HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

[areefer01]

Yeah, but did you see how vivid his colors got after he started the method. His growth blew up too. You can go back and look at earlier videos and compare. Staff or not, it was working.

I honestly don't know what they are doing there but I also don't equate it to the more traditionalist hobbyist. I do not mean that with any disrespect but it is different and on a different scale is all I am saying. I mean are all of the corals grown out from 1/4" frags like most of us or are they purchasing at 5" or 10" which equates to months if not years of growth. Thinking on it I do believe a 1/4" frag would get lost in 17,000 gallons of water right?

But again I'm not saying it doesn't work. In fact I don't think many here did. I think the conversation sort of morphed into this debate about additive based reef keeping based off ICP results and trends vs more traditional approaches and which is best. Or at least trying to say why one is better than the other in a odd way.

I don't believe there is one better than the other and that you would be successful regardless of what system you ran. But that is just my opinion.

 

[rtparty]

Yes. Many people selling corals are absolute pros using different programs for color enhancements and backgrounds. The corals will probably look much different than when you receive them. You just now finding this out bro?

I wasn’t talking about many people. I specifically named off vendors who have a pretty good reputation and have been getting crazy good colors long before ICP and trace element dosing was ever a thing.

My question is how they did/do it?

 

[Reefahholic]

I honestly don't know what they are doing there but I also don't equate it to the more traditionalist hobbyist. I do not mean that with any disrespect but it is different and on a different scale is all I am saying. I mean are all of the corals grown out from 1/4" frags like most of us or are they purchasing at 5" or 10" which equates to months if not years of growth. Thinking on it I do believe a 1/4" frag would get lost in 17,000 gallons of water right?

But again I'm not saying it doesn't work. In fact I don't think many here did. I think the conversation sort of morphed into this debate about additive based reef keeping based off ICP results and trends vs more traditional approaches and which is best. Or at least trying to say why one is better than the other in a odd way.

I don't believe there is one better than the other and that you would be successful regardless of what system you ran. But that is just my opinion.

For sure he’s adding pretty large colonies in that system, because as you mentioned a 2” frag would be lost in 17,000 gallons. I think a lot of his success has also come from the amount of fish in there. The corals are certainly being fed extremely well. However, do you agree that correcting elements that are low are depleted makes a lot of sense.

 

[Reefahholic]

I wasn’t talking about many people. I specifically named off vendors who have a pretty good reputation and have been getting crazy good colors long before ICP and trace element dosing was ever a thing.

My question is how they did/do it?

I told you, these are all old school pros. Why can’t you pull their colors?

 

[Reefahholic]

The forums are not the entirety of the reefing world.

Yes, Reef Beef plays an important role.

 

[Reefahholic]

I mean sailing in any methodologies direction, not just ICP

What is your current methodology?

 

[Reefahholic]

But no one is really saying that. Some are trying to reduce a nuanced discussion into that, but no one is saying that. That was one of the reactions of the ICP article we did in 2015, and we weren't saying it then either.

So you’re saying you’re for ICP testing and it’s smart to correct depleted elements. Thank you. We finally agree.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Exactly, and that’s why it can’t outperform.

That’s an odd comment. Since it does not claim to supplement trace elements, it’s a perfect way to supplement alk and calcium, and leave all the other stuff to trace and minor element supplements.

 

[Thales]

Yes, Reef Beef plays an important role.

Nah, we are a small niche show. The point is it is a real mistake to think that fourms represent the entirety of the reefing commuinity.

 

[Thales]

What is your current methodology?

You read my post in the other thread?

 

[Reefahholic]

That’s an odd comment. Since it does not claim to supplement trace elements, it’s a perfect way to supplement alk and calcium, and leave all the other stuff to trace and minor element supplements.

Very true. It is a excellent 2-part product with, as Bob Stark would put it, “Just a pinch of trace elements.”

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So you’re saying you’re for ICP testing and it’s smart to correct depleted elements. Thank you. We finally agree.

