiotic. They don’t seem to have any issues at all, and I know it’s killing a massive amount of bacteria. Would all these bacteria be suppressed or killed by Ivermectin? Do we really need the bacteria? Would the dead worms and pods cause a nutrient spike due to their lack of scavenging?

From what I see in his documentation is that he had a 10ppm NO3 spike on day 2. That needs to be mitigated as much as possible, because a 10ppm NO3 spike “could” slow down Alk consumption, “could” cause Alk to spike, and “could” cause PO4 to spike. Also remember his 10ppm NO3 spiked happened with water changes being done, but I’m confused about how much he actually did? He said he lost 1/4 of the water from the skimmer overflowing and replaced it, and then mentions he did a 20% water change later. So 42.5 gallons?

Funny thing was that in 1 month the corals were growing faster than ever, better PE, and color. Lol. People say the same after they dose Cipro. I’m wondering if it killed a lot of the bad bacteria in his system.?

 

[PeterErc]

Ivermectin would probably kill nudi’s too. Montipora eating nudibranch are a show stopper and I would have dosed the frag system before throwing out all the monti. Unfortunately that system is no longer.

I bet someone with the euphyllia eating nudi’s might give this a try. If something was killing the colony of “ holy grail”,.

I don’t have enough pests to try this. I would be concerned that it may not kill all the vermetid. If they are closed up tight in the shell the meds won’t get to them. I had live rock that went through 24 hour bleach, acid wash then dried out. Some of the vermetids were still alive. These were the bigger ones, not the little dog pile looking ones.
Calcinus tibicen eats the smaller ones in a 36 gallon tank. Rock from an acquired break down was full of them. Took a while, but one hermit knocked them down.

 

[Reefahholic]

I had live rock that went through 24 hour bleach, acid wash then dried out. Some of the vermetids were still alive.

Can you believe I don’t have one Vermetid in this system. Literally not even one. It took work! Was so happy to see the Acro’s base beautifully, but then realized the Spionid’s are getting in the bases just like Vermetid. Heh…you can’t win in this hobby!

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

My buddy dosed ivermectin to one of his lowboy frag tanks. Full of sps and fish. He isolated the frag tank from the entire system.

He dosed 6.6ml to 36g of water (0.2ml per gallon). He then left it in the tank for an hour, did 100% water change and added carbon to remove any ivermectin. He then added the tank back to the rest of the system.

1st day observation was a wrasse looked stressed but the rest of the fish seemed fine.

2nd day observation, all the spoinids are still missing in action. All pods and snails dead. He said other fish are showing signs of stress and is worried he might lose most of the fish but as of right now they're still alive.

This was a very cautious approach, although he went very heavy on the ivermectin.

The next step is to isolate another frag tank and lower the dose to 2ml per 100g which for 36 gallons is 0.72 and leave it in for 30 minutes. He's going to do another 100% waterchange this time and based on the results, he's going to work towards leaving the ivermectin in and allow it to dissipate in the tank on its own.

More to come hopefully

 

[JCOLE]

My buddy dosed ivermectin to one of his lowboy frag tanks. Full of sps and fish. He isolated the frag tank from the entire system.

He dosed 6.6ml to 36g of water (0.2ml per gallon). He then left it in the tank for an hour, did 100% water change and added carbon to remove any ivermectin. He then added the tank back to the rest of the system.

1st day observation was a wrasse looked stressed but the rest of the fish seemed fine.

2nd day observation, all the spoinids are still missing in action. All pods and snails dead. He said other fish are showing signs of stress and is worried he might lose most of the fish but as of right now they're still alive.

This was a very cautious approach, although he went very heavy on the ivermectin.

The next step is to isolate another frag tank and lower the dose to 2ml per 100g which for 36 gallons is 0.72 and leave it in for 30 minutes. He's going to do another 100% waterchange this time and based on the results, he's going to work towards leaving the ivermectin in and allow it to dissipate in the tank on its own.

More to come hopefully

I am looking forward to the results. I have Ivermectin and am waiting for a good dosing regimen before adding it to my system.

I was thinking of taking a 10 or 20-gallon tank and setting up a temporary QT tank. I will take one rock with a coral that has spionids and start with a very low dose and work my way up until I found the smallest and safest dose I could use until it killed them.

I will more than likely do this anyway before dosing my full system.

 

[Reefahholic]

I am looking forward to the results. I have Ivermectin and am waiting for a good dosing regimen before adding it to my system.

I was thinking of taking a 10 or 20-gallon tank and setting up a temporary QT tank. I will take one rock with a coral that has spionids and start with a very low dose and work my way up until I found the smallest and safest dose I could use until it killed them.

I will more than likely do this anyway before dosing my full system.

I say dose it drop by drop. You never know…dosing 1 drop in 100/G might be enough to kill them and other pests if it’s left in the system. We may not need a larger dose. Whatever the dose turns out to be, it’s probably gonna be very small. That’s my game plan if I do it. Just the thought of having all these darn Limpet snails out where I can slide frag plugs around freely on the bottom of the tank would make me extremely happy. Limpet snails are harmless, but super annoying.

He said other fish are showing signs of stress and is worried he might lose most of the fish but as of right now they're still alive.

That guy said his fish recovered on day 3. Hopefully his will pull through.

Super pumped he tired this on his frag system. Props! I bet the 2mL dose will still be effective. Tell him to try 1mL first and leave it in. Can you imagine if this literally kills all of our pests safely with a micro dose. We already see micro dosing Fluconazole works quite well. This would be the icing on the cake. Did he say how his Vermetid snails reacted? Too bad it has such a negative effect on fish. I wish he could measure the dissolved oxygen before and after the dose. If it’s not oxygenation, it might be a direct effect. It has no negative effect on animals so I’m kinda surprised how harsh it is on the fish. Maybe we’re just completely overdosing. Tell him to leave the skimmer on and let it overflow this time or run a large air stone. Maybe that will help. I have a feeling it’s pulling the oxygen down. That would make sense why that guys fish recovered on day 3 as it started to degrade.

Following for the ride!

 

[Reefahholic]

If it were me, I’d move the fish to a QT tank with air stone if they’re stunned and get them out of the medication. Should be easy to catch them.

I wish somebody could test the low oxygen theory. Hypoxia is no joke. Does anybody have a dissolved oxygen meter and a bottle of ivermectin laying around. We should be able to test this fairly easily.

@Humblefish might be able to help.

 

[carmodpg]

This is all great stuff! I am still curious about the aqua biotics stuff, as it is apparently advertised to be an in-tank treatment. Seems to go against what some others have reported when dosing Ivermectin directly into their tanks. I may reach out to the company for some clarity. Maybe it is a lot less potent.

 

[Reefahholic]

This is all great stuff! I am still curious about the aqua biotics stuff, as it is apparently advertised to be an in-tank treatment. Seems to go against what some others have reported when dosing Ivermectin directly into their tanks. I may reach out to the company for some clarity. Maybe it is a lot less potent.

Ivermectin is definitely not reef safe, but the other product will likely not work.

 

[Reefahholic]

My buddy dosed ivermectin to one of his lowboy frag tanks. Full of sps and fish. He isolated the frag tank from the entire system.

He dosed 6.6ml to 36g of water (0.2ml per gallon). He then left it in the tank for an hour, did 100% water change and added carbon to remove any ivermectin. He then added the tank back to the rest of the system.

1st day observation was a wrasse looked stressed but the rest of the fish seemed fine.

2nd day observation, all the spoinids are still missing in action. All pods and snails dead. He said other fish are showing signs of stress and is worried he might lose most of the fish but as of right now they're still alive.

This was a very cautious approach, although he went very heavy on the ivermectin.