I know you were not directing that at me, but I think it is clear that icp testing and dosing has not yet proven itself to be better than judicial dosing of the same components.

It might be better, or not.

The range of acceptable levels of, say, vanadium , may be wide enough that one does not need any specific value. If that is true, and it unquestionably is true for some elements, then knowing exact values is not necessary.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very true. It is a excellent 2-part product with, as Bob Stark would put it, “Just a pinch of trace elements.”

Well, that’s a misleading description, IMO.

 

[jda]

If people want to brag and stuff, are montipora and austera (miyagi tort) the corals do to this with. Reminds me of sports dad who is excited that their kid dribbled one to the pitcher and with some overthrows makes it home and dad posts about a home run.... who has not seen an over the fence home run yet.

Seriously, anybody with any just beyond basic skills (like growing coralline well) should be doing well with those two until they get colony size (like 14-16 inches or more) which does take more skill like any colony.

 

[Reefahholic]

I know you were not directing that at me, but I think it is clear that icp testing and dosing has not yet proven itself to be better than judicial dosing of the same components.

It might be better, or not.

The range of acceptable levels of, say, vanadium , may be wide enough that one does not need any specific value. If that is true, and it unquestionably is true for some elements, then knowing exact values is not necessary.

I agree with most of that, nobody really knows the perfect ranges. That’s why all the ranges are different for every lab. Everybody kind of does their own research or trial and error to figure out what works best for them. I think that we have it pinned down pretty well, but there’s still some elements that may be slightly better higher or lower. As far as a safety standpoint, you’re not hearing anybody complaining about doses crashing their tank or longterm issues. There is one dose of something and I can’t remember what it was offhand, but it tends to affect LPS slightly if it’s dosed all at one time. I believe that we may have added more correction days, but I can’t remember.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well, that’s a misleading description, IMO.

Randy, you yourself know I’ve talked to Bob many times. I’ve posted it in this forum. I’m pretty sure I know what’s in ESV. Of course I’m not going to list the full description, but in a nutshell ESV is the only “true” 2-part on the market, and it contains some mild ratios of trace elements.

If I got that wrong, please educate me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, you yourself know I’ve talked to Bob many times. I’ve posted it in this forum. I’m pretty sure I know what’s in ESV. Of course I’m not going to list the full description, but in a nutshell ESV is the only “true” 2-part on the market, and it contains some mild ratios of trace elements.

If I got that wrong, please educate me.

I think a better way to describe what is does is to add calcium and alkalinity, and raises salinity a tiny bit, just like doing a tiny water change with natural seawater every day.

I actually think it misleads many reefers when they see it contains trace elements. While I would not want to lie to any user, I think beginning reefers are better off not knowing it has any since they are not there to supplement against consumption.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well, that’s a misleading description, IMO.

There you go Randy. Just like I said above.

 

[Reefahholic]

I think a better way to describe what is does is to add calcium and alkalinity, and raises salinity a tiny bit, just like doing a tiny water change with natural seawater every day.

I actually think it misleads many reefers when they see it contains trace elements. While I would not want to lie to any user, I think beginning reefers are better off not knowing it has any since they are not there to supplement against consumption.

Well, let’s see what Bob Says:

Hi Jared,

B-Ionic Calcium Buffer is a complete ionically balanced 2 part meaning the residual ions left behind (after the calcium and carbonate alkalinity dosed to an aquarium is removed by calcification) duplicate all the important major, minor, and trace elements of an artificial seawater mix in their correct ratios. The product was developed in 1995 to address the issue of a slow trend toward ionic imbalance when using just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate. In that situation the residual ions left behind after calcification would just be sodium and chloride. As salinity was corrected, the tank water would drift more and more towards just being a sodium chloride solution thereby lowering the concentration of some important elements. Water changes would slow down that process. In a nutshell, when you add equal amounts of our two components, you are adding highly concentrated, balanced amounts of calcium and alkalinity along with a pinch of an artificial seawater mix. With calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate additions, you are also adding highly concentrated calcium and alkalinity, but with a pinch of just sodium chloride instead. Given that, with B-Ionic 2 part all the important ions of an artificial seawater mix are being added daily (including magnesium) but there is no possibility of overdosing any of those residual ions as long as salinity is maintained. If the salinity of the system rises, and tank water must be removed and replaced with RO/DI water, then that is in essence a small water change where the salt mix was the residual ions of our 2 part. That small "water change" can be effective at helping to stabilize certain ions that tend to drop over time in addition to calcium and alkalinity. For example magnesium and potassium. Magnesium is going into the system as part of the residual seawater ions, but that addition may not be enough to keep up with the system's demands. Other ions may not be supplied in enough quantity with these residual ions, such as iodide, strontium, and the transition metals iron, manganese, and zinc. For this reason we have separate supplements for magnesium, iodide, strontium, and our Transition Elements additive which contains iron, manganese, and zinc). Our magnesium supplement is not a 3rd part of our B-Ionic 2 part, and should only be added as testing dictates. In the systems at ESV we test for magnesium once per month and find B-Ionic 2 part keeps the levels fairly stable so supplemental addition is only occasionally called for. Many hobbyists I speak with are surprised to hear this because some other products introduced later to the market are true 3 part systems where the magnesium is in a third component presumably because they use magnesium sulfate which would be incompatible in either the calcium component (calcium sulfate would precipitate) or the alkalinity component (magnesium carbonate would precipitate). We were able to simplify things and incorporate the magnesium and sulfate within the two parts by using different magnesium and sulfate salts that are compatible with the calcium and alkalinity components. Regarding concentrations you are correct, the alkalinity component is 2800 meq/Liter (7840 dKH). The calcium component is 62,752 mg/L. The magnesium in the two part is in the calcium component, and it's concentration is proprietary but remember, you can't overdose magnesium by using B-Ionic 2 part as long as the aquarium salinity is maintained because the magnesium ions are in the correct artificial seawater ratio with the other residual ions. If the magnesium does test low due to high demand (aquariums with a high bioload of coralline algae for example), we have a separate B-Ionic Magnesium supplement only to be used as needed. The concentration of that product is 36,000 ppm magnesium. I hope this info helps clear things up and thanks for your questions, kind words, and interest in the product. Next year B-Ionic Calcium Buffer turns 25 years old!


Best Regards,

Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.

————————————————-

Hi Jared,

I'm glad the B-Ionic 2 Part is working out for you and thanks for spreading the word! You are correct in that the amount of certain elements provided by the product may not keep up with demand, although significant trace elements are added to our systems simply by feeding. Depending on how much of the 2 part is added, certain major elements can stay in the ballpark with the 2 part alone..like magnesium, potassium, and sulfate. Others, as you suggest, are probably not being added in sufficient quantity so we suggest once per week additions of our B-Ionic Strontium and B-Ionic Iodide. In addition, for tanks over 4 months old and more populated, we recommend daily additions of our B-Ionic Transition Elements which provide very low doses of Iron, Manganese, and Zinc. We also have a Transition Elements Plus product that supplies the same amounts of these elements but also adds citric acid and ascorbic acid for carbon dosing if the aquarist is battling higher nitrates. I'm not too keen on supplying trace elements which can be required by non calcifying inhabitants (macro algae and soft corals) based on calcification rates alone, but I see some of the logic behind it. My guess is the Red Sea Colors are probably safe to use with our B-Ionic, but don't know enough about their product line to say with absolute certainty. All of the above mentioned ESV additives, in addition to the 2 Part, have been formulated to fall a little under the radar of trace element overdose and based on our testing and feedback from customers who have run ICP, we are confident the dosages are safe. Hope this info helps and thanks again for using our products!

Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.

 

[Reefahholic]

Nah, we are a small niche show. The point is it is a real mistake to think that fourms represent the entirety of the reefing commuinity.

Agreed