The next step is to isolate another frag tank and lower the dose to 2ml per 100g which for 36 gallons is 0.72 and leave it in for 30 minutes. He's going to do another 100% waterchange this time and based on the results, he's going to work towards leaving the ivermectin in and allow it to dissipate in the tank on its own.

More to come hopefully

Any updates on this? Did the fish make it? What happened in the other display that the frag system was tied into?

Also, did he treat the other tank yet or decided not to?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Any updates on this? Did the fish make it? What happened in the other display that the frag system was tied into?

Also, did he treat the other tank yet or decided not to?

Ahh, I meant to post about the ivermectin treatment follow up.

So that huge amount of ivermectin that he dosed, eventually killed all the fish in that tank. I believe it was around the 4 day mark. He said the skin was peeling off the fish and he had to euthanize a few of them.

And low and behold a week later he was still seeing spionids. He pulled some acros out and dipped them in some moonshine dip (I can't recall what it was called) and he was pulling large worms out as they were drooping from their tube.

It's safe to say, a high enough dose of ivermectin in tank to kill spionids would be too much for the fish to handle.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ahh, I meant to post about the ivermectin treatment follow up.

So that huge amount of ivermectin that he dosed, eventually killed all the fish in that tank. I believe it was around the 4 day mark. He said the skin was peeling off the fish and he had to euthanize a few of them.

And low and behold a week later he was still seeing spionids. He pulled some acros out and dipped them in some moonshine dip (I can't recall what it was called) and he was pulling large worms out as they were drooping from their tube.

It's safe to say, a high enough dose of ivermectin in tank to kill spionids would be too much for the fish to handle.

Well… that is depressing. Sorry to hear that. Props to him for trying. So what about the tank in general. How is it doing after all the die off? Did it wreck the stability or just the fish.? The other guy said his tank did much better, and all the acro’s never looked so good. He even dosed again. Guess I’d need to remove all my fish if I did it.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Yeah, he said the corals weren't effected. And he reattached the frag tank back to all the others so there was no telling what the outcome would have been otherwise.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yeah, he said the corals weren't effected. And he reattached the frag tank back to all the others so there was no telling what the outcome would have been otherwise.

Well that’s good. Spionid worms are apparently as bulletproof as Vermetid snails. At least we know that Ivermectin will for sure get them in a fishless system if done cautiously and carefully with the correct dose and duration.

 

[KrisReef]

That's great to see again. The calculator is for red bugs and seem to follow what everyone is suggestion as the traditional dose. I'm sure, his contribution can be accredited as the foundation for treating for red bugs.


I'm treating for white bugs, where the dose is more potent. Reefoholic is dosing for spionid worms which seems a to require even more.

Are you saying you do this in your main tank? Of are we talking about a coral qt tank?

And if it's in the main tank, how often are you getting new corals?



Can you clarify what you're saying here? It's either missing a word or a word is accidentally used in place of another to make it ambiguous.



Currently, I'm comfortable doubling my dose. If Charlie frag responds in time, I will consider upping it even more.

As of right now I'm going to toss in a box of interceptor (6 pills 23mg each) in my 350g this evening.

Reefoholic, based on your observation of these spionid worms, can you tell me if they prefer to be out at certain times of the light cycle? Do they hole up at certain times?

I'm asking so that I can figure out the best time to introduce the medication.

I know someone said that light degrades the medication, how true is this? I don't think I've associated that with milbemycin and wondering if that's a concern that was carried over from antibiotics??

I wonder if adding amino's or planktonic items either just prior or along with the meds would encourage the worms to filter feed and eat their final meals?

 

[MoshJosh]

I recorded it with Ivermectin. See below:

Awesome, I may have missed it, but was there any follow up on the pieces from this dip? Did any of the worms recover? How are the frags doing?

 

[MoshJosh]

Definitely time. Join in!

Wait did I miss something? Was there also a treatment for vermetids now